Is the Holy Ghost legitimate?

[hope_for_things]

32 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

For the record, to teach primary children in the Pleasant Hills ward in PIttsburgh, I had to have a background check.  It's standard procedure for everyone.  My wife had hers already through work.  And we always had to teach in pairs, never alone.

Explain how these verse describe HG inspiration as a cure all that makes up for anyone's lack of training and resources:

Regarding inspiration, I have experienced it occasionally.  Not all the time.  But sometimes.  And I have experienced it on a few occasions as a group experience.  Even, on three crucial occasions, I saw this one happen to my wife:

On these occasions, we both knew exactly what was happening, and who was speaking, and why.  But that experience does not mean that we also have our own normal blundering at times.  Even most of the time.  To say I am occasionally inspired is not to declare that I have become God's Sock Puppet, and have only one input, and one output.  I've recently quoted Alma as one who reports on a diverse set of inputs, ranging from God to opinion.  Remember that insisting on perfection, insisting that everything and everyone involved with an institution that is quite literally an assembly of people of all different kinds always live up to some abstractly imagined ideal, always has the effect of rendering imperfection as the only decisive and significant information. 

And I have been involved in many training sessions, both giving and receiving.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Thats amazing that your ward requires background checks, this is the first I've ever heard of that happening.  Good on your local leaders, this is great to hear about.  

I'm glad that you interpret scriptures that way, its very practical and thoughtful.  You are showing there is another way to look at things within the church, and that is true with respect to how to view the way the HG works.  Thanks for sharing.  

[Duncan]

43 minutes ago, Gray said:

Yes, it's often expressed this way - "Whom the Lord calls, the Lord qualifies"

In some ways the lay clergy thing is nice, even charming, but there are some serious drawbacks to it as well.

I would add if they are willing to be qualified!

[drums12]

42 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm not sure where you got the impression that I feel my current ideas are superior or enlightened.  I definitely don't feel that way, I'm just an average person making observations on a message board about current events that I'm thinking about and find interesting.  If you disagree with my observations, please comment as to why in a little more detail so we can have a dialogue about it.  Based on your response I'm assuming you think the church shouldn't background check or do the other things I listed because you do believe that the Holy Ghost effectively fills in the gaps in these processes.  

You're assuming an awful lot.  Of course I think the Church should do background checks.  

[hope_for_things]

25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

For some reason the phrase "arm of flesh" keeps coming to mind.

God expects us to do our due diligence in all areas of life.  But that in no way negates the Holy Ghost.
And the Holy Ghost doesn't trump agency either.  It's not going to overrule our bad decisions.

I agree that the Church can always improve, but you seem to be advocating putting trust in man's processes because God's appear ineffective to you.
That would be a quick road to apostasy for the Church.

Are you assuming that the current practices where I believe the church is negligent, are actually designed to be that way because God expects them to be that way?  

Also, because I want the church to follow the lead of other church's and institutions on these matters to better protect the members, that this is somehow a road to apostasy?  What about all the other programs where the church created policies and procedures and structure that isn't reliant on the HG, things like the welfare program or the perpetual education fund.  Are those other processes evidence for putting trust in man?  It seems like the church has some really good and organized systems in many areas, but not in the ones I listed above.  Why are my suggestions examples of a road to apostasy while other very "arm of flesh" processes are not?  

[hope_for_things]

21 minutes ago, CV75 said:

According to this article, you seem to be wrong if you are characterizing the Church as a whole: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/09/church-handbooks-the-written-order-of-things?lang=eng

 

I understand your list is from the top of your head based on the recent thread topics, but what have you personally come across in this vein that isn’t countered by other experience, and how do you take that as representative of the Church in general?

 

I'm not sure what in that link you provided disagrees with my post, maybe you can clarify.  

[hope_for_things]

7 minutes ago, drums12 said:

You're assuming an awful lot.  Of course I think the Church should do background checks.  

I was forced to assume because you didn't give any specifics.  If you're supportive of background checks, maybe you could point out what things you didn't support and why, that way we can have a discussion about it.  

Edited March 23, 2018 by hope_for_things

[HiJolly]

I have had marvelous interactions with the Holy Ghost over the decades, but never on a continual, reliable, works-every-time basis. Or even on any kind of a on-demand basis. It's been very mercurial. 

When you suddenly know something that you have zero explanation for how you know it, and it is confirmed in real life, well, I attribute that to the Holy Ghost. Whether it is or not, I don't know, but I have no good explanation for how I came to know it. Doesn't happen very often, but when it does, it's not just intuition or luck. 

I just wish I could rely on it consistently. Like when I need to call a new scoutmaster and I got nothing. That sucks. 

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Do NOT compare sacred concepts to snake oil on this board. I have modified your title. If this disrespect continues the thread will be closed and you will be put on Limited.

Thanks Moderator, I support this and understand.  I'm not trying to be disrespectful at all, hopefully my full post and replies are evidence of that.  But I agree with your changing the title, I was trying to be concise in my original attempt at a title, not disrespectful.  Thanks for the correction.  

[JAHS]

I don't think the HG just "fills the gaps". We are supposed to do our part to learn and study all we can about an issue, make the decision first and then seek confirmation from the Holy Ghost.

"Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me." (D&C 9: 7-9)

Inspiration also comes in the way Joseph Smith said:
"A person may profit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus [Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 151].

All of this of course assumes we are in a righteous state of mind and have studied the issue thoroughly so that we are eligible to receive confirmation and inspiration. 
Many times the first part is left out or is incomplete, sometimes because we assume that some of that has already been done by someone else. 

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by JAHS

[CV75]

27 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm not sure what in that link you provided disagrees with my post, maybe you can clarify.  

Yikes, just saw the red letter note on your OP; well, good luck with all that!

I take your OP to suggest that the Church can be characterized as forgoing the need for policies and practices, and the linked article about the handbooks indicates just the opposite.

[hope_for_things]

Just now, CV75 said:

I take your OP to suggest that the Church can be characterized as forgoing the need for policies and practices, and the linked article about the handbooks indicates just the opposite.

Are you saying the current policies are sufficient in spite the problems that seem so glaring right now?  Is this another argument for the status quo? 

[hope_for_things]

7 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I don't think the HG just "fills the gaps". We are supposed to do our part to learn and study all we can about an issue, make the decision first and then seek confirmation from the Holy Ghost.

"Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me." (D&C 9: 7-9)

Inspiration also comes in the way Joseph Smith said:
"A person may profit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus [Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 151].

All of this of course assumes we are in a righteous state of mind and have studied the issue thoroughly so that we are eligible to receive confirmation and inspiration. 
Many times the first part is left out or is incomplete, sometimes because we assume that some of that has already been done by someone else. 

 

I agree with you that the HG doesn't operate that way, then why do we have so many people under the impression that the HG can make up for the lack of policies, training, background checks, transparency of finances, etc.  

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Exiled said:

I think "inspiration" is from within and not without. Studying it out in your mind and consulting whatever sources there are in aid of such study, then using one's brain to analyze and then ultimately decide is what D&C 9:7-9 is all about. The burning then comes from within due to the effort expended. Claiming that it comes from without is merely an ad hoc way to give God credit for something the individual did themselves. Of course when it fails as it did time and time again with Bishop, God doesn't take the responsibility for the miscommunication. The individual does.

I agree with this line of thinking.

But there is a serious flaw in your argument. One side says it is from without and you are saying that it is from within.

Your side is as dogmatic as theirs.

Since we cannot know which is correct the question at some point becomes irrelevant.

I believe that what we call the Holy Ghost is something deep within us which one cannot tell if it is inside or outside. It is the best within us that we have as humans with which we judge situations. Pragmatically it makes no difference if it is inside of us are from without. It is still the best we have.

Phenomenologically I am absolutely certain that I perceive it as being from outside of me. There are often insights that I receive which I am certain I could not have thought up myself.

At some point though the distinction becomes irrelevant, since the answer comes from our personal prejudices.

At that point we have to follow the spirit as to what is the correct answer.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by mfbukowski

[JLHPROF]

39 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Are you assuming that the current practices where I believe the church is negligent, are actually designed to be that way because God expects them to be that way?  

Also, because I want the church to follow the lead of other church's and institutions on these matters to better protect the members, that this is somehow a road to apostasy?  What about all the other programs where the church created policies and procedures and structure that isn't reliant on the HG, things like the welfare program or the perpetual education fund.  Are those other processes evidence for putting trust in man?  It seems like the church has some really good and organized systems in many areas, but not in the ones I listed above.  Why are my suggestions examples of a road to apostasy while other very "arm of flesh" processes are not?  

Your suggestions aren't examples of a road to apostasy.  The thought process that God can be insufficient is.
Again, I am NOT suggesting the Church can't do better.  Some of your ideas would be better.  But to claim they are necessary because the spirit of God is insufficient is not better.
The second we start thinking we can do a better job than God that is apostasy.  Thinking we can do better is not.

[CA Steve]

I guess I am just a little more skeptical than most. I frequently hear stories in F&T meeting how the HG has helped people in a variety of different difficult situation ranging from the proverbial lost car keys to the loss of a loved one. Inevitably I think that if it were really functioning as an agent for good in the lives of these people, wouldn't they have just avoided the bad situation to begin with?

 

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I agree with this line of thinking.

But there is a serious flaw in your argument. One side says it is from without and you are saying that it is from within.

Your side is as dogmatic as theirs.

Since we cannot know which is correct the question at some point becomes irrelevant.

I believe that what we call the Holy Ghost is something deep within us which one cannot tell if it is inside or outside. It is the best within us that we have as humans with which we judge situations. Pragmatically it makes no difference if it is inside of us are from without. It is still the best we have.

Phenomenologically I am absolutely certain that I perceive it as being from outside of me. There are often insights that I receive which I am certain I could not have thought up myself.

At some point though the distinction becomes irrelevant, since the answer comes from our personal prejudices.

 

They're not exactly equal claims. We know already that the "within" part exists and functions. The idea that there is a spiritual bring who is "without" and who gives inspiration is purely conjectural.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter all that much. What matters is that it works. But they're not equal claims.

[CA Steve]

1 minute ago, Gray said:

They're not exactly equal claims. We know already that the "within" part exists and functions. The idea that there is a spiritual bring who is "without" and who gives inspiration is purely conjectural.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter all that much. What matters is that it works. But they're not equal claims.

Well if it really works, and by that I mean in a way beyond just anecdotal claims it works, it should be fairly easy to measure.

[CV75]

8 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Are you saying the current policies are sufficient in spite the problems that seem so glaring right now?  Is this another argument for the status quo? 

LOL I am saying you are wrong about characterizing the Church as forgoing the need for policies and practices in lieu of "legitimacy" *ahem*

This is why I tried to explore with you what have you have personally come across in this vein and whether/how you conclude this to be representative of the Church in general.

I take the long view, and have had great experience with the council approach to making improvements to address problems, both glaring and subtle.

[JAHS]

10 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I agree with you that the HG doesn't operate that way, then why do we have so many people under the impression that the HG can make up for the lack of policies, training, background checks, transparency of finances, etc.  

They have more work to do along those lines.  Although I'm not sure your inclusion of transparency of finances needs to be included in your list.

[hope_for_things]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Your suggestions aren't examples of a road to apostasy.  The thought process that God can be insufficient is.
Again, I am NOT suggesting the Church can't do better.  Some of your ideas would be better.  But to claim they are necessary because the spirit of God is insufficient is not better.
The second we start thinking we can do a better job than God that is apostasy.  Thinking we can do better is not.

But I don't think you actually believe God is sufficient in these cases yourself either.  Let me give another example.  If a close loved one was diagnosed with cancer, would you believe that getting a priesthood blessing is sufficient to heal them, or would you take them to doctors and get the best treatment available?  Recognizing that there were members in earlier days of the church believed this very thing, that they didn't need secular medicine to heal people, and that a reliance on trained medical doctors was actually a sign of this same kind of thinking that God isn't sufficient, and an evidence of weak faith.

I'm not talking about thinking we can to better than God, although from my perspective I'm not sure how you'd measure what God can do in any objective sense anyway.  

[mfbukowski]

18 minutes ago, Gray said:

They're not exactly equal claims. We know already that the "within" part exists and functions. The idea that there is a spiritual bring who is "without" and who gives inspiration is purely conjectural.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter all that much. What matters is that it works. But they're not equal claims.

Of course they are if you are a phenomenologist and not a positivist.

You are still prejudiced toward the correspondence theory of Truth and scientism

You are deliberately discounting intuition so your argument is circular.

You are saying that any subjective phenomenon is conjecture therefore this subjective phenomena is conjecture.

My perception that it is outside of me is as real as my perception of any color or any emotion that I have. It is as real as knowing I am looking at the screen before me.

It is a no way conjecture. That you do not share that perception is not my problem.

To me you are color-blind.

Edited March 23, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Jeanne]

I have so much to say about this topic...but having a hard time putting it into words..I may respond later.  My response may be very much misunderstood..but it is real and tangible to me in body and soul.  Let me think on it..and I will explain.  I post this because I feel all your responses here are of value to you on a personal level...not just LDS/God responses but personal.  I need to do that as well..with honesty.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Jeanne

[Gray]

27 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Of course they are if you are a phenomenologist and not a positivist.

You are still prejudiced toward the correspondence theory of Truth and scientism

Only a prejudiced person would suppose that it is more likely that cars run on internal combustion than direct divine intervention. How could we ever determine which was more  likely? Only positivists and science worshipers think it's even possible!

I find it interesting that you still reflexively shout "positivism" and "scientism" even when I use the language of pragmatism. Are you sure you're a pragmatist and not a solipsist?

Edited March 23, 2018 by Gray

[CV75]

26 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I guess I am just a little more skeptical than most. I frequently hear stories in F&T meeting how the HG has helped people in a variety of different difficult situation ranging from the proverbial lost car keys to the loss of a loved one. Inevitably I think that if it were really functioning as an agent for good in the lives of these people, wouldn't they have just avoided the bad situation to begin with?

No; for example, as a fairly skeptical person myself, I’ve had experiences where I saw that the Holy Ghost had prevented a bad situation as well as helped me find my keys. Is your question really about why everyone’s every bad situation is not prevented and not everyone’s every lost key found?   

[hope_for_things]

32 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I have so much to say about this topic...but having a hard time putting it into words..I may respond later.  My response may be very much misunderstood..but it is real and tangible to me in body and soul.  Let me think on it..and I will explain.  I post this because I feel all your responses here are of value to you on a personal level...not just LDS/God responses but personal.  I need to do that as well..with honesty.

Thanks Jeanne, I always enjoy your input.