"LDS Church: Legal analysis raises concerns about Utah medical marijuana initiative"

[The Nehor]

On 5/11/2018 at 7:12 PM, provoman said:

And it impunes the ethics of Utah Doctors to suggest that they will advise marijuana uasage willy-nilly

Every other medical marijuana state has found doctors willing to prescribe on a wily-nilly basis. Are Utah doctors of a superior more ethical beeed then those quacks elsewhere?

[cacheman]

4 hours ago, Exiled said:

Would you agree that criminalizing a product such as alcohol or marijuana gives a monopoly to the violent criminals that sell the illegal product? This seems to be an obvious fact missed by the prohibition crowd.

Other than advertizing regulation, how would you regulate the industry? It seems to me that if it is legalized, licenses should be relatively easy and cheap to get otherwise the incentives for corruption are still there.

My ideas for regulation are not very practical in our current social and political climate.  I would like to see Cannabis flowers treated like other herbs or botanical medicines. The FDA would still have some regulatory power,  but it wouldn't be expected to comply with the stringent treating that pharmaceuticals would.  I would be fine with concentrates and commercial isolates and extracts being subjected to more rigorous clinical trials,  but not whole plant material.  I believe that home cultivation needs to be a party of any legalization efforts. 

We could still criminally penalize harms to others due to abuse or irresponsible use of the plant.  The penalties should be severe enough to dissuade folks from irresponsible use.  

I don't think any of that will happen anytime soon though.  I have some experience in the political arena on this subject,  and there are still educational and cultural hurdles that need to be overcome.  

[pogi]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Every other medical marijuana state has found doctors willing to prescribe on a wily-nilly basis. Are Utah doctors of a superior more ethical beeed then those quacks elsewhere?

In fact, the opioid epidemic can be partly blamed on willy-nilly doctors overly prescribing highly addicting drugs for mild-moderate pain with endless refills.  Further restrictions have made it more difficult, but the fact that the restrictions were necessary in the first place speaks loudly of the quality of many doctors out there. 

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, pogi said:

In fact, the opioid epidemic can be partly blamed on willy-nilly doctors overly prescribing highly addicting drugs for mild-moderate pain with endless refills.  Further restrictions have made it more difficult, but the fact that the restrictions were necessary in the first place speaks loudly of the quality of many doctors out there. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/welcome-williamson-w-va-where-there-are-6-500-opioid-n843821

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Exiled said:

Would you agree that criminalizing a product such as alcohol or marijuana gives a monopoly to the violent criminals that sell the illegal product? This seems to be an obvious fact missed by the prohibition crowd.

Other than advertizing regulation, how would you regulate the industry? It seems to me that if it is legalized, licenses should be relatively easy and cheap to get otherwise the incentives for corruption are still there.

The prohibition of murder means criminals have a monopoly on assassinations.

If we created some legalized licenses to be a legitimate hit man that are easy and cheap to get the criminals would not control the industry and we can regulate the excesses.

[Exiled]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The prohibition of murder means criminals have a monopoly on assassinations.

If we created some legalized licenses to be a legitimate hit man that are easy and cheap to get the criminals would not control the industry and we can regulate the excesses.

I guess on that note, as long as we are talking extremes, should we regulate everything?  Should scripture be changed to read that God should command in all things?

I don't think violent crime is on par with legalizing a plant.  However, criminalizing it seems to increase the need for your hit men among some.

[Exiled]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Every other medical marijuana state has found doctors willing to prescribe on a wily-nilly basis. Are Utah doctors of a superior more ethical beeed then those quacks elsewhere?

I think you assume illegality when whether legal or not is an arbitrary societal decision.  On what basis should medical marijuana remain illegal?  It seems to be a non-addictive pain reliever that may lower opioid addiction.  Further, how many doctors do you think prescribe opioids like they are candy?  I think it is settled that there is an opioid addiction problem and that comes to you, in part, from our beloved doctors who over-prescribe until addiction sets in to far too many.  So, if medical marijuana is a viable alternative, shouldn't we take a serious look at this?  I know I am for lowering accidental overdose, a problem that doesn't plague marijuana users, if at all, like it does the opioid user.  Sure, if it becomes legal, the police may not be able to track users of a legal product, just like they don't track those who buy and consume alcohol and perhaps all of rural Utah will become entrepreneurs in a new business and maybe reefer madness was right and Utah will have pot zombies roaming about.  However, I live in a state that legalized recreational use, and I just don't see the problems Kirton & McConkie raised.

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, cacheman said:

The scheduling actually came during the Nixon administration.  It was temporarily put as a schedule 1 drug pending the National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse (Shafer commission) report.  This commission was put together by President Nixon and consisted of physicians,  psychiatrists, lawyers, academics, and politicians (governors, senators, and representatives). The final report recommended taking it off schedule 1 and decriminalizing it.  Nixon ignored the report and kept it as is.

The Nixon tapes have confirmed that the war on drugs was a political tool meant to target blacks and the antiwar left.  It had certainly done that,  and in the process created a massive prison industrial complex.  Absent from a lot of the discussions about Cannabis legalization is the astounding amount of violence that had resulted from creating this 'forbidden fruit', and the many many stories of lost potential and ruined lives due to drug related incarcerations and broken families.

I understand the concerns for people's health and safety,  particularly with young people.  But,  we've got to look at the whole picture and ask ourselves if the way we've structured our laws and allocated our resources is in the best interest of society.  Knowing how ineffective the drug war has been, and the negative consequences of it,  I can't imagine why people wouldn't want to explore a drastic shift in our drug policy.  Add I've said before,  this is a moral issue in my opinion,  and lives hang in the balance. 

Well, I have to admit I am not up on the history of marijuana laws in the US. With just a little bit of searching I've found that the story about DuPont and William Hearst seems to have been popularized by pot activist Jack Herer's book The Emperor Wears No Clothes. This theory has some large flaws:

Perhaps first and foremost, the Hearst chain was actually the nation's largest purchaser of newsprint, but bought most of its paper -- and when the price rose from $40 a ton to over $50 in the late 1930s, he fell so deep in debt to Canadian paper producers and banks that he had to sell his prized art collection to avert foreclosure. "It therefore seems that it would have been in Hearst's interest to promote cheap hemp paper substitutes, had that been a viable alternative," Dale Gieringer wrote in his article, calling the hemp-conspiracy theory "fanciful" and a "myth."

The pattern of laws against marijuana suggest that it was illegalized as part of a cultural war. Hemp was the poor man's drug, and used by blacks. Fear of the spread of crime seems to have been an impetus for its becoming illegal - it seems to have become illegal first where there was a black majority of the population according to https://www.alternet.org/story/77339/debunking_the_hemp_conspiracy_theory 

I really don't know the history of marijuana becoming a schedule I drug, but I believe that is an irrational classification for something that doesn't seem too prone to overdosing or causing death. From what we have come to know about Cannabis it seems to have several chemicals with beneficial uses, and continuing to list it as a schedule I substance is counterproductive. Nevertheless, I am not one for straight out legalization due to known harmful effects this plant can have - especially when used by minors. If it were to become as popular as video games, I believe it would have a very detrimental affect on our society. I think that is a debate each state needs to have if they are thinking of legalizing cannabis. I think the public needs to be more aware of beneficial uses of cannabis and CBD, so that the stigma of "marijuana" doesn't carry over to true medical cannabis, which will not make one high. Then whether states want that sold as a standardized prescription drug or in a raw form at a dispensary can be decided. Forcing it to be processed into standardized pills or the like I think would definitely bring in cost issues.

So I do see room for significant legal changes with regards to pot, and was never for filling our prisons with pot dealers - it was an expensive, losing battle. But I personally favor states' illegalizing recreational use for which I really see no positive benefits. Rather than long-term prison sentences, they could impose hefty fines and use the money for public health purposes.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Exiled said:

I guess on that note, as long as we are talking extremes, should we regulate everything?  Should scripture be changed to read that God should command in all things?

I don't think violent crime is on par with legalizing a plant.  However, criminalizing it seems to increase the need for your hit men among some.

Job Creation!

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Exiled said:

I think you assume illegality when whether legal or not is an arbitrary societal decision.  On what basis should medical marijuana remain illegal?  It seems to be a non-addictive pain reliever that may lower opioid addiction.  Further, how many doctors do you think prescribe opioids like they are candy?  I think it is settled that there is an opioid addiction problem and that comes to you, in part, from our beloved doctors who over-prescribe until addiction sets in to far too many.  So, if medical marijuana is a viable alternative, shouldn't we take a serious look at this?  I know I am for lowering accidental overdose, a problem that doesn't plague marijuana users, if at all, like it does the opioid user.  Sure, if it becomes legal, the police may not be able to track users of a legal product, just like they don't track those who buy and consume alcohol and perhaps all of rural Utah will become entrepreneurs in a new business and maybe reefer madness was right and Utah will have pot zombies roaming about.  However, I live in a state that legalized recreational use, and I just don't see the problems Kirton & McConkie raised.

I don’t need a reasoned philosophical stance as to why it should be illegal. I just hate the smell.

[Exiled]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t need a reasoned philosophical stance as to why it should be illegal. I just hate the smell.

Fair enough. Although 4 out of 5 dentists surveyed loved the smell. 🤔

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, Exiled said:

Fair enough. Although 4 out of 5 dentists surveyed loved the smell. 🤔

Nine out of ten doctors are paid shills.

[Exiled]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Nine out of ten doctors are paid shills.

I agree with that. Big pharma and insurance controls too much of what doctors do.

[Tacenda]

https://www.learngreenflower.com/articles/66/50-life-enhancing-benefits-of-cannabis?gfm=true

The healing affects are endless. And read the comment section, real people. I can't believe anyone could even put it with smoking or alcohol, which are legal. 

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.learngreenflower.com/articles/66/50-life-enhancing-benefits-of-cannabis?gfm=true

The healing affects are endless. And read the comment section, real people. I can't believe anyone could even put it with smoking or alcohol, which are legal. 

I particularly like this one:

35. It Can Help Fight Climate Change

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I particularly like this one:

35. It Can Help Fight Climate Change

Are you serious about liking this one, or just being sarcastic? 😕

[RevTestament]

21 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Are you serious about liking this one, or just being sarcastic? 😕

Sorry, being a little sarcastic Tacenda. When it degrades, is burnt, or gets processed. it will release the CO2 back into the atmosphere. The main way CO2 is absorbed is by plankton and other ocean life, which fall to the bottom, and get mummified before releasing their CO2.  I'm not all that convinced that CO2 is the main driver of global warming either, but I do believe there is some relatively minor global warming going on. How much of that is attributable to CO2 is debatable. 

However, for multiple reasons, I am all for us getting off the fossil fuel habit. Without it our nation would be much better off politically, economically, and health wise as well. I don't see weed as any part of that picture. 

[Tacenda]

19 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Sorry, being a little sarcastic Tacenda. When it degrades, is burnt, or gets processed. it will release the CO2 back into the atmosphere. The main way CO2 is absorbed is by plankton and other ocean life, which fall to the bottom, and get mummified before releasing their CO2.  I'm not all that convinced that CO2 is the main driver of global warming either, but I do believe there is some relatively minor global warming going on. How much of that is attributable to CO2 is debatable. 

However, for multiple reasons, I am all for us getting off the fossil fuel habit. Without it our nation would be much better off politically, economically, and health wise as well. I don't see weed as any part of that picture. 

I understand, I don't believe all the hype quite yet, haha!

[provoman]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

I particularly like this one:

35. It Can Help Fight Climate Change

Yep, hemp oils, hemp paper, hemp rope, hemp clothing....so many uses from a single plant, while saving the trees to do the scrubbing of the atmosphere.

[Tacenda]

I'm sorry to inundate with my links on this board. It's my only outlet. I hesitate to share on social media because I don't want to give the message that I think it's okay for recreational use, although I wonder if it's probably going to go this route so that we don't have too much red tape and then people who need it for something specific won't be on the list to receive it, it's a real fine line to walk. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Tacenda

[california boy]

On 5/14/2018 at 9:36 PM, The Nehor said:

Every other medical marijuana state has found doctors willing to prescribe on a wily-nilly basis. Are Utah doctors of a superior more ethical beeed then those quacks elsewhere?

Every other state has found drug dealers willing to provide marijuana on a willy-nillyy basis.

Edited May 18, 2018 by california boy

[Marginal Gains]

Why is medicinal marijuana only an issue for the Church in Utah?

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said:

Why is medicinal marijuana only an issue for the Church in Utah?

Because they think they can control the vote with so many Mormons willing to follow the prophet on any issue.  Even if they have to use misinformation to do it.  

But then, I think you knew that.

[Marginal Gains]

2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Why is medicinal marijuana only an issue for the Church in Utah?

 

44 minutes ago, california boy said:

Because they think they can control the vote with so many Mormons willing to follow the prophet on any issue.  Even if they have to use misinformation to do it.  

But then, I think you knew that.

For a supposed global Church, they seem to be very insular in their vocal opposition to what they see as so-called moral issues. Did they, for instance, make a statement during the process for any of the states that now have medicinal marijuana available?

https://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000881

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, california boy said:

Every other state has found drug dealers willing to provide marijuana on a willy-nillyy basis.

That is a nasty stereotype. My drug dealer is a person of excellent character and utmost integrity.