CA Steve Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 15 minutes ago, Gray said: Is the Department of Health and Human resources a community? I don't think a community is a group of people going to work at the same office every day. The people in my community do not go to the same office either. Strange that you would equate a federal government department as being the same as a local community government. I don't dispute that religions can build a community or be a large part of a community but there is so much more to the definition of a community that that which a religion provides. A local government is a great example (not the only one) of a secular organization that builds a community. Here locally our town council puts on events in the local parks, it participates in efforts to beautify the city by providing city property which people can use to grow their own garden, we have our own local city supported theater and local community college. The list goes on and on. All these efforts, driven by local government, build our sense of community. I am puzzled this is even a discussion. People do not have to work for local government to feel like they are part of that community.
Gray Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, CA Steve said: The people in my community do not go to the same office either. Strange that you would equate a federal government department as being the same as a local community government. I don't dispute that religions can build a community or be a large part of a community but there is so much more to the definition of a community that that which a religion provides. A local government is a great example (not the only one) of a secular organization that builds a community. Here locally our town council puts on events in the local parks, it participates in efforts to beautify the city by providing city property which people can use to grow their own garden, we have our own local city supported theater and local community college. The list goes on and on. All these efforts, driven by local government, build our sense of community. I am puzzled this is even a discussion. People do not have to work for local government to feel like they are part of that community. Okay, just trying to understand. I've gone to plenty of events put on by local government, but it's not like it's the same people there every time, or that I'm getting to know anyone either. To me a community would be more close-knit than the kind of loose and informal gatherings that get together to see the theater troupe put on Hamlet or going to see local bands play in the park. I suppose a secular community could be be something like a club, or local theater (the theater people, not necessarily the audience), things like that. I guess I was thinking of the various "secular communities" that I've heard of, where the focus is non-religious people trying to build communities that mirror church structure. Edited March 31, 2018 by Gray
mfbukowski Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 You ARE what you believe and can never get out of that fact. You can change beliefs but that will not change the fact that what makes you who you are is based on your beliefs about "what is true". We all operate on our beliefs. The key to it all is making your beliefs the best possible ones. So first you figure out what your purpose in life is- you get to figure that out. Then you figure out the best beliefs to achieve that purpose since your decision about your purpose already implies certain beliefs anyway. You will ALWAYS see "what is" through your lens of beliefs though- that is inescapable. So EVERYONE "just believes", critics and Mormons alike. The journalist who wrote the article, the people who wrote the play, the critics, those who oppose the critics, scientists, atheists and religious people alike "just believe" that they are right. What makes Mormons different is knowing that we "just believe"! We call that a "testimony". The problem is that not many Mormons know that they "just believe" and what is really tragic is that 99% of the world does not realize at all that they also "just believe". Having the only "true and living faith" MEANS that we are all prophets within our own lives and create our own universes from matter unorganized. Knowing that is the key to knowing that the kingdom of God is within, creating God's kingdom within ourselves and outwardly as much as is possible once we have it within.
CA Steve Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, Gray said: Okay, just trying to understand. I've gone to plenty of events put on by local government, but it's not like it's the same people there every time, or that I'm getting to know anyone either. To me a community would be more close-knit than the kind of loose and informal gatherings that get together to see the theater troupe put on Hamlet or going to see local bands play in the park. I suppose a secular community could be be something like a clubs, or local theater (the theater people, not necessarily the audience), things like that. I guess I was thinking of the various "secular communities" that I've heard of, where the focus is non-religious people trying to build communities mirror churches in structure. The sign into our town says "welcome to the community of so & so". I think you are looking at term community as being more limited than it really is. The examples you give are just fine but it is more than than. And given the hundreds of thousands of local communities we have just the in US, each of which having their own local community government, I would suggest that local government is a very effective way of building and maintaining those communities.
Gray Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 Just now, CA Steve said: The sign into our town says "welcome to the community of so & so". I think you are looking at term community as being more limited than it really is. The examples you give are just fine but it is more than than. And given the hundreds of thousands of local communities we have just the in US, each of which having their own local community government, I would suggest that local government is a very effective way of building and maintaining those communities. Maybe I'm just too anti-social to have experienced what you've experienced. Or I've lived in the wrong towns. Or both! 1
mfbukowski Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 24 minutes ago, CA Steve said: The people in my community do not go to the same office either. Strange that you would equate a federal government department as being the same as a local community government. I don't dispute that religions can build a community or be a large part of a community but there is so much more to the definition of a community that that which a religion provides. A local government is a great example (not the only one) of a secular organization that builds a community. Here locally our town council puts on events in the local parks, it participates in efforts to beautify the city by providing city property which people can use to grow their own garden, we have our own local city supported theater and local community college. The list goes on and on. All these efforts, driven by local government, build our sense of community. I am puzzled this is even a discussion. People do not have to work for local government to feel like they are part of that community. I think that we must think in terms of sub-communities as well and people whom you know so well as to give a wink and they will "know what you are saying" as a "community" as well. As a temple worker toward the end of a shift we sometimes have opportunities to sit around waiting for a session to end so we can finish off a veil and then go home. Those men sitting around are about as homogeneous a community as one can imagine- all faithful LDS, all dressed in white, badges as ordinance workers, similar backgrounds and similar beliefs. And surprise surprise, sometimes "non-temple" subjects arise Politics. Gun control. Odd doctrines. In many ways this board itself is a "community" of similar interests and understanding- there is a way in which we all understand each person here for their past posts and what they are going to "harp" on So when we speak of a "community" I think we need to look at the sub-communities as contexts. When the pro-gun control brother starts going off on his subject there is the wink and a nod from the others, a roll of the eyes, etc- a kind of wordless debate with the blanks already filled in in each mind, each dividing the "larger community" of totally homogeneous brothers into sub-communities, and doing so wordlessly Yet the beliefs ARE within a "community" even if that community is only two! There is a "language" going on in a wink or even just eye-contact between husband and wife in certain situations where one knows precisely what the other is thinking with nothing said. And of course I hear often that husbands and wives may actually disagree occasionally. (and that is a wink in itself- emojis actually serve that function in creating another sub-community nowadays in texts) Just as a plug for the philosophy community, Wittgenstein discusses this in detail about how truth is found in "communities" as small as two. But I think we need to be mindful that really a community is like separate people on separate deserted islands sending out semaphore code to others who already understand the code Many times when we are not part of that particular little island group we confuse our codes with others and may interpret conflict where it does not exist. So we gotta be cautious I think in assuming what a "community" is and slice and dice it down to its most precise level if we want to know what is "really happening" in communication.
mfbukowski Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, Gray said: Maybe I'm just too anti-social to have experienced what you've experienced. Or I've lived in the wrong towns. Or both! I think his definition is just too broad. That is what my community tells me. 1
CA Steve Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Gray said: Maybe I'm just too anti-social to have experienced what you've experienced. Or I've lived in the wrong towns. Or both! If I were a completely inactive Mormon, who never attend his local ward and did not associate with any local members, would I still be counted by the ward as part of the local LDS community? The level to which I participate is irrelevant to the local ward in terms of whether or not they consider me a member. I was baptized, I live in the ward boundaries, therefore I am a member of its community. I don't think your lack of participation where you lived had any affect on it being a community and, in fact, you were still part of it just by living there. I think you are focusing too much maybe on the need for everyone in a group to participate to actually be considered as part of that group. In fact, it is quite possible to be someone who is trying to change or even destroy their own community and still be part of it, like we see with Sam Young and his march on the conference center today. He is still part of the Mormon community there. So you may be trying to limit your definition of community to only active positive contributors, which is fine but not all encompassing of what I think the word means, but even then, local government would certainly fit in that area. A lot of people participate in their local governments without actually working for them. I always try and vote in our local elections because my local government has the most direct impact on my lifestyle.
CA Steve Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I think his definition is just too broad. That is what my community tells me. It's called a local community with a community college and a community theater and parks. But I suppose all those definitions are too broad also. But then I am sure some philosopher somewhere would tell me I don't really understand what the word community really means.
mfbukowski Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, CA Steve said: It's called a local community with a community college and a community theater and parks. But I suppose all those definitions are too broad also. But then I am sure some philosopher somewhere would tell me I don't really understand what the word community really means. Sorry if you took it that way- not intended
Calm Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 I have no desire to see a show full of racism. https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/byblackscom/book-of-mormon-racism_b_15936092.html https://bulletin.hds.harvard.edu/articles/summerautumn2012/cringe-worthy-depiction-africa https://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-barber/mormon-show-paints-africa_b_3807463.html https://www.npr.org/2011/04/15/135437800/the-root-is-broadways-book-of-mormon-offensive https://aidleap.org/2014/01/20/is-the-book-of-mormon-the-musical-racist/ 3
Tacenda Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 10 hours ago, Jeanne said: I don't like musicals at all...funny that because I love music. But if someone was to hand me tickets for the Book of Mormon...I would give them away...funny movies..real life movies..but I even hated CATS! Jeanne, have you seen The Greatest Showman? I hope you get to see it before it's not in theaters anymore, it's awesome. Plus, loved Les Miserables too, of course maybe I just love Hugh Jackman, haha!
Bernard Gui Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Calm said: I have no desire to see a show full of racism. https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/byblackscom/book-of-mormon-racism_b_15936092.html https://bulletin.hds.harvard.edu/articles/summerautumn2012/cringe-worthy-depiction-africa https://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-barber/mormon-show-paints-africa_b_3807463.html https://www.npr.org/2011/04/15/135437800/the-root-is-broadways-book-of-mormon-offensive https://aidleap.org/2014/01/20/is-the-book-of-mormon-the-musical-racist/ It is odd to me that anyone would pay hundreds of dollars to sit in a darkened theater to listen to actors pretending to be Mormons and Africans mocking real Mormons and Africans while spouting streams of the most offensive images and curse words in our language and laughing at things like a missionary being raped with a Book of Mormon by terrorists and an African girl who believes she can send text messages with a typewriter. If they spoke or acted in such bigoted way at work, home, or school they would have no friends and would probably be disciplined. I find it even more odd that any Latter-Day Saint or African could in good conscience view it and then say it was great entertainment, a gentle and friendly poke in the eye, a fun night out, and that it had a good message. As one who has had extensive experiences with musicals and opera, my opinion is it is manipulative, opportunistic, poorly written, trite, and puerile. The music and lyrics are mediocre, and it will not endure the test of time. BTW, I have read the libretto, seen all the music sequences on Youtube, and (gasp) seen a bootleg video of the show. There is nothing redeeming, virtuous, lovely, praiseworthy, or of good report. Edited March 31, 2018 by Bernard Gui 2
Jeanne Posted March 31, 2018 Posted March 31, 2018 12 hours ago, Tacenda said: Jeanne, have you seen The Greatest Showman? I hope you get to see it before it's not in theaters anymore, it's awesome. Plus, loved Les Miserables too, of course maybe I just love Hugh Jackman, haha! Well Hugh Jackman is enough to get me there!!
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