LDS Church May Be Facing More Lawsuits Over Sexual Abuse And Inaction

[ALarson]

http://fox13now.com/2018/04/06/lds-church-could-face-more-lawsuits-over-abuse-and-inaction/
 

Quote

 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints could face more lawsuits alleging sexual abuse at the hands of ecclesiastical officials and inaction by authorities within the faith.

Activist groups and church critics said they have been approached recently by alleged abuse victims expressing interest in suing the LDS Church for not responding to their claims.

 

If this is true, there could be some dark days ahead for the church (and church leaders).  If these are actual, legitimate cases of sexual abuse and cover-up, maybe it'll be good to shine a light on this problem so that changes can be made to make sure they never happen again (or at least rarely happen in the future).

However, I don't like reading some of what is in this article (part I put in bold):

Quote

 

Fred Karger, a longtime critic of the LDS Church, said he has also been approached by alleged abuse victims through his MormonTips.com website. Karger told FOX 13 on Friday he refers them to police.

"The church has been under siege. Since Prop. 8, really," he said, referring to the LDS Church's involvement in the California ban on same-sex marriage.

Karger has been pushing for the LDS Church's tax-exempt status to be revoked. On Friday, he launched a "South Park" style cartoon series blasting the LDS Church's business practices and soliciting more dirt on the faith.

But Karger said he has seen some signs the LDS Church is making changes under President Russell M. Nelson.

 

 

There's also some information on the Mckenna Denson case in this article regarding how they want to depose Robert E. Wells,

Edited April 8, 2018 by ALarson

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

If this is true, there could be some dark days ahead for the church (and church leaders). 

Perhaps. "If."

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

If these are actual, legitimate cases of sexual abuse and cover-up, maybe it'll be good to shine a light on this problem so that changes can be made to make sure they never happen again (or at least rarely happen in the future).

Yep.

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

However, I don't like reading some of what is in this article (part I put in bold):

Quote

Karger has been pushing for the LDS Church's tax-exempt status to be revoked. On Friday, he launched a "South Park" style cartoon series blasting the LDS Church's business practices and soliciting more dirt on the faith.

There's also some information on the Mckenna Denson case in this artilce regarding how they want to depose Robert E. Wells,

Given the very poor quality of the case (from an evidentiary perspective), wanting to depose Elder Wells is not surprising.  I don't think it will happen.  The priest/penitent (or "confessional") privilege seems to be squarely applicable.

I'm not sure where Bro. Bishop spoke with Elder Wells about the issues in question.  If in Utah, then Rule 503 of the Utah Rules of Evidence comes into play (see also Rule 501 of the Federal Rules of Evidence):

Quote

(a)      Definitions.
-(1)   "Cleric" means a minister, priest, rabbi, or other similar functionary of a religious organization or an individual reasonably believed to be so by the person consulting that individual.
-(2)    "Confidential Communication" means a communication:
--(A)   made privately; and
--(B)   not intended for further disclosure except to other persons in furtherance of the purpose of the communication.
(b)   Statement of the Privilege. A person has a privilege to refuse to disclose, and to prevent another from disclosing, any confidential communication:
-(1)   made to a cleric in the cleric's religious capacity; and
-(2)   necessary and proper to enable the cleric to discharge the function of the cleric's office according to the usual course of practice or discipline.
(c)   Who May Claim the Privilege. The privilege may be claimed by:
-(1)   the person who made the confidential communication;
-(2)   the person's guardian or conservator;
-(3)   the person's personal representative if the person is deceased; and
-(4)   the person who was the cleric at the time of the communication on behalf of the communicant.

Thanks,

-Smac

[JulieM]

25 minutes ago, ALarson said:

http://fox13now.com/2018/04/06/lds-church-could-face-more-lawsuits-over-abuse-and-inaction/
 

If this is true, there could be some dark days ahead for the church (and church leaders).  If these are actual, legitimate cases of sexual abuse and cover-up, maybe it'll be good to shine a light on this problem so that changes can be made to make sure they never happen again (or at least rarely happen in the future).

However, I don't like reading some of what is in this article (part I put in bold):

 

There's also some information on the Mckenna Denson case in this artilce regarding how they want to depose Robert E. Wells,

I agree with all your thoughts here, Alarson.  If these are as legitimate and strong as the case that Mckenna has, it’s not going to be good for the church.

But there needs to be supporting evidence (such as in her case) and witnesses and supporting statements (again as she has with his past abusive patterns and a witness confirming the room in the MTC).  

If not, these will just appear to be piggyback cases, IMO.  

But I don’t doubt that there are more legitimate abuse cases out there.  Many of us personally know about cases where there was abuse and the perpetrator was protected and not punished (I have a family member who this happened to who left the church over it.)

I believe each case will have to be analyzed and reviewed before we will know how serious this is and how many there are that will be settled or go to trial.

Edited April 8, 2018 by JulieM

[ALarson]

25 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Perhaps. "If."

Yep.

Given the very poor quality of the case (from an evidentiary perspective), wanting to depose Elder Wells is not surprising.  I don't think it will happen.  The priest/penitent (or "confessional") privilege seems to be squarely applicable.

I'm not sure where Bro. Bishop spoke with Elder Wells about the issues in question.  If in Utah, then Rule 503 of the Utah Rules of Evidence comes into play (see also Rule 501 of the Federal Rules of Evidence):

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks for the info, Smac.

I disagree with you though regarding Denson's case being "very poor quality".  I think she has a very strong case and I believe the church leaders will move quickly to settle and keep it from going to court where more ugly details will be in the news.  As far as physical evidence, I agree that it's weak (it happened thirty years ago after all).  But considering the statements from others (and his own confession) plus the fact that someone came forward stating that there was a room such as the one she describes under the MTC, she'd have a very good chance of winning this case if it went to trial, IMO.  (And also, IMO, she should.)

Edited April 8, 2018 by ALarson

[JulieM]

It’s heartbreaking, but the sad truth is that there will be more sexual abuse and those who will prey on innocent victims.  

But if the church leaders can just set an example and lead the way in the future to protect the vulnerable, hold the abusers accountable, and stop any victim shaming, that would be an incredible thing to see.

I know steps are in place to already do this, but there needs to be more.

I am appalled at the victim shaming that is taking place from some members towards Mckenna Denson.  I wish the leaders would speak out and tell members to just STOP this now.  No matter how they feel about the case, this is horrible for members of the church to do.

Edited April 8, 2018 by JulieM

[provoman]

Concerning Densons case...I think it is a matter of how one views it.

Average person looks at - statement in audio seems to implicate him, 3 rd party statement that there is a room in the “basement”, confession to BYU pilice  about exposing breast.   It all seems to add up. 

BUT,

1. What is the statute of limitations for fraud regarding Bishops character and the safety of the MTC, (3/4 years; did she discover this in 1984 or 2017)
2. When did Denson disover that what she was lead to believe about Bishops character was not true? 1984 or 2017?
3. Did Densons attorneys file a frivilous lawsuit (statute of limitations for fraud is 3/4 years, and Bishops concealed character was manifest in 1984, which is 33 years ago statute of limitations is at most 4 years being 1988), 
4. If there was a confession to Wells or any other religious authority can wells be forced to speak?

Edited April 8, 2018 by provoman

[provoman]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

I agree with all your thoughts here, Alarson.  If these are as legitimate and strong as the case that Mckenna has, it’s not going to be good for the church.

But there needs to be supporting evidence (such as in her case) and witnesses and supporting statements (again as she has with his past abusive patterns and a witness confirming the room in the MTC).  

If not, these will just appear to be piggyback cases, IMO.  

But I don’t doubt that there are more legitimate abuse cases out there.  Many of us personally know about cases where there was abuse and the perpetrator was protected and not punished (I have a family member who this happened to who left the church over it.)

I believe each case will have to be analyzed and reviewed before we will know how serious this is and how many there are that will be settled or go to trial.

What victim shaming have you witnessed?

[Tacenda]

The church has paid millions in settlements, and these are just the ones in the headlines. People are suing because leaders let members be in callings where they shouldn't be, or many other scenarios. I hope the church takes a good look at this and starts to root out the problems. 

The money that is spent is pretty extent and that money could be better spent for humanitarian needs. I think the church needs to admit they're doing something wrong and go about changing it. 

One day there will be a movie about this, such as the Catholic church had about them, with the movie "Spotlight".

https://www.mormonstories.org/stories-about-child-sexual-abuse-in-the-lds-church/ This MS podcast has links to several cases, but this doesn't come close to how many there really are. 

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/6/60/INSTANCES_OF_CHILD_SEXUAL_ABUSE_ALLEGEDLY_PERPETRATED_BY_MEMBERS_OF_THE_CHURCH_OF_JESUS_CHRIST_OF_LATTER-DAY_SAINTS-2017-06.pdf

There's so many out there. 

[rpn]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

Given the very poor quality of the case (from an evidentiary perspective), wanting to depose Elder Wells is not surprising.  I don't think it will happen.  The priest/penitent (or "confessional") privilege seems to be squarely applicable.

I'm not sure where Bro. Bishop spoke with Elder Wells about the issues in question.  If in Utah, then Rule 503 of the Utah Rules of Evidence comes into play (see also Rule 501 of the Federal Rules of Evidence):

But so far I haven't seen any evidence that Elder Wells was ever serving as his bishop or stake president, which would clearly be within clergy/penitent rules because both determine worthiness and issue recommends.   Elder Wells apparently was a long time friend, who also recommended him to others for church leadership roles.   Just because you work for the church, or just because you are discussing religious issues, neither are enough to evoke the privilege that what you say in that conversation should be private; and since the only one who can actually resolve the disciplinary matter except your bishop and stake president, how could you claim that any other conversation is the kind that the privilege is created for?

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by rpn

[Storm Rider]

A strong light shining on is always better than keeping things in the dark.  No leader, regardless of their position in the Church, should ever be protected from taking responsibility for sexual abuse they committed.  We are a church that is based on the pursuit of holiness and righteousness in all that we do; even more so for its leaders.  

If there has been abuse then clean it up.  If there has been any degree of cover up then rip it off and cleanse the wound.  

[Calm]

Quote

someone came forward stating that there was a room such as the one she describes under the MTC

That someone was anonymous in the paper.  I just haven't been able to get in the mindset to finish listening to the press conference yet.  Do they have his identity (likely since he appeared to have employment papars...got to wonder why after 30 years, but maybe he kept them for personal history)and has he stated he is willing to testify?

Iirc, Elder Wells received the confession in Argentina when Bishop was an MP there....however, it is not a part of the tape he is most with it, quite vague and imprecise.  He talks about confessing about her to Wells when if the timing is right, obviously he couldn't because that came before the MTC.

Quote

You were never disfellowshipped, had a counsel?

Bishop:  I felt I'd repented. I'd confessed.
Oh.
Bishop:  That time.

You confessed about me?
Bishop:  l don't know about I confessed all of my sins to Elder Wells when I was in the mission. But anyway, let me apologize. ...

You were never called into a church council, church court, even after you confessed to Elder Wells, there was never a fellowship, nothing?

Bishop:  No I hadn't confessed all those things before Elder Wells, but wanted to redo it. I struggled to make sure that everything was taken care of. ...

Bishop:  Yeah. Years and years ago. And she had made the same thing you had done. I confessed. She had her problems, too. Poor [Green] But. Mine was the big problem....

Bishop:  When I confessed to Elder Wells in the mission field....

Bishop:  So in this process trying to save my soul [from the evil spirits that had latched on to him after he tried to save a sister missionary possessed by them], I said, "Okay, well, I need to tell you everything." And I went back as far back as memory could ... I think I talked about you.

You couldn't have 'cause you were MTC president after Argentina.

Bishop:  I think I...
Okay. 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by Calm

[Tacenda]

34 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

A strong light shining on is always better than keeping things in the dark.  No leader, regardless of their position in the Church, should ever be protected from taking responsibility for sexual abuse they committed.  We are a church that is based on the pursuit of holiness and righteousness in all that we do; even more so for its leaders.  

If there has been abuse then clean it up.  If there has been any degree of cover up then rip it off and cleanse the wound.  

Storm, totally agreement.

[JulieM]

3 hours ago, provoman said:

What victim shaming have you witnessed?

I don’t know if you’re on Facebook, but that’s where there is a lot of this going on by members of the church.  I’ve also heard some horrible things said in person.  This should not be a part of any discussion about this case, imo.

[Amulek]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

That someone was anonymous in the paper.  I just haven't been able to get in the mindset to finish listening to the press conference yet.  Do they have his identity (likely since he appeared to have employment papars...got to wonder why after 30 years, but maybe he kept them for personal history)and has he stated he is willing to testify?

There was no mention of this person in the press conference. And, if I am remembering the newspaper article correctly, his employment papers put him as a BYU employee after the time that Bishop was at the MTC. I'm not saying the room didn't exist; merely that the anonymous witness in the article may not get people everything they have been assuming.

 

Edited April 9, 2018 by Amulek

[Jeanne]

3 hours ago, JulieM said:

It’s heartbreaking, but the sad truth is that there will be more sexual abuse and those who will prey on innocent victims.  

But if the church leaders can just set an example and lead the way in the future to protect the vulnerable, hold the abusers accountable, and stop any victim shaming, that would be an incredible thing to see.

I know steps are in place to already do this, but there needs to be more.

I am appalled at the victim shaming that is taking place from some members towards Mckenna Denson.  I wish the leaders would speak out and tell members to just STOP this now.  No matter how they feel about the case, this is horrible for members of the church to do.

It will get more difficult for those who are speaking out now..with even a good case and proof..they will be subject to a "bandwagon" innuendo and the shaming will be more difficult to overcome.  That all being said..let the church be real upfront now if some issues are true..or the darkest hours..will become many days.

[provoman]

24 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I don’t know if you’re on Facebook, but that’s where there is a lot of this going on by members of the church.  I’ve also heard some horrible things said in person.  This should not be a part of any discussion about this case, imo.

No I am not on facebook. It is unfortunate what are referring too.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

A strong light shining on is always better than keeping things in the dark.  No leader, regardless of their position in the Church, should ever be protected from taking responsibility for sexual abuse they committed.  We are a church that is based on the pursuit of holiness and righteousness in all that we do; even more so for its leaders.  

If there has been abuse then clean it up.  If there has been any degree of cover up then rip it off and cleanse the wound.  

Amen.

[Tacenda]

deleted

Edited April 8, 2018 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

25 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

It will get more difficult for those who are speaking out now..with even a good case and proof..they will be subject to a "bandwagon" innuendo and the shaming will be more difficult to overcome.  That all being said..let the church be real upfront now if some issues are true..or the darkest hours..will become many days.

I agree, and I tend to think those that also were abused by Bishop may not come out if they are stalwart members because it might be like coming out against the church for them.

[readstoomuch]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

The church has paid millions in settlements, and these are just the ones in the headlines. People are suing because leaders let members be in callings where they shouldn't be, or many other scenarios. I hope the church takes a good look at this and starts to root out the problems. 

The money that is spent is pretty extent and that money could be better spent for humanitarian needs. I think the church needs to admit they're doing something wrong and go about changing it. 

One day there will be a movie about this, such as the Catholic church had about them, with the movie "Spotlight".

https://www.mormonstories.org/stories-about-child-sexual-abuse-in-the-lds-church/ This MS podcast has links to several cases, but this doesn't come close to how many there really are. 

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/6/60/INSTANCES_OF_CHILD_SEXUAL_ABUSE_ALLEGEDLY_PERPETRATED_BY_MEMBERS_OF_THE_CHURCH_OF_JESUS_CHRIST_OF_LATTER-DAY_SAINTS-2017-06.pdf

There's so many out there. 

Yes, the money would always be spent on something better than settling lawsuits.  Any organization has to pay out settlements.  I had a claim for workmen`s compensation for a shoulder injury that supposedly happened at my office.  It was not reported to me by her manager.  All of a sudden I was told she needed shoulder surgery and wanted to keep her job.  Not that she was claiming she got the injury at our office We worked with her to try and keep her job for six months.  That meant trying to hire part-time and temp employees.  After six months we just could just could not keep the spot open.  We were sued for discrimination because of the Americans with Disabilities Act.  Even though we were doing what our employment attorney said was the law.  Her manager had promised her something that she really didn`t have the authority to do and never let us know.  We ended up paying the Workmen`s Comp claim and another settlement where we did not admit fault, but still settled.  That is what our insurer recommended.  The state actually helps people file these claims and has legal help.  Our deductible was 5,000, so we paid most of the settlement.  Most of this because of her manager not following the guidelines.  The manager had to be let go, but as the owner of the business, it still cost me.  It was the opinion of the doctor from the insurance company that it was a preexisting injury that could not have happened with the type of work she was doing.  

I don’t think we have the problem that the Catholic Church has.  We do have a huge number of missionaries and lay leaders.  Potentially, all of these people are a liability.  Missionaries are greatly restricted in their activities to try and get around this liability.  Restrictions that in 1981-82 did not exist when I was a missionary.  There were plenty of rules though.  Mormons do bad things.  Sometimes people in positions of trust, betray it.  A local pastor that had interacted well with our ward and had some meetings together is in prison now for child pornography and sexual abuse.  To this day he denies the allegations and thinks he was framed.  It destroyed his Church.  

Organization and corporations have a huge amount of liability.  One of the reasons that more kiosks, robots and voice answering systems being used is to decrease the number of employees.  Employees get injuries or call in sick or may not perform their job well.  They are counseled, given warnings and we try to make it work for them.  We could have a whole other discussion about work ethic and the risks of owning a business.  Finding employees that are qualified, don`t constantly look at Facebook and show up can be very hard.  Owners and managers are responsible for what happens to the people under them and how they act.  The Q15 is probably torn apart by the situations they may hear about.  Some of these, even many of them may not have the merit that people imply.  I know I am torn apart when people do dumb things that work for me.  I get letters written to me complaining and continually work on customer service.  Then there are internet ratings of my company.  Can`t tell you how hard it is to get a totally unfair and bogus review that was removed.  The best you can do is respond.

So, please, please don`t start screaming at the top of your lungs about how many problems the Church has hidden out there.  There are certainly cases.  We can do better and should try-constantly.  Please think about what it is like to work with people and misunderstandings before blanket statements go out there.  MormonStories is not a balanced take on most issues in my experience.  Don`t you want balance and well thought out cases for two sides of an argument?  

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, readstoomuch said:

Yes, the money would always be spent on something better than settling lawsuits.  Any organization has to pay out settlements.  I had a claim for workmen`s compensation for a shoulder injury that supposedly happened at my office.  It was not reported to me by her manager.  All of a sudden I was told she needed shoulder surgery and wanted to keep her job.  Not that she was claiming she got the injury at our office We worked with her to try and keep her job for six months.  That meant trying to hire part-time and temp employees.  After six months we just could just could not keep the spot open.  We were sued for discrimination because of the Americans with Disabilities Act.  Even though we were doing what our employment attorney said was the law.  Her manager had promised her something that she really didn`t have the authority to do and never let us know.  We ended up paying the Workmen`s Comp claim and another settlement where we did not admit fault, but still settled.  That is what our insurer recommended.  The state actually helps people file these claims and has legal help.  Our deductible was 5,000, so we paid most of the settlement.  Most of this because of her manager not following the guidelines.  The manager had to be let go, but as the owner of the business, it still cost me.  It was the opinion of the doctor from the insurance company that it was a preexisting injury that could not have happened with the type of work she was doing.  

I don’t think we have the problem that the Catholic Church has.  We do have a huge number of missionaries and lay leaders.  Potentially, all of these people are a liability.  Missionaries are greatly restricted in their activities to try and get around this liability.  Restrictions that in 1981-82 did not exist when I was a missionary.  There were plenty of rules though.  Mormons do bad things.  Sometimes people in positions of trust, betray it.  A local pastor that had interacted well with our ward and had some meetings together is in prison now for child pornography and sexual abuse.  To this day he denies the allegations and thinks he was framed.  It destroyed his Church.  

Organization and corporations have a huge amount of liability.  One of the reasons that more kiosks, robots and voice answering systems being used is to decrease the number of employees.  Employees get injuries or call in sick or may not perform their job well.  They are counseled, given warnings and we try to make it work for them.  We could have a whole other discussion about work ethic and the risks of owning a business.  Finding employees that are qualified, don`t constantly look at Facebook and show up can be very hard.  Owners and managers are responsible for what happens to the people under them and how they act.  The Q15 is probably torn apart by the situations they may hear about.  Some of these, even many of them may not have the merit that people imply.  I know I am torn apart when people do dumb things that work for me.  I get letters written to me complaining and continually work on customer service.  Then there are internet ratings of my company.  Can`t tell you how hard it is to get a totally unfair and bogus review that was removed.  The best you can do is respond.

So, please, please don`t start screaming at the top of your lungs about how many problems the Church has hidden out there.  There are certainly cases.  We can do better and should try-constantly.  Please think about what it is like to work with people and misunderstandings before blanket statements go out there.  MormonStories is not a balanced take on most issues in my experience.  Don`t you want balance and well thought out cases for two sides of an argument?  

Sure, I'll take balanced but like Storm Rider mentioned, it's good to tear off the bandaid and heal. Also, I scream at the top of my lungs but only on this board. Sorry that you have to put up with my comments.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Tacenda

[Jeanne]

22 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I agree, and I tend to think those that also were abused by Bishop may not come out if they are stalwart members because it might be like coming out against the church for them.

And what is most sad about this..is that a person goes on...and to redeem himself/herself in the church..will blame themselves.  What a heavy price this will be above and beyond just a church...but to an entire life affecting so many other things.

[ALarson]

5 hours ago, provoman said:

What victim shaming have you witnessed?

Unfortunately we had to discuss this today in our Bishop meeting.  My Bishop is not happy regarding some of the feedback and comments he's received about this case.  It needs to stop.

I know that the leaders of the church would not sanction this manner of victim shaming either.  That's not what they want going on.

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by ALarson

[Calm]

"Unfortunately we had to discuss this today in our Bishop meeting.  My Bishop is not happy regarding some of the feedback and comments he's received about this case."

I am trying to think of what this means in regards to victim shaming...has the bishop been told stories by victims who have been shut down by shaming or fear of shaming or does this mean something else?

[provoman]

43 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Unfortunately we had to discuss this today in our Bishop meeting.  My Bishop is not happy regarding some of the feedback and comments he's received about this case.  It needs to stop.

I know that the leaders of the church would not sanction this manner of victim shaming either.  That's not what they want going on.

 

Were some of these comments to the Bishop were unsolicited? As for unsolicited, That people go to their Bishop about things that are not related to their own personal spiritual welfare is befuddling to me.

As for victim shaming...If they are not communicating with the victim directly or in a manner with which victim is likely to see/read the statement...I do not see it as victim shaming; I see it as people being jerks ( board rule prohibit the language of my true feelings).

Now if they were in communication with the cictim and communicating to her in a manner that was intended to shame her, well then they have topped their jerkness with victim-shaming

. 

 

 

And I agree with that the Leadership would not victim-shaming going on.

Edited April 8, 2018 by provoman