Is BoM Musical an "Attack" on Mormonism?

[smac97]

Here:

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I was expecting Book of Mormon to be an attack on religion. Here's why it's not
By Michael Jensen

I read this opinion piece, by an Anglican rector in Australia, and came away both agreeing and disagreeing with it.  It was thought-provoking.

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If you are nice and decent person, does it matter what you believe?

Some of the nicest people you could ever meet are Mormons — or, as they prefer to be called, Latter Day Saints.

They've responded to the open ridicule of their faith in hit musical The Book of Mormon with smiles and an offer to audiences to check out the book itself.

So Mormons have, in the main, responded to the musical with grace and aplomb.  I'm glad of that.  But I think that's more of a let's-make-lemonade-out-of-lemons response, rather than a hey-it's-totally-cool-with-us-to-ridicule-our-religion response.

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They also believe some of the strangest things of any religion I've come across — including that ancient Israelite tribes built boats and sailed to America, and that there's a planet or star called Kolob next to the throne of God, and that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon from a language called "Reformed Egyptian" inscribed on golden plates that he discovered near his home in New York state.

I saw the musical The Book of Mormon last week. I was expecting it to be a scathing satirical attack on the LDS church and on religion in general. I was excepting to feel pretty uncomfortable, to be honest, as a person of faith.

So the author has a generalized and broadly accurate understanding of what we believe.  And he's a person of faith.  Good to know.

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But, despite the profanity and the satire, the show was surprisingly pro-religious faith as a transformative power to bring hope in the world.

Not having seen the musical, I can only rely on descriptions of it by those who have.  The above description is a rather common one.  The musical is characterized as a backhanded compliment of Mormonism.

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The musical tells the story of two young Mormon missionaries who are sent to convert people in Uganda. They find the remote village where they've been sent to be a desolate place, beset with AIDS, female genital mutilation, disease, and being overrun by a local warlord. The people survive these calamities by shaking their fists (and more) at God.

The young Mormon missionaries are dismayed. What does their faith have to say about AIDS, female circumcision, and crop failures? But they discover that there is a great power in belief, in and of itself.

Elder Price finds his courage to stand up to the warlord by reminding himself that "a Mormon just believes" (it helps if you get to sing it in a musical theatre style of course!). The people of the village find hope and resolve in the contorted, but more practical, version of Mormonism that Elder Cunningham teaches them.

And that seems to be the message. It doesn't matter what you believe. It's belief that matters. Any belief.

What do you think of this last statement ("It doesn't matter what you believe. It's belief that matters. Any belief.")?  Is that correct?

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Believing in some source of meaning and hope, such as a religion, makes your life go better. And the lives of those around you.

You are more kind, more healthy, more generous, and less isolated. You are less prone to addictions. You are more resilient when disaster hits, as it inevitably does.

Religious communities do the heavy lifting in Australia when it comes to volunteering and welfare work.

So the journalist seems to be differentiating religious belief systems from secular ones.  That's an interesting topic for me.  I certainly believe that irreligious people can be kind, healthy, generous, and so on.  But I'm not persuaded that they can create the sort of "communities" that religious people can and do (or at least that they do so far less than religious people).  Am I wrong?

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This is not particularly controversial, and it is widely substantiated by research. Even atheist journalist Matthew Parris, after a visit to Africa, wrote a piece entitled: As an atheist, I truly believe Africa needs God. He could see that it was people with faith who were opposed to corruption, committed to building their nation, and filled with compassion for the needy.

Again, I certainly believe that irreligious people can also be "opposed to corruption, committed to building their nation, and filled with compassion for the needy."  I wonder, however, if they actually do have these attributes at the same levels as religious people.  I also wonder if they create and contribute to community efforts and charitable endeavors in the same ways that religious groups do.  

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But is that enough? If a flaky idea makes us nicer people, is that OK?

I am with atheists like the late Stephen Hawking here in saying, "no, it isn't".

To happily believe an illusion is simply tragic — like imagining you are happily married while your spouse has multiple affairs, unbeknown to you.

It's surely a vital part of the human gift that we are capable of inquiry and reason. To shut that capacity off surely diminishes us. And it opens us to the possibility of believing things that are really poisonous, too.

This is an excellent point.  It is one of the reasons I so cherish Mormonism.  It is not simply a pie-in-the-sky, don't-worry-be-happy, it-doesn't-matter-if-it's-true-as-long-as-it-makes-you-happy type of belief system.  While we believe in the ultimate victory of good over evil, we do not discount the reality and effects of the latter in our lives.  I have long appreciated this remark by Hugh Nibley:

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God does not fight Satan: a word from him and Satan is silenced and banished.  There is no contest there; in fact we are expressly told that all the power which Satan enjoys here on earth is granted him by God.  "We will allow Satan, our common enemy, to try man and to tempt him."  It is man’s strength that is being tested—not God’s.

This clear-eyed approach to good and evil really helps me.

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Faith isn't the opposite of reason. Faith is a necessary complement to reason. For one thing, since we cannot know everything, we have faith in the work of others. For another, we proceed by faith that the world is a coherent and knowable place. We take it on trust that there is good and evil.

But faith in anything, however weird, is not a good thing in an of itself. Trust a scam artist, and you'll be scammed. Believe in a lie, and you'll be taken for a fool.

The apostle Paul even admitted this, arguing that if the resurrection of Christ was a hoax, then the Christian faith is a pathetic joke.

Easter can't just be a myth about re-birth, or a vague story about hope. It's either based on events that actually occurred in time and space, or it is nothing at all.

These are really good points.  It is for these reasons that I have found the "inspired fiction" theory of the Book of Mormon to be so problematic.

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That's where I am putting my faith on the line. I believe some strange things, too. A guy rose from the dead, for starters. But I am not going to hide behind the "take it on faith" mantra or suggest that you should overlook my odd beliefs because I am a nice guy.

The Christian faith offers itself for scrutiny, especially over its historical claims. Either it is convincing or it isn't.

Well said.  

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited March 30, 2018 by smac97

[ksfisher]

59 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Here:

I read this opinion piece, by an Anglican rector in Australia, and came away both agreeing and disagreeing with it.  It was thought-provoking.

So Mormons have, in the main, responded to the musical with grace and aplomb.  I'm glad of that.  But I think that's more of a let's-make-lemonade-out-of-lemons response, rather than a hey-it's-totally-cool-with-us-to-ridicule-our-religion response.

So the author has a generalized and broadly accurate understanding of what we believe.  And he's a person of faith.  Good to know.

Not having seen the musical, I can only rely on descriptions of it by those who have.  The above description is a rather common one.  The musical is characterized as a backhanded compliment of Mormonism.

What do you think of this last statement ("It doesn't matter what you believe. It's belief that matters. Any belief.")?  Is that correct?

So the journalist seems to be differentiating religious belief systems from secular ones.  That's an interesting topic for me.  I certainly believe that irreligious people can be kind, healthy, generous, and so on.  But I'm not persuaded that they can create the sort of "communities" that religious people can and do (or at least that they do so far less than religious people).  Am I wrong?

Again, I certainly believe that irreligious people can also be "opposed to corruption, committed to building their nation, and filled with compassion for the needy."  I wonder, however, if they actually do have these attributes at the same levels as religious people.  I also wonder if they create and contribute to community efforts and charitable endeavors in the same ways that religious groups do.  

This is an excellent point.  It is one of the reasons I so cherish Mormonism.  It is not simply a pie-in-the-sky, don't-worry-be-happy, it-doesn't-matter-if-it's-true-as-long-as-it-makes-you-happy type of belief system.  While we believe in the ultimate victory of good over evil, we do not discount the reality and effects of the latter in our lives.  I have long appreciated this remark by Hugh Nibley:

This clear-eyed approach to good and evil really helps me.

These are really good points.  It is for these reasons that I have found the "inspired fiction" theory of the Book of Mormon to be so problematic.

Well said.  

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

I don't know that the musical is so much of an overt attack on Mormonism.  It seems to be more of a manifestation of societies general lack of reverence for sacred things.

[stemelbow]

It seems to me Smac, you've commented a lot on the musical over the years.  It's odd you've never seen it.  If you are so interested, you ought to give it a viewing.  If it ever comes back to town I'll go with you.  

[smac97]

Just now, stemelbow said:

It seems to me Smac, you've commented a lot on the musical over the years. 

Well, it's frequently mentioned in our society, and with that comes commentary on my faith.  

Just now, stemelbow said:

It's odd you've never seen it. 

Not really.  It's not high on my list of priorities.

Just now, stemelbow said:

If you are so interested, you ought to give it a viewing. 

I'm not that interested.

Just now, stemelbow said:

If it ever comes back to town I'll go with you.  

I don't need to see it to know that it profanes my faith, while also being a backhanded compliment.  That is the point of the article I posted.

Thanks,

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, smac97 said:

Well, it's frequently mentioned in our society, and with that comes commentary on my faith.  

Not really.  It's not high on my list of priorities.

I'm not that interested.

I don't need to see it to know that it profanes my faith, while also being a backhanded compliment.  That is the point of the article I posted.

Thanks,

-Smac

I've never seen it, either. Believe it or not, I don't like mocking people's beliefs, especially not their spiritual experiences. Even at my most bitter, my satire was aimed at cultural aspects and apologetics. I'm well past that stage now, but even then, I felt ridiculing deeply held beliefs kind of sucks.

I did listen to the soundtrack, which is on Youtube. It's what you would expect: silly, profane, and an over-the-top parody of what it means to be a Mormon. That said, the song "Turn It Off" hit me really hard, almost bringing me to tears, as I could totally relate to that.

[stemelbow]

12 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Well, it's frequently mentioned in our society, and with that comes commentary on my faith.  

Not really.  It's not high on my list of priorities.

I'm not that interested.

I don't need to see it to know that it profanes my faith, while also being a backhanded compliment.  That is the point of the article I posted.

Thanks,

-Smac

Musicals and shows aren't really my thing, but I'd make that sacrifice for you.  No big deal if you aren't interested.  I just figured seeing as you like to talk about it, you might want to see it in order for you to feel a little more justified in your position regarding it.  

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I've never seen it, either. Believe it or not, I don't like mocking people's beliefs, especially not their spiritual experiences. Even at my most bitter, my satire was aimed at cultural aspects and apologetics. I'm well past that stage now, but even then, I felt ridiculing deeply held beliefs kind of sucks.

I agree.  So you'll understand why I'm not inclined to see the musical.

4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I did listen to the soundtrack, which is on Youtube.

I have listened/watched parts of the soundtrack as well.

4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

It's what you would expect: silly, profane, and an over-the-top parody of what it means to be a Mormon. That said, the song "Turn It Off" hit me really hard, almost bringing me to tears, as I could totally relate to that.

I can't.  It's a caricature.  A cheapshot.  Not remotely associated with what I have been taught and believe.

Thanks,

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

Just now, smac97 said:

I agree.  So you'll understand why I'm not inclined to see the musical.

I have listened/watched parts of the soundtrack as well.

I can't.  It's a caricature.  A cheapshot.  Not remotely associated with what I have been taught and believe.

Thanks,

-Smac

Like I said, my Mormon experience isn't yours. That song was not much of an exaggeration of what I experienced.

[provoman]

Smac, look up the lyrics to a song titled

 

Jospeh Smith, American Moses

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

...........................

What do you think of this last statement ("It doesn't matter what you believe. It's belief that matters. Any belief.")?  Is that correct?..............................................

Eric Hoffer made the case in his The True Believer that the need for a belief, any belief, is very strong.  What people believe doesn't really matter so much as the desire to be a believer, to have a purpose in life, to find excelsior.  Otherwise, life is empty and meaningless, boring and humdrum.

Let every good fellow, now join in our song,
Vive la compagnie!
Success to each other, and pass it along,
Vive la compagnie!

Vive la, vive la, Vive l'amour.
Vive la, vive la, Vive l'amour.
Vive l'a you, vive me, Vive la compagnie!!  Hey!!

[Jeanne]

9 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Musicals and shows aren't really my thing, but I'd make that sacrifice for you.  No big deal if you aren't interested.  I just figured seeing as you like to talk about it, you might want to see it in order for you to feel a little more justified in your position regarding it.  

I don't like musicals at all...funny that because I love music.  But if someone was to hand me tickets for the Book of Mormon...I would give them away...funny movies..real life movies..but I even hated CATS!

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, provoman said:

Smac, look up the lyrics to a song titled

Jospeh Smith, American Moses

I'm familiar with the lyrics.

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." (Matthew 12:36)

"Trifle not with these things; do not ask for that which you ought not."  (D&C 8:10)

"Wherefore, let all men beware how they take my namein their lips."  (D&C 63:61)

"And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing."  (Moroni 10:30)

Thanks,

-Smac

[provoman]

Thanks for the reply, I just dont see turning the 1st Vision into a cure for AIDs that involves a frog as a compliment or as anything other than an attack

Edited March 30, 2018 by provoman

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, provoman said:

Thanks for the reply, I just dont see turning the 1st Vision into a cure for AIDs that involves a frog as a compliment or anything that should be virwed as praise worthy

I agree. 

[carbon dioxide]

The best way to respond to things like this play is to either ignore them or laugh at it and go with the punches.  Generally people who want to taunt or mock another person or group want to stir up negative reactions.  They want to offend people.  If people get offended, it just encourages them to do it again.  If they don't get the reaction desired, they probably will get bored of it after a while.  People draw pictures of Mohammad because they know it stir a number of Muslims up like angry bees.  If the Muslims don't react,  they will stop drawing pictures. 

[HappyJackWagon]

I've never seen it, but I'd like to. I know it's crass and takes some pot shots at the church, but overall I think it paints Mormons (and all religionists) as generally good, loving people. Sure, they point out parts of Mormonism that might seem silly but I think it's a broader statement about religion in general since all religions have "silly parts".

The church has benefited greatly by taking the musical in stride. I hope the PR person behind advertising inside the playbill got some kind of raise/promotion. The church is still being recognized for its grace and "aplomb" for its treatment of the musical. Frankly, I think the church gets more credit than it deserves. I'm glad they reacted well publicly, but I haven't seen as much grace shown locally. I hear members deride it constantly. When the traveling show first came to our area our Stake had PR specialists do meetings in every ward warning about the evils of the show and recommending people not attend. Personally, I think that was a foolish approach because it raised the interest of more people. So while the church may have made a good PR move, I don't see many church members really approaching the musical with grace.

 

[CA Steve]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

I don't like musicals at all...funny that because I love music.  But if someone was to hand me tickets for the Book of Mormon...I would give them away...funny movies..real life movies..but I even hated CATS!

I too hated Cats, probably the worst musical I have seen and I have seen most of them over the last 30 years. Don't judge all musicals on it.

There are two musicals everyone should see.

Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dream Coat.

This a great musical, especially if it is the first one you ever see. LDS people should especially enjoy it. The music is outstanding . This is a great musical for a small production or high end. I have seen it in both formats  and enjoyed both. It is my second favorite.

 

Les Miserables

Best musical ever. Best story line, best production and most of all, best music, but it needs to be seen live and at a high end production and by that I do not mean the local college  or community theaters . It is simply too difficult to do on a small scale. It requires high production values and people who have great voices and acting ability. If you have not seen this play live at a high end theater your bucket list is incomplete. Do yourself a favor, spend a lot of money on tickets for good seats in a great theater and bring lots of tissue.

 

There are some others that are worthwhile and in no particular order they are:

Phantom - Its music rivals Les Miserables and its a great story.

Little Shop of Horrors - like Joseph it is good on both large and small scale productions - this is a great play for young and old alike as are the next three I list.

Shrek the Musical - I know, it sounds weird, but I do not think I have laughed harder at any other play, it is simply a hoot. 

Lion King - in a large production it may have some of the best costuming of any play I have seen, simply stunning.

Beauty & the Beast - another good play with good music and a good story.

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by CA Steve

[provoman]

Jesus Christ SuperStar, Hello Dolly, Paint Your Wagon was enjoyable

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by provoman

[Gray]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

So the journalist seems to be differentiating religious belief systems from secular ones.  That's an interesting topic for me.  I certainly believe that irreligious people can be kind, healthy, generous, and so on.  But I'm not persuaded that they can create the sort of "communities" that religious people can and do (or at least that they do so far less than religious people).  Am I wrong?

 

I think you're right there. Religion is very good at community-building. There doesn't seem to be anything like it in the secular world.

[CA Steve]

2 minutes ago, Gray said:

I think you're right there. Religion is very good at community-building. There doesn't seem to be anything like it in the secular world.

I think there is and it's called local government. It actually takes groups of sub communities,  and and combines them into a larger group that effectively provides common education, law enforcement and utilities. Of course the degree of success varies but then so does it within a religious community.

[smac97]

51 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I've never seen it, but I'd like to. I know it's crass and takes some pot shots at the church, but overall I think it paints Mormons (and all religionists) as generally good, loving people. Sure, they point out parts of Mormonism that might seem silly but I think it's a broader statement about religion in general since all religions have "silly parts".

I agree.  It's the extreme profanation that I find offputting.

51 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The church has benefited greatly by taking the musical in stride. I hope the PR person behind advertising inside the playbill got some kind of raise/promotion. The church is still being recognized for its grace and "aplomb" for its treatment of the musical. Frankly, I think the church gets more credit than it deserves.

I agree.  The Church made the best of an unpleasant situation.  Lemonade out of lemons and all that.

51 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm glad they reacted well publicly, but I haven't seen as much grace shown locally. I hear members deride it constantly.

So have I.  And these grievances are, I think, rather justified.

But I have not seen riots, or threats of violence, or protests, or calls for censorship/suppression, etc.

51 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

When the traveling show first came to our area our Stake had PR specialists do meetings in every ward warning about the evils of the show and recommending people not attend.

Hmm.  That's a judgment call, I suppose.

51 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Personally, I think that was a foolish approach because it raised the interest of more people.

Yes, I can see that.

51 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So while the church may have made a good PR move, I don't see many church members really approaching the musical with grace.

Privately objecting to the profanation of sacred things does not, in my view, constitute a lack of grace.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Gray]

13 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I think there is and it's called local government. It actually takes groups of sub communities,  and and combines them into a larger group that effectively provides common education, law enforcement and utilities. Of course the degree of success varies but then so does it within a religious community.

Those are important infrastructures and resources, but I don't think those are communities.

[CA Steve]

4 minutes ago, Gray said:

Those are important infrastructures and resources, but I don't think those are communities.

I am pretty sure the people that live in my local community would disagree. 

 

[Gray]

15 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I am pretty sure the people that live in my local community would disagree. 

 

Is the Department of Health and Human resources a community? I don't think a community is a group of people going to work at the same office every day.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

I too hated Cats, probably the worst musical I have seen and I have seen most of them over the last 30 years. Don't judge all musicals on it.

There are two musicals everyone should see.

Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dream Coat.

This a great musical, especially if it is the first one you ever see. LDS people should especially enjoy it. The music is outstanding . This is a great musical for a small production or high end. I have seen it in both formats  and enjoyed both. It is my second favorite.

 

Les Miserables

Best musical ever. Best story line, best production and most of all, best music, but it needs to be seen live and at a high end production and by that I do not mean the local college  or community theaters . It is simply too difficult to do on a small scale. It requires high production values and people who have great voices and acting ability. If you have not seen this play live at a high end theater your bucket list is incomplete. Do yourself a favor, spend a lot of money on tickets for good seats in a great theater and bring lots of tissue.

 

There are some others that are worthwhile and in no particular order they are:

Phantom - Its music rivals Les Miserables and its a great story.

Little Shop of Horrors - like Joseph it is good on both large and small scale productions - this is a great play for young and old alike as are the next three I list.

Shrek the Musical - I know, it sounds weird, but I do not think I have laughed harder at any other play, it is simply a hoot. 

Lion King - in a large production it may have some of the best costuming of any play I have seen, simply stunning.

Beauty & the Beast - another good play with good music and a good story.

 

I LOVE Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dream Coat and Les Mis. Phantom is great, but I also love Moulin Rouge (great music).

But I am REALLY loving The Greatest Showman. SOooooooo Gooood!