Help Restore the LDS Film "Windows of Heaven"

[cinepro]

The proprietor of the Hard-to-Find Mormon Videos YouTube channel has done an incredible job of making classic LDS videos available online.  But one video that isn't available is the original version of the film "Windows of Heaven", because it was edited in length after its original release in the 1960s and only those edited versions were made available on VHS.

He has now acquired a 16mm print of the original-length version and is raising money to scan it in high-definition.  If you are willing to help out with the project, more info is available here:

https://www.gofundme.com/windowsofheaven

Quote

This project is to aid in the digitization of the original 50-minute version of the film that played its role in both LDS history and culture ever since.  Your contribution can bring back footage that has been seen for decades: footage about history and issues that are again at the forefront of modern Internet discussion. 

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by cinepro

[jkwilliams]

Just now, cinepro said:

The proprietor of the Hard-to-Find Mormon Videos YouTube channel has done an incredible job of making classic LDS videos available online.  But one video that isn't available is the original version of the film "Windows of Heaven", because it was edited in length after its original release in the 1960s and only those edited versions were made available on VHS.

He has now acquired a 16mm print of the original-length version and is raising money to scan it in high-definition.  If you are willing to help out with the project, more info is available here:

https://www.gofundme.com/windowsofheaven

Thanks for sharing that. I don't know how many times I've seen that film (always on 16mm, never on VHS), but to me, Francis Urry was the definitive Lorenzo Snow. 

[Duncan]

I heard that some of the people that heard Pres. Snow's original address in 1899 were extras for the film, which, to me, is Twilight Zone stuff, watching a movie about yourself

[Kenngo1969]

What's the difference between the original version and the currently-available version, and what's the agenda of the person wanting to make it more widely available?  (You know, since you're asking me to put my money where my mouth is, and everything. )

[cinepro]

On 3/29/2018 at 10:19 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

What's the difference between the original version and the currently-available version, and what's the agenda of the person wanting to make it more widely available?  (You know, since you're asking me to put my money where my mouth is, and everything. )

The longer version has much more polygamy, blacks being denied the priesthood, Lorenzo Snow talking about the Book of Abraham, and a subplot involving the cover ups of the Mountain Meadows Massacre and some child abusing bishops ordered by President Snow himself.  Also a scene where President Snow talks about women getting the Priesthood "very soon."

I don't know what the agenda of the guy is.

Edited March 30, 2018 by cinepro

[Kenngo1969]

9 minutes ago, cinepro said:

The longer version has much more polygamy, blacks being denied the priesthood, Lorenzo Snow talking about the Book of Abraham, and a subplot involving the cover up of the Mountain Meadows Massacre and some child abusing bishops ordered by President Snow himself.  Also a scene where President Snow talks about women getting the Priesthood "very soon."

I don't know what the agenda of the guy is.

Right, and I'm sure he has absolutely no agenda, what with all of the things you mentioned being included in the longer version.  Alas!, money is pretty tight right now, but, hey!  Who knows what'll happen when I get my next paycheck!  Maybe it'll be "1. Tithing," and "2. This guy's 'Go-Fund-Me' campaign."  He can always hope, but, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were him.  So many worthy causes, so little money, alas!  

[Scott Lloyd]

I clearly remember seeing the original version as a child at the time it came out. I was enthralled. I was not a little disappointed when they edited it. I would love to see the original restored. 

By the way, a few years ago while attending the Mormon History Association Conference, I was in the St. George Tabernacle and saw the very pulpit where Lorenzo Snow was standing at the time he received the revelation on tithing — and the very pulpit where Francis Urry stood when he portrayed President Snow in the movie depiction of that event. 

[CA Steve]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

The longer version has much more polygamy, blacks being denied the priesthood, Lorenzo Snow talking about the Book of Abraham, and a subplot involving the cover up of the Mountain Meadows Massacre and some child abusing bishops ordered by President Snow himself.  Also a scene where President Snow talks about women getting the Priesthood "very soon."

I don't know what the agenda of the guy is.

Is this a typo?

If not, what the heck does it mean?

[Scott Lloyd]

28 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Is this a typo?

If not, what the heck does it mean?

The entire post is spoofery.  You mean to say you took it seriously?  Sheesh. 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I clearly remember seeing the original version as a child at the time it came out. I was enthralled. I was not a little disappointed when they edited it. I would love to see the original restored. 

By the way, a few years ago while attending the Mormon History Association Conference, I was in the St. George Tabernacle and saw the very pulpit where Lorenzo Snow was standing at the time he received the revelation on tithing — and the very pulpit where Francis Urry stood when he portrayed President Snow in the movie depiction of that event. 

Will there be a director’s cut? A special edition with new special effects? 

[CA Steve]

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The entire post is spoofery.  You mean to say you took it seriously?  Sheesh. 

I am ashamed to admit having taken him seriously.

I should know better. 

 

It was worded strangely though.

[Kenngo1969]

So, there'll be different versions ...

A G-rated version (for Primary) ...

A PG-rated version, for Young Men and Young Women ...

And perhaps a PG-13 rated version for adults?  

[cinepro]

18 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

So, there'll be different versions ...

A G-rated version (for Primary) ...

A PG-rated version, for Young Men and Young Women ...

And perhaps a PG-13 rated version for adults?  

The PG-13 version includes the opening remarks by J. Golden Kimball.

[cinepro]

For those that are interested in the details behind Lorenzo Snow's visit to St. George (and whether or not he actually promised the drought would end if they paid their tithing), this is a great article:

 

The Windows of Heaven Revisited

It starts on page 45.

Here's the conclusion from the article for those who don't want to read the whole thing:

Quote

What can be said, in summary, about the strong image prevalent in the minds of many members that a renewed emphasis on tithing began in a historical event: Lorenzo Snow's prophetic promise to the struggling Saints in St. George that the windows of heaven would open metaphorically in blessing and literally in breaking the drought if they would pay their tithing? The evidence is conclusive that Lorenzo Snow indeed received a revelation about the importance of renewed emphasis on tithing and made inspired promises church wide about the continued existence of the Church if the Saints of his day would obey this principle.

However, despite numerous opportunities to remind the people that it would rain if they paid their tithing and despite great motivation to do so until drought cycle broke in 1902, neither the ecclesiastical leaders in St. George Stake nor General Authorities made such reminders. Available contemporary evidence, including LeRoy Snow's  own accounts, provide no evidence of such a promise, yet it was LeRoy's triple accounts, published some thirty-five years after witnessing the event, which created the link between rain and tithing. Perhaps his memory was faulty and he did not consult his own records; or perhaps a fuller account lies in records not yet available to researchers. In any case, the prophetic call to tithe more diligently caused Church revenues to increase markedly and immediately. Between June and the October general conference, 1899, tithing increased $72,000 over the previous year.  The number of members who paid at least some tithing jumped from 18.4 percent of the total stake membership in 1898 to 25.6 percent in 1899; by 1900, tithing had tripled the 1898 figures and grew another 3.3 percent in 1901.  The increase in tithing peaked in 1910 at around 59.3 percent; by 1925 it had dropped to 25.3 percent.  Lack of federal persecution, and standardizing a single tithing as one-tenth of one's annual increase no doubt made tithe-paying seem more possible as well.

 

Interestingly, records also seem to show that President Snow did make some promises that involved the Second Coming and Jackson County:

Quote

Snow admitted the Church's financial difficulties and announced his intention to stress tithing. If parents would teach their children to pay tithing, he promised, "then we will have a people prepared to go to Jackson county." He declared that the Christ was coming soon but that the Church congregation would "not hear the voice of God until we pay [a] full tithing and return to Jackson Co."

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by cinepro

[ksfisher]

19 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Will there be a director’s cut? A special edition with new special effects? 

The new special effects will give audiences a peek at George Lucas' original vision for this film. 

The Native Americans in the MMM scene will be replaced by Ewoks and St George ends up looking a lot more like Cloud City.

[cinepro]

20 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Will there be a director’s cut? A special edition with new special effects? 

Since the restored version will be the originally released version, it would appropriately be called the "Director's Cut."

Interestingly, I just worked on a project that was a conversion of a classic 1980s TV show to high definition.  Most of it was a simple re-transfer of the original film elements, but a few episodes had some green-screen composite shots and other effects, and those all had to be redone.  The new effects looked way, way better than they had back in the 80s!  So while it wasn't billed as a "Special Edition" with all new special effects, it could have been.

Edited March 30, 2018 by cinepro

[Gray]

20 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Will there be a director’s cut? A special edition with new special effects? 

Whatever happens, I hope Han shoots first.

[stemelbow]

51 minutes ago, cinepro said:

In any case, the prophetic call to tithe more diligently caused Church revenues to increase markedly and immediately. Between June and the October general conference, 1899, tithing increased $72,000 over the previous year.  The number of members who paid at least some tithing jumped from 18.4 percent of the total stake membership in 1898 to 25.6 percent in 1899; by 1900, tithing had tripled the 1898 figures and grew another 3.3 percent in 1901.  The increase in tithing peaked in 1910 at around 59.3 percent; by 1925 it had dropped to 25.3 percent.  Lack of federal persecution, and standardizing a single tithing as one-tenth of one's annual increase no doubt made tithe-paying seem more possible as well.

Yeah but how many more chickens did the Church get?  Reference for those who haven't seen, there's a scene where a pre-teen boy on his bike gives the bishop his best chicken as his tithing payment.  The bishop upon taking the chicken asks, " are all of your chickens this good looking?"  Boy responds, "This was my best chicken.  I figured the Lord needs the best." or something like that.  

Edited March 30, 2018 by stemelbow

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Whatever happens, I hope Han shoots first.

 

As someone who hates the Special Editions, I'll just point out that Han didn't shoot "first", since there was never a second shot.  It's correct to simply say "Han shoots."

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Yeah but how many more chickens did the Church get?  Reference for those who haven't seen, there's a scene where a pre-teen boy on his bike gives the bishop his best chicken as his tithing payment.  The bishop upon taking the chicken asks, " are all of your chickens this good looking?"  Boy responds, "This was my best chicken.  I figured the Lord needs the best." or something like that.  

Payment of tithes "in kind" was common back then.

Down the street from my house is the cemetery where my parents and some of my ancestors are buried. the land was originally the tithing yard when the community was settled. They needed tithing yards because of the volume and diversity of "in-kind" donations.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

For those that are interested in the details behind Lorenzo Snow's visit to St. George (and whether or not he actually promised the drought would end if they paid their tithing), this is a great article:

 

The Windows of Heaven Revisited

It starts on page 45.

Here's the conclusion from the article for those who don't want to read the whole thing:

 

Interestingly, records also seem to show that President Snow did make some promises that involved the Second Coming and Jackson County:

 

This is confusing. I can't tell from this whether the St. George saints did or did not receive the promise that the drought would break if they paid their tithing.

[ALarson]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This is confusing. I can't tell from this whether the St. George saints did or did not receive the promise that the drought would break if they paid their tithing.

I'm interested to know too and haven't ever looked into this before.

I found this (doing an online search):

http://mormonhistoricsites.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Reexamining-Lorenzo-Snows-1899-Tithing-Revelation.pdf

Quote

In September 1898, when Lorenzo Snow became the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Church was deeply in debt, and resolving this debt crisis became his first priority. As he sought solutions, he felt inspired to travel to Southern Utah and attend the St. George Stake Conference. While there, he received a powerful spiritual manifestation that showed him how to relieve the debt problem: a renewed emphasis on full tithing payment. President Snow vigorously implemented the revealed solution, and the debt crisis was mitigated before his death. A related side-issue— an alleged prophecy regarding “tithing-for-rain” in St. George—is essentially unsubstantiated in contemporary records.

Quote

According to a major subplot in the widely seen BYU-produced movie The Windows of Heaven, during his May 1899 visit to St. George, President Snow also prophesied that if those present would from that day onward faithfully pay a full and honest tithing, the Lord would open the literal windows of heaven, send down rain upon the dry, drought-stricken soil of Southern Utah; the rivers and ditches would be filled, and the St. George Saints would yet reap a bounteous harvest that very year. The justification for such a dramatic promise or prophecy is found in a few articles written some thirty-five to forty years later by LeRoi Snow about President Snow’s St. George visit. However, contemporary records do not corroborate any such utterance by President Snow, and historical evidence indicates otherwise. The 1899 year-end harvest was very poor, and the locals sustained heavy livestock losses. Furthermore, although it rained intermittently in Southern Utah for the next few years, it was not until 1902 that enough precipitation discernibly fell to break the drought.

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by ALarson

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

I'm interested to know too and haven't ever looked into this before.

I found this (doing an online search):

http://mormonhistoricsites.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Reexamining-Lorenzo-Snows-1899-Tithing-Revelation.pdf

 

That wouldn’t have made a very good movie. 

[ALarson]

Here's a bit more:

Quote

In March 1900, ten months after President Snow’s visit to St George, when he learned that one of the presidents of the Seventy had been assigned to attend the St. George Stake conference, Snow stated that he desired that one of the Twelve also go, whereupon Francis R. Lyman expressed his willingness to accept the invitation. Still reeling from lack of moisture, Snow told Lyman to “tell the people not to waver in their faith, but to pray fervently to the Lord for the necessary moisture, and he believed that the Lord would hear their prayers inasmuch as they strictly adhered to the law of tithing.” In May 1901, two years after Snow’s landmark address, Rudger Clawson reported: “Pres. Snow had promised the people of St. George country that, if they were faithful in honoring the law of tithing and other commandments of God, they should be visited by the early and latter rains. This promise had been literally fulfilled, for a recent drought of some 5 years had been broken by copious rains.” These comments are the only known statements by Lorenzo Snow in which he is reported to have promised the Saints “rain” for the faithful observance of tithing.

 

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That wouldn’t have made a very good movie. 

No....