Conference Announcements--Gender Equity Implications

[rongo]

1 minute ago, filovirus said:

The bishop is not over HT. It is strictly the stewardship of the two priesthood quorums. They report directly to the stake president.

Yes, they nominally report directly to the stake president, but at the "rubber hits the road" level, it is indeed under the bishop. That's why (even with the changes announced this weekend) the language is "under the direction of the bishop." It doesn't get any more clear or direct than that. 

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, filovirus said:

The bishop is not over HT. It is strictly the stewardship of the two priesthood quorums. They report directly to the stake president. Now if ward council is working correctly the bishop and the auxillary organizations can offer suggestions to the quorum leaders about who to assign to home teach certain families.

So if I understand you correctly you believe that the quorums only have stewardship over families but not the individuals within those families?

Ultimately, I think we are talking past each other and you aren't really understanding what I'm saying (I'm probably not explaining myself very well) so I'm just going to drop it.  It's not worth the angst.  

[changed]

19 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Sisters often have home teachers visit especially when they are indigent.  They help out with household jobs etc. They visit with widows and watch over them, visit them in nursing homes. etc.  Elders quorums often help people move, etc especially sisters who are unmarried.

Widows are often visited by priesthood.   I hear that President Monson did that occasionally

The church welfare program is administered by the bishop as often assisted by the EQP.

You are blessed to have never needed this assistance 

Women serve the men too - does this mean women have stewardship over everyone they bring dinner to?

[filovirus]

16 minutes ago, changed said:

Women serve the men too - does this mean women have stewardship over everyone they bring dinner to?

Home Teaching is about providing priesthood authority to every member in a ward, among other things. Being obtuse does not does not add to the discussion.

[changed]

2 minutes ago, filovirus said:

Home Teaching is about providing priesthood authority to every member in a ward, among other things. Being obtuse does not does not add to the discussion.

 

The church welfare program is administered by..... who again?

What is the name of that women's organization?  what is their purpose? ... "relief" something-or-another?  

This is a thread on gender equity - recognizing everyone's contributions, no more VT/HT - we are all ministers, all working together in this thing.

Next up - let's all admit who "protects" and provides ... lets look at who raises kids after divorces, and who stands up for kids in bad situations... 

[EMSG]

19 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

As my eyes roll back in my head thinking about the fact that we actually have people that seek out ways to create gender equality. It is as if the race is on to destroy anything that could possibly, remotely distinguish between male and female.  God forbid that there is a difference.  Then, at the end of the creation of "equality" we can all be the same.  We get to be consumers and producers in an economy that is totally equal and happy as long as we consume.  We grow the babies in test tubes so no one dares to find a dissimilarity between male and female. No need for families because families are sexist!  Yup, a paradise is what we are creating.  Let's go fast into this better world that humans will create.  

Go Spot go. See Jane and **** ( Richard, then) run. They run the same speed.  Jane and **** are equal.  If one goes faster than the other they will be hammered into submission.  We rejoice in equality. We teach equality.  We preach equality.  All hail to equality.  Stamp all inequality.  

Yeah, boy will this be a swell ride as long as every one is blind and never questions anything in the great pursuit of equality.  

I’m sorry you seem to be so upset by the thought of gender equality. Maybe you should readjust your view that not all equality is as extreme as you seem to think and say it is.... We still are never going to be truly equal because men and women were evolved to be different. As with any species. The difference though is we have thinking minds above other species, and it’s a waste to not be using all of them to better a place. Here being the church, correct? 

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, filovirus said:

Home Teaching is about providing priesthood authority to every member in a ward, among other things. Being obtuse does not does not add to the discussion.

This is a side and completely separate issue, but HT must be about more than that, otherwise they would not assign HT to families that already had a priesthood leader in the home, would they?

[filovirus]

13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This is a side and completely separate issue, but HT must be about more than that, otherwise they would not assign HT to families that already had a priesthood leader in the home, would they?

On the contrary. One of my good friends, a priesthood holder, became very sick and was hospitalized for a short time. Home teachers fill in as priesthood holders when needed. He needed others to offer him a priesthood blessing. He could not bless himself. And both home and visiting teachers looked after his family as needed.

With this change coming, it will still need to be structured in such a way as to provide access to the priesthood for every member.

Edit to add: But yes, HTing is/was more than just providing access to the priesthood. But that access is a very, very important part of HT.

Edited April 3, 2018 by filovirus

[Guest]

23 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

A couple of big announcements this weekend carry some gender equity implications.  I'm curious if y'all think these implications will have more than a negligible impact on gender equity issues in the Church.

First:  With the consolidation of Melchizedek Priesthood quorums, the Relief Society presidency is now more analogous to the Elder's Quorum presidency.  Both have stewardship over half of the adult population of the ward, and both are a single voice in ward councils.  Prior to this, stewardship over adult males was divided between two quorums, each with its own voice in council. 

Second:  The new ministry program is a single unified program, for both men and women.  There is no longer a separate program for the men (Home Teaching) and the women (Visiting Teaching).  All participate together in the ministry.

Third:  Inviting the young women to participate in the ministry program narrows the differences between the young men and young women programs.  Both now have responsibilities to minister. 

Obviously, these changes do not erase all the gender differences in the Church, but it does lessen some of them.  Not being a woman, I really can't say whether this lessening is even worth mentioning, let alone discussing.

The Relief Society has always represented half the members, and have always been a "Presidency", the only other "Presidency", over men was and is the Elders Quorum President. High Priest Group Leaders were never "Presidents", and on the Ward level, never held any keys, the "keys" rested with the Stake President, and still do. In this respect nothing has changed, except all men over the age of 18, now meet in the same room, being instructed by the same teacher. A fact that has happened many times already in my Ward. 

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, EMSG said:

I’m sorry you seem to be so upset by the thought of gender equality. Maybe you should readjust your view that not all equality is as extreme as you seem to think and say it is.... We still are never going to be truly equal because men and women were evolved to be different. As with any species. The difference though is we have thinking minds above other species, and it’s a waste to not be using all of them to better a place. Here being the church, correct? 

The concept of equality does not bother me.  The way people talk about equality tends to bother me.  At no point have I ever said that we want to create a class of people that don't think - this is shrill argument that women are just wombs to be abused by the patriarchal oppressors in family units.  I have never said that humans should not have free agency to choose what they want to do.  

If we do anything the Church must be the source and fount of truth.  The truth, eternal truths is not found in the philosophies of men and parroting those philosophies or using those philosophies to judge the "rightness" of the Church's actions is not something the saints should be doing.  

 

[Rain]

 

 

18 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I never said women don't also have stewardships. In fact, stewardships will often overlap. Bishopric, YM/YW, Home teachers ( for example) all had stewardship over individuals.

You're right that most often a youth will be included within the stewardship of the entire household instead of as individuals, yet HT were regularly encouraged to be involved with the youth's special events, musical performances, sporting events etc. The HT, within the stewardship of his assignment as HT may also make the bishop aware of specific issues the youth may be dealing with. Bishops were supposed to review and approve all HT companionships and assignments. When I was bishop I would sit down with the HPGL and EQP to choose companionships for families who could relate to the youth. That wasn't always possible, but we tried. Also, when a youth had issues bishops are likely to include multiple resources. Ward councils were sometimes used to coordinate between the overlapping stewardships.

Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but you seem a little upset about this idea. I'm not sure why. If I am misunderstanding, I apologize. But we'll just have to disagree because from my experience EQP and HPGL absolutely had responsibilities/stewardships related to all members of the ward, including youth and women.

This surprised me coming from you. I've read over her posts and found nothing in them that made her seem upset until after you suggested it and she admitted she was annoyed. I wish you knew why you felt she was upset.

For the record I think that technically most of you are right that with whole families covered by HT then the EQP will have more responsibility than an RSP, but speaking practically? I think the RS as a whole has demonstrated that VT do as much or more for their sisters' whole families than HT do for their families. The idea that the RSP has had the combined burden of the EQ and HP seems valid when you talk of reality. And that's not to say, "neener, neener, women are better than men". It is just that if women can do it then we trust men can as well.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Rain

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

 

This surprised me coming from you. I've read over her posts and found nothing in them that made her seem upset until after you suggested it and she admitted she was annoyed. I wish you knew why you felt she,was upset.

For the record I think that technically most of you are right that with whole families covered by HT then the LQP will have more responsibility than an RSP, but speaking practically? I think the RS as a whole has demonstrated that VT do as much or more for their sister's whole families than HT do for their families. The idea that the RSP has had the combine burden of the EQ and HP seems valid when you talk of reality.

Nothing said here disagrees with what you have said. In fact I think that's a good analogy yes the RSP has a responsibility combined like the elders Quorum president and the high priest group leader. And in ways perhaps it's more!

But that was not the question or the issue. The question was whether or not the elders Quorum had any responsibility for sisters. No one ever talked about how much responsibility the Relief Society president has.

Those are two different questions.

And yes I can see the Relief Society bringing in meals for example to a single elderly brother after surgery Etc.

So in a sense when could say that the Relief Society has stewardship over the elders as well.

The problem was the vehement denial that the elders Quorum ever had any stewardship over women. Clearly that was an error.

Edited April 4, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

Perhaps the problem is the definition of stewardship different people are using.

I would tend to question why if an EQP came to me and said I have received a revelation for you.  I might have given it more consideration from a HPGL, especially if he said family rather than me since my husband has been a HP for almost 30 years.  I doubt I would think much of it from a Home Teacher unless he said he had received a revelation for himself about my family for him to work on rather than telling me what I was to do or expect.  Otoh, I would seriously consider it if either my RSP or my Bishop told me they had been praying about what I needed and received revelation they were inspired to share with me that included advice on my own choices.

That type of stewardship is different from the EQP and any Elder showing up to help with moving and similar service from other groups.p, as valuable as such service is.

Bluebell might want to be more precise in what she means about stewardship.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Calm

[Storm Rider]

6 hours ago, Rain said:

This surprised me coming from you. I've read over her posts and found nothing in them that made her seem upset until after you suggested it and she admitted she was annoyed. I wish you knew why you felt she was upset.

For the record I think that technically most of you are right that with whole families covered by HT then the LQP will have more responsibility than an RSP, but speaking practically? I think the RS as a whole has demonstrated that VT do as much or more for their sisters' whole families than HT do for their families. The idea that the RSP has had the combined burden of the EQ and HP seems valid when you talk of reality. And that's not to say, "neener, neener, women are better than men". It is just that if women can do it then we trust men can as well.

Hey Rain, I am pretty ambivalent about the conversation regarding EQ and HP and RSP. I guess the way I think about it is the focus is ministry. If that is the objective then use the tool that will be most effective.  I don't think in terms of who or what organization is "best" - it is, for the given situation, who can be most effective.  That just makes sense.

I have a knee-jerk response to almost all conversations of "equality".  This term has a lot of secular baggage that comes with it and that is what I react to.  I don't think gender equality was a concept of discussion in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Retrofitting it into the gospel does not work so well.  When we do try to do so then the discussion, fundamentally, becomes about ego - what I want, what I need, etc. He is not about making us identical so that it does not matter what gender he uses - we all become identical and can replace one another for any and every task.  For some reason he created male and female, that we should cleave to one another to become one, and then gave us a commandment to go and replenish the earth. 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Perhaps the problem is the definition of stewardship different people are using.

I would tend to question why if an EQP came to me and said I have received a revelation for you.  I might have given it more consideration from a HPGL, especially if he said family rather than me since my husband has been a HP for almost 30 years.  I doubt I would think much of it from a Home Teacher unless he said he had received a revelation for himself about my family for him to work on rather than telling me what I was to do or expect.  Otoh, I would seriously consider it if either my RSP or my Bishop told me they had been praying about what I needed and received revelation they were inspired to share with me that included advice on my own choices.

That type of stewardship is different from the EQP and any Elder showing up to help with moving and similar service from other groups.p, as valuable as such service is.

Bluebell might want to be more precise in what she means about stewardship.

I agree.

[Rain]

7 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Hey Rain, I am pretty ambivalent about the conversation regarding EQ and HP and RSP. I guess the way I think about it is the focus is ministry. If that is the objective then use the tool that will be most effective.  I don't think in terms of who or what organization is "best" - it is, for the given situation, who can be most effective.  That just makes sense.

I have a knee-jerk response to almost all conversations of "equality".  This term has a lot of secular baggage that comes with it and that is what I react to.  I don't think gender equality was a concept of discussion in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Retrofitting it into the gospel does not work so well.  When we do try to do so then the discussion, fundamentally, becomes about ego - what I want, what I need, etc. He is not about making us identical so that it does not matter what gender he uses - we all become identical and can replace one another for any and every task.  For some reason he created male and female, that we should cleave to one another to become one, and then gave us a commandment to go and replenish the earth. 

I think if you really listen to the women on the board and try not to worry about "equality" you will find that nearly every one of us feels this same way. I can tell you that I have that knee jerk reaction to the word "feminist" because it has seemed the world has wanted to erase the unique responsibilities of men or women. We too want to work together in unity. 

So I hope you can imagine why it frustrates us at times when we try to show or explain a problem and the knee jerk reaction stands in the way - we feel we are put in the same category as those who want the identical/replace system and then we feel that our observations are not taken seriously.

I have no idea if there is record of equality talked about in Christ's time or not, but I have to think there must have been some conversation of it when those who observed Christ treating women in the way he did saw those things contrary to what might have been normal in society. 

 

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I think if you really listen to the women on the board and try not to worry about "equality" you will find that nearly every one of us feels this same way. I can tell you that I have that knee jerk reaction to the word "feminist" because it has seemed the world has wanted to erase the unique responsibilities of men or women. We too want to work together in unity. 

So I hope you can imagine why it frustrates us at times when we try to show or explain a problem and the knee jerk reaction stands in the way - we feel we are put in the same category as those who want the identical/replace system and then we feel that our observations are not taken seriously.

I have no idea if there is record of equality talked about in Christ's time or not, but I have to think there must have been some conversation of it when those who observed Christ treating women in the way he did saw those things contrary to what might have been normal in society. 

The language we use is important and it would be helpful if the saints just simply do not use secular terms when discussing topics. I have the same sense as you do about the term feminist - I have probably read far too much from the radical side and I strive to not be manipulated by the media so I am hypersensitive to certain words

For the Savior, I think, he seems to focus on value of the individual soul.  If there was a lost sheep - not male or female - he left the 99 to search out for that single lost one.  That works for me.

[Rain]

14 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

The language we use is important and it would be helpful if the saints just simply do not use secular terms when discussing topics. I have the same sense as you do about the term feminist - I have probably read far too much from the radical side and I strive to not be manipulated by the media so I am hypersensitive to certain words

For the Savior, I think, he seems to focus on value of the individual soul.  If there was a lost sheep - not male or female - he left the 99 to search out for that single lost one.  That works for me.

So what would you use instead of "equality" or "equity"?

 

[HappyJackWagon]

9 hours ago, Rain said:

1- This surprised me coming from you. I've read over her posts and found nothing in them that made her seem upset until after you suggested it and she admitted she was annoyed. I wish you knew why you felt she was upset.

For the record I think that technically most of you are right that with whole families covered by HT then the EQP will have more responsibility than an RSP, but speaking practically? I think the RS as a whole has demonstrated that VT do as much or more for their sisters' whole families than HT do for their families. The idea that the RSP has had the combined burden of the EQ and HP seems valid when you talk of reality. And that's not to say, "neener, neener, women are better than men". It is just that if women can do it then we trust men can as well.

I don't why this would be a surprise "coming from" me. I'm not sure what that means. I made the comment because she seemed so adamant about rejecting the idea that Priesthood quorums had stewardship over all members. She repeatedly rejected that notion and I didn't understand why she was rejecting that notion. One could dislike that arrangement but can't really deny that it was the arrangement.

I don't disagree with anything you said about the RS. I don't see that acknowledgement of the assigned priesthood role diminishes the RS role.

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I don't why this would be a surprise "coming from" me. I'm not sure what that means. I made the comment because she seemed so adamant about rejecting the idea that Priesthood quorums had stewardship over all members. She repeatedly rejected that notion and I didn't understand why she was rejecting that notion. One could dislike that arrangement but can't really deny that it was the arrangement.

I don't disagree with anything you said about the RS. I don't see that acknowledgement of the assigned priesthood role diminishes the RS role.

I rejected the notion because I couldn't find anything official support for it and no one else provided anything official.  HT have stewardship over the families they Home Teach, but other than that I could find nothing that said that EQP had stewardship over the ward.  I've looked online and only found articles such as this one-

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2005/04/the-effective-elders-quorum?lang=eng

I asked for a reference to support it and only got different opinions.  Can you provide one?  (sincere question)

[filovirus]

Honestly, I never really think about gender equality when it comes to HT and VT. In a well running ward, it shouldn't really matter. The responsibility of watching over the flock is shared by both HT and VT.

In my current ward, we have some widowed and older single sisters with needs. Well, the VTers do a very good job of helping with those needs. But guess what? The HTers are just as involved in helping with those needs. Neither RS or HP Group is claiming sole stewardship of those sisters. In fact, they work together to provide even better help. This is how it should be, and probably why the program is changing so it can better reflect this method.

It is sad to see that some on this thread see HTing as only "helping with moves" when this is in fact a very small and minor thing that HTing takes part in. Perhaps this has been perpetuated because of inefficient or lackadaisical HTers. Those good HTers will find that not much changes with the new program. They would have already been ministering to their families.

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Bluebell might want to be more precise in what she means about stewardship.

I'm using the definition that the church uses-

Responsibility to administer or attend to the assignments one receives in a Church calling.

[filovirus]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm using the definition that the church uses-

Responsibility to administer or attend to the assignments one receives in a Church calling.

Here is the responsibility of HTers from Church Handbook 1:

Edit to add: HTing is an assignment, not a calling, if that makes much of a difference. But the stewardship of HTers is listed below. EQP and HPGL have stewardship of HTing in general.

Responsibilities of Home Teachers

Home teaching is one way Heavenly Father blesses His children. Home teachers “visit the house of each member, exhorting them to pray vocally and in secret and attend to all family duties” (D&C 20:51). They are assigned to families and individuals to “watch over … and be with and strengthen them” (D&C 20:53). They “warn, expound, exhort, and teach, and invite all to come unto Christ” (D&C 20:59).

Where possible, home teachers visit members in their homes at least monthly. Home teachers may also find other meaningful ways to watch over and strengthen the families they are assigned. For example, they may render service to the families or contact family members by mail or telephone.

Home teachers represent the Lord, the bishop, and quorum or group leaders. They can be an important source of help to members. They consult with the head of the household about the family’s needs and about ways to be most helpful.

Home teachers become acquainted with family members’ interests and needs and recognize special events in their lives.

As needed, home teachers help parents ensure that their children are blessed, baptized, and confirmed. They may also help parents ensure that their sons have the Aaronic Priesthood and Melchizedek Priesthood conferred upon them and are ordained to priesthood offices at the appropriate ages.

Home teachers offer help when members are unemployed, ill, lonely, moving, or have other needs.

Home teachers help members strengthen their faith in Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and encourage them to make and keep sacred covenants. This service is especially important to new members and less-active members.

Home teachers make appointments for their visits at times that are convenient for the individuals or families. They remember that they are guests of the members they visit.

Each visit should focus on a planned purpose. Before visiting a home, companions pray together. They discuss ways they can strengthen those they will visit. Based on this discussion and the guidance of the Holy Ghost, they share a message, usually taken from the scriptures and the First Presidency’s message in the Ensign or Liahona magazine. Other messages may come from the bishop or other leaders. The head of the household may also request a special message. Home teaching visits typically include a prayer.

Each month, home teachers report to quorum or group leaders on the spiritual and temporal welfare of the members they visit. If a member’s needs are urgent, home teachers report them immediately.

Edited April 4, 2018 by filovirus

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The problem was the vehement denial that the elders Quorum ever had any stewardship over women. Clearly that was an error.

To clarify, there was no vehement denial that the elder's quorum ever had any stewardship over women.  The statement I questioned was "The quorums had stewardship over the entirety of the congregation, including the adult women."

So i question that the Elder's Quorum has stewardship over everyone in the entire ward, including all the women all the time. I asked for a reference to support that statement.  Can you provide one?

[filovirus]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

To clarify, there was no vehement denial that the elder's quorum ever had any stewardship over women.  The statement I questioned was "The quorums had stewardship over the entirety of the congregation, including the adult women."

So i question that the Elder's Quorum has stewardship over everyone in the entire ward, including all the women all the time. I asked for a reference to support that statement.  Can you provide one?

In a way this is/was true, as pertaining to HTing.

One of the responsibilities of EQP and HPGL is "They organize and oversee home teaching." (Church Handbook 2).

Here are the families that should be assigned HTers from the Church Handbook 2:

Organizing Home Teaching

A household that is headed by an elder usually has home teachers from the elders quorum. A household that is headed by a high priest usually has home teachers from the high priests group. When a household is not headed by a Melchizedek Priesthood holder, the bishopric determines whether that household should have home teachers from the elders quorum or the high priests group. In making this decision, the bishopric may consult with the priesthood executive committee and ward council.

In organizing home teaching, quorum and group leaders prayerfully discuss the needs of individuals and families. Leaders discuss ways home teachers can watch over and strengthen these members, consulting with the priesthood executive committee and ward council as needed. Leaders also consider factors such as distance, travel, and safety.

 

With this in mind, every "household" should be assigned a HT. So yes, HTing covers the entirety of the ward. And there is a stewardship that HTers have, according to the definition you stated above. Is it the same stewardship that a bishop has? NO. But we have never been arguing that this is the case. Is it the same stewardship that the RS has? NO. But we have never be arguing that is the case. But they have a stewardship.