Exiled Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 59 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I agree with this line of thinking. But there is a serious flaw in your argument. One side says it is from without and you are saying that it is from within. Your side is as dogmatic as theirs. Since we cannot know which is correct the question at some point becomes irrelevant. I believe that what we call the Holy Ghost is something deep within us which one cannot tell if it is inside or outside. It is the best within us that we have as humans with which we judge situations. Pragmatically it makes no difference if it is inside of us are from without. It is still the best we have. Phenomenologically I am absolutely certain that I perceive it as being from outside of me. There are often insights that I receive which I am certain I could not have thought up myself. At some point though the distinction becomes irrelevant, since the answer comes from our personal prejudices. At that point we have to follow the spirit as to what is the correct answer. I agree that it is possible that there is a force other than ourselves that is speaking to us from time to time. I used to believe this. However, since so many mistake their own feelings for the HG, it seems one has to conclude that the HG is a lousy communicator, if one believes in the HG. One would hope the HG wouldn't have been asleep at the wheel when the question of Bishop being called to positions was put before him/her. However, some miscommunication occurred and bad results happened because of it. I think the HG might have some blame here. Even so, I think what really happens is that leaders call who they know. The Q12/FP nominate names for Q12 callings and other GA callings and the leaders are chosen from the list. In my own ward growing up there were a few 70, an apostle, and many were on the various church committees. Not surprisingly, other 70 were called from the ward and about half of the HP were called as mission presidents.
JLHPROF Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: If a close loved one was diagnosed with cancer, would you believe that getting a priesthood blessing is sufficient to heal them, or would you take them to doctors and get the best treatment available? Recognizing that there were members in earlier days of the church believed this very thing, that they didn't need secular medicine to heal people, and that a reliance on trained medical doctors was actually a sign of this same kind of thinking that God isn't sufficient, and an evidence of weak faith. Here's the thing. That's actually true. It really is. The challenge of course is that virtually nobody has strong enough faith to heal all the sick. And it's no sin to recognize you lack in faith and put forth your best efforts too. But of course God has power to heal, and God's interactions with us are based on faith. 1
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Gray said: The Holy Ghost is not a lie detector, it won't make you competent where you haven't bothered to study, it won't protect you from people you haven't bothered to vet. The Holy Ghost is an experience that adds a lot of value to life, but it's not a magical cure-all, nor is it a short-cut to actual competency. that would make the Holy Ghost unnecessary. Your idea of the Holy Ghost is indistinguishable from normal human thoughts. Why even bother to believe? The scriptures tell us what the Holy Ghost is. In Heleman chapter 8 the Holy Ghost warns Nephi about a murder crime. The Holy Ghost is real and very useful in our lives. 4 hours ago, hope_for_things said: Yes, I completely agree, and I think this does happen with other denominations as well. But I think this problem is magnified in Mormonism because of the lay ministry and this idea that because of the HG/inspiration that these leaders are given a cure all that makes up for their lack of training and resources. I believe in a God who helps humanity. God is ready to help us when ever we ask him. God is active all the time. 3 hours ago, The Nehor said: Sometimes the Holy Ghost warns of spiritual, emotional, or physical danger. Sometimes he provides counsel on which decision to make when facing life choices. Sometimes he steps in and prompts us to do something or not do something. Sometimes it prompts leaders on who needs help. Sometimes! Thank you brother Nehor for defending the truth. God works in mysterious ways. 3 hours ago, The Nehor said: Some people hear a Holy Ghost helping in a “sometimes” circumstance and assume it always happens. They are wrong and then insist it is not working right. Sometimes they make threads about it. It always happens brother Nehor, the problem is that we sometimes don't recognize the answer. The idea of the Holy Ghost helping "sometimes" makes no sense. Might as well say it was a coincidence. Edited March 23, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
bluebell Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 2 hours ago, CA Steve said: I guess I am just a little more skeptical than most. I frequently hear stories in F&T meeting how the HG has helped people in a variety of different difficult situation ranging from the proverbial lost car keys to the loss of a loved one. Inevitably I think that if it were really functioning as an agent for good in the lives of these people, wouldn't they have just avoided the bad situation to begin with? Given what the church teaches about the purpose of life, it doesn't make sense to me to believe that if the HG actually helped people, He would make it so no one who sought His help ever suffered. Besides that, this thread is a good example of how hard it is to believe in God and the Holy Ghost if you've never had a recognizable experience with Him. How would people be able to have faith enough to believe if the Holy Ghost always intervened before a person needed to ask (so they never had need to exercise their faith) and in a way that they had no way to judge if He intervened or not (so they could not recognize the outcome of their faith)? 2
JLHPROF Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 "The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile, though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body;" - Joseph Smith Problem is half the time what we think is the Holy Ghost actually isn't. 1
mfbukowski Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Gray said: Only a prejudiced person would suppose that it is more likely that cars run on internal combustion than direct divine intervention. How could we ever determine which was more likely? Only positivists and science worshipers think it's even possible! I find it interesting that you still reflexively shout "positivism" and "scientism" even when I use the language of pragmatism. Are you sure you're a pragmatist and not a solipsist? What is more likely is irrelevant in matters of faith and morals. I don't know why you can't understand that simple point that Hume made. I know my prejudices, and have chosen them carefully, and have good reasons for them. Unfortunately others are blind to their prejudices. I think you are misinformed about the meaning of those words you use. It is philosophically naive to think that one is unprejudiced. That's all from me for now.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: The second we start thinking we can do a better job than God that is apostasy. Thinking we can do better is not. Some think our prophets can't tell the difference between their own thoughts and revelation. For me our leaders are experts in revelation and I listen to them all the time. 2 hours ago, Jeanne said: I have so much to say about this topic...but having a hard time putting it into words..I may respond later. My response may be very much misunderstood..but it is real and tangible to me in body and soul. Let me think on it..and I will explain. I post this because I feel all your responses here are of value to you on a personal level...not just LDS/God responses but personal. I need to do that as well..with honesty. Please share 21 minutes ago, bluebell said: How would people be able to have faith enough to believe if the Holy Ghost always intervened before a person needed to ask (so they never had need to exercise their faith) and in a way that they had no way to judge if He intervened or not (so they could not recognize the outcome of their faith)? I have felt and recognized the Holy Ghost. When I feel something inside me that inspires me to do good, it is the Holy Ghost. When I have a better understanding or when feel motivated to do good I know I am feeling the Holy Ghost. We just have to recognize the Holy Ghost.
mfbukowski Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Exiled said: I agree that it is possible that there is a force other than ourselves that is speaking to us from time to time. I used to believe this. However, since so many mistake their own feelings for the HG, it seems one has to conclude that the HG is a lousy communicator, if one believes in the HG. One would hope the HG wouldn't have been asleep at the wheel when the question of Bishop being called to positions was put before him/her. However, some miscommunication occurred and bad results happened because of it. I think the HG might have some blame here. Even so, I think what really happens is that leaders call who they know. The Q12/FP nominate names for Q12 callings and other GA callings and the leaders are chosen from the list. In my own ward growing up there were a few 70, an apostle, and many were on the various church committees. Not surprisingly, other 70 were called from the ward and about half of the HP were called as mission presidents. What really happens is unknowable and therefore irrelevant. All we can know is what we can know. Your assumption is that if such an external voice exists then it must always correspond to some objective reality and do so infallibly, with the ability to predict the vagaries of human agency and do so infallibly. You also assume that you can comprehend the overall game plan of such an intelligence if it exists and judge whether or not this intelligence made the best decision for its overall game plan. Put simply you can't second-guess God. Perhaps this was the best way to put the church on notice that they are doing things wrong. If you are right that the leaders were not listening what better way would there be to rattle their cages? Regardless of the unseeable "real" cause I am positive this will lead to improvements. Still as always we get to choose by our personal prejudices whether or not those improvements come through secular means or Supernatural means.
JLHPROF Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 23 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Some think our prophets can't tell the difference between their own thoughts and revelation. For me our leaders are experts in revelation and I listen to them all the time. You base this knowledge of our prophets minds and spirituality on what? You may be right. I may even agree with you. But you state that our leaders are experts in revelation and back the claim up with nothing. "For me" some of our prophets have been experts in revelation and others have never reported receiving one. Quote I have felt and recognized the Holy Ghost. When I feel something inside me that inspires me to do good, it is the Holy Ghost. When I have a better understanding or when feel motivated to do good I know I am feeling the Holy Ghost. We just have to recognize the Holy Ghost. "Good feelings" are not the same as the Holy Ghost. There are any number of things that can make us feel good. Your explanation of being inspired to do good and an increased understanding are much better descriptions of how we are told the Holy Ghost works.
The Nehor Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Thank you brother Nehor for defending the truth. God works in mysterious ways. It always happens brother Nehor, the problem is that we sometimes don't recognize the answer. The idea of the Holy Ghost helping "sometimes" makes no sense. Might as well say it was a coincidence. If the Holy Ghost always steps in to warn people about to make a bad (but not sinful) decision then how do you explain your Limited status? Did you ignore the Holy Ghost?
The Nehor Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 3 hours ago, hope_for_things said: But I don't think you actually believe God is sufficient in these cases yourself either. Let me give another example. If a close loved one was diagnosed with cancer, would you believe that getting a priesthood blessing is sufficient to heal them, or would you take them to doctors and get the best treatment available? Recognizing that there were members in earlier days of the church believed this very thing, that they didn't need secular medicine to heal people, and that a reliance on trained medical doctors was actually a sign of this same kind of thinking that God isn't sufficient, and an evidence of weak faith. I'm not talking about thinking we can to better than God, although from my perspective I'm not sure how you'd measure what God can do in any objective sense anyway. To be fair many of the frontier doctors of the day were little better than a modern day chiropractor or witch doctor so that may have been a wise decision. 1
hope_for_things Posted March 23, 2018 Author Posted March 23, 2018 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Here's the thing. That's actually true. It really is. The challenge of course is that virtually nobody has strong enough faith to heal all the sick. And it's no sin to recognize you lack in faith and put forth your best efforts too. But of course God has power to heal, and God's interactions with us are based on faith. Interesting. I don't run into very many people these days that actually think like you're explaining things to me. I have to say that you are about as out of step with the mainstream as I am, and I'm saying that as an odd compliment of sorts. I don't believe in faith healings back then or today.
hope_for_things Posted March 23, 2018 Author Posted March 23, 2018 1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: 5 hours ago, hope_for_things said: Yes, I completely agree, and I think this does happen with other denominations as well. But I think this problem is magnified in Mormonism because of the lay ministry and this idea that because of the HG/inspiration that these leaders are given a cure all that makes up for their lack of training and resources. I believe in a God who helps humanity. God is ready to help us when ever we ask him. God is active all the time. Perhaps God is helping the LDS church right now by exposing the problems in the current system through this scandal which hopefully will be a catalyst for change.
The Nehor Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Here's the thing. That's actually true. It really is. The challenge of course is that virtually nobody has strong enough faith to heal all the sick. And it's no sin to recognize you lack in faith and put forth your best efforts too. But of course God has power to heal, and God's interactions with us are based on faith. No, it is not. If it were Jesus could have healed everyone but he explicitly said he could not. Generalized this means Abinadi should have survived being scorched to death, Nephi released the first day he was bound on the boat, Joseph become vizier to pharaoh on day one of Egypt, etc. God’s power is limited only by God’s will but it is a real limit. If I had sufficient faith I could move mountains but unless God wanted the mountain moved it would not move no matter how strong my faith was. 2
hope_for_things Posted March 23, 2018 Author Posted March 23, 2018 13 minutes ago, The Nehor said: To be fair many of the frontier doctors of the day were little better than a modern day chiropractor or witch doctor so that may have been a wise decision. Its amazing how much we've learned in the past 200 years through medical science. But that hasn't stopped some people from eschewing medical treatments in favor of spiritual healing and homeopathic junk science today. I imagine this is why a memoir like that of Tara Westover has gained so much popularity in recent days. This kind of thinking still exists in Mormon culture and I believe it is very dangerous. https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/03/19/idaho-womans-best-seller-tells-how-she-rose-above-spotty-home-schooling-and-a-mormon-survivalist-upbringing-to-earn-degrees-at-byu-and-cambridge/ http://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/tara-westover/
The Nehor Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 Just now, hope_for_things said: Its amazing how much we've learned in the past 200 years through medical science. But that hasn't stopped some people from eschewing medical treatments in favor of spiritual healing and homeopathic junk science today. I imagine this is why a memoir like that of Tara Westover has gained so much popularity in recent days. This kind of thinking still exists in Mormon culture and I believe it is very dangerous. https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/03/19/idaho-womans-best-seller-tells-how-she-rose-above-spotty-home-schooling-and-a-mormon-survivalist-upbringing-to-earn-degrees-at-byu-and-cambridge/ http://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/tara-westover/ I agree there is far too much of superstition and snake oil salesmanship in the culture of many of our church members. Once when a member asked why I was not eating at an event I responded that I had hypothyroidism and had just taken my medication and could not eat for a bit. She recommended some essential oils her friend was selling that could cure that........
Duncan Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, The Nehor said: To be fair many of the frontier doctors of the day were little better than a modern day chiropractor or witch doctor so that may have been a wise decision. Pres. Hinckley's dad got shot in the leg as kiddie and a doctor was called for, literally nothing but a darning needle and this Dr. trying to find the bullet, but he couldn't find it. So, they put oil on the wound and a bandage and eventually he got the use of the leg back and he doesn't know whatever came of the bullet
Robert F. Smith Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 7 hours ago, hope_for_things said: Thinking about the MTC president scandal in the news, and I started talking to a friend about what I think is a common phenomenon with the LDS church around the concepts of the Holy Ghost, discernment, and inspiration. Let me explain. There seems to be a belief that the Holy Ghost is a replacement or cure all of sorts for many things that are handled differently in contemporary society. Yet time and time again we see examples where this trust falls short. Let me list a few examples where people assume that the Holy Ghost/discernment/inspiration makes up for the lack of formalized policies and practices. Instead of: Background checks on leaders who work with children we have - HG/discernment/inspiration Rigorous training for leaders we have - HG/discernment/inspiration Financial transparency we have - HG/discernment/inspiration Defined policies to protect abuse victims we have - HG/discernment/inspiration These were just a few ideas off the top of my head, but you get the picture. Does this trust in the Holy Ghost operate as a sort of cure all in our contemporary church? A kind of snake oil that is supposed to fill in the gaps for all the areas where the church doesn't have sufficient programs and practices in place? What other areas of deficiency are there that you hear people using the Holy Ghost as a way to fill the gaps of a process? Any other thoughts about this, or am I getting this wrong? .............. The economy of God requires the we apply both secular and sacred measures to all our endeavors. In other words, if secular protocols are available, they should certainly be used, along with any spiritual techniques. Both. We don't build a chapel by inspiration. We use sound secular building techniques and engineering. We may decide to build a chapel based on inspiration, along with a count of how many people we have in a stake, and how old the current buildings are. Both. Secular background checks are always a good idea, along with personal interviews and prayer. Both. 2
Gray Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: What is more likely is irrelevant in matters of faith and morals. I don't know why you can't understand that simple point that Hume made. I know my prejudices, and have chosen them carefully, and have good reasons for them. Unfortunately others are blind to their prejudices. I think you are misinformed about the meaning of those words you use. It is philosophically naive to think that one is unprejudiced. That's all from me for now. I sometimes do think you go beyond pragmatism and into solipsism. But then sometimes you reign yourself in. I said: " At the end of the day, it doesn't matter all that much. What matters is that it works." This is practically the Gospel According to Mfbukowksi! And you start talking about correspondence theory of truth as if that had anything to do with what I was saying. It's very simple. Minds exist - there is no question about that. The Holy Ghost may or may not exist. Therefore the claims are not on equal grounds in terms of probability. It has nothing to do with positivism or scientism. One can be pragmatic and not abandon one's mind to mushy thinking. Just because our models and interpretations can never completely correspond to external reality, does not mean that some models do not come closer to external reality than others. It's not an all or nothing proposition. Think calculus, with the concept of approaching zero, but not equal to zero. Edited March 23, 2018 by Gray 1
hope_for_things Posted March 23, 2018 Author Posted March 23, 2018 12 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: The economy of God requires the we apply both secular and sacred measures to all our endeavors. In other words, if secular protocols are available, they should certainly be used, along with any spiritual techniques. Both. We don't build a chapel by inspiration. We use sound secular building techniques and engineering. We may decide to build a chapel based on inspiration, along with a count of how many people we have in a stake, and how old the current buildings are. Both. Secular background checks are always a good idea, along with personal interviews and prayer. Both. I like the both approach, this is reasonable to me, as long as we can acknowledge, that the sacred measures are limited to certain applications. For example in your secular building techniques and engineering example, there are no sacred building techniques and engineering that we can actually appeal to in practice (I'm not aware of any structures that were built via prayer alone.) So in the current cases that are being discussed, following the best practices of other institutions and using the technology and learning that is available is absolutely necessary in order to be responsible and accountable. Go ahead and pray right along side doing due diligence, just don't make the claim that prayer and inspiration are a reliable substitute, they absolutely can't be.
Robert F. Smith Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I like the both approach, this is reasonable to me, as long as we can acknowledge, that the sacred measures are limited to certain applications. For example in your secular building techniques and engineering example, there are no sacred building techniques and engineering that we can actually appeal to in practice (I'm not aware of any structures that were built via prayer alone.) So in the current cases that are being discussed, following the best practices of other institutions and using the technology and learning that is available is absolutely necessary in order to be responsible and accountable. Go ahead and pray right along side doing due diligence, In a religion such as ours in which everything is natural, and there is no supernatural, there will only be matters of degree along a natural spectrum. So, if Solomon and Brigham each receive a revelatory template of the temple which is to be built (which was the case for both), then the practical plans/blueprints must be prepared. In the case of Solomon's temple, it was a Phoenician expert who designed and built the temple, and in the case of the SL Temple, it was Truman Angell. The Garden of Eden, which was the temple of God, was built with sacred building techniques and engineering, even though entirely natural. 5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: just don't make the claim that prayer and inspiration are a reliable substitute, they absolutely can't be. Under certain circumstances they may be the only way, but those will likely be few and far between. As in the case of the Creation, the Burning Bush, Garden of Eden, or of any one of a number of so-called "miracles."
CV75 Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Here's the thing. That's actually true. It really is. The challenge of course is that virtually nobody has strong enough faith to heal all the sick. And it's no sin to recognize you lack in faith and put forth your best efforts too. But of course God has power to heal, and God's interactions with us are based on faith. Amen. Mortal life is a partnership between God and us -- we can do nothing in this world without Him, and He can do nothing in this world without us. So to say either of us is insufficient to tackle problems is irrelevant. @hope_for_things, the best and wisest thing either God or people can do is harness the power each has been given. God has all power contained withing Himself; His aim is for us to travel in that direction; all power we can rightly claim comes from Him. This is why and how policies and procedures and the gift of the Holy Ghost go hand in hand at the higher levels of spiritual functioning: God uses faith too!
hope_for_things Posted March 23, 2018 Author Posted March 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: In a religion such as ours in which everything is natural, and there is no supernatural, there will only be matters of degree along a natural spectrum. So, if Solomon and Brigham each receive a revelatory template of the temple which is to be built (which was the case for both), then the practical plans/blueprints must be prepared. In the case of Solomon's temple, it was a Phoenician expert who designed and built the temple, and in the case of the SL Temple, it was Truman Angell. The Garden of Eden, which was the temple of God, was built with sacred building techniques and engineering, even though entirely natural. Under certain circumstances they may be the only way, but those will likely be few and far between. As in the case of the Creation, the Burning Bush, Garden of Eden, or of any one of a number of so-called "miracles." Everything is natural in Mormonism? Tell that to JLHPROF who just made some posts to the exact opposite. I don't think your characterization of the church is the way that many members view the church. In the case of the temple example, did Brigham or Joseph or Solomon receive a revelatory template or did they innovate based on their knowledge and creativity? What's the difference? Nature built the garden, I would say through evolutionary means, and I think you'd agree. I think what is sacred in the parameters of how you're describing it is largely a matter of perspective and how people tell a story about how things came to be based on their subjective experience of life.
hope_for_things Posted March 23, 2018 Author Posted March 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, CV75 said: Amen. Mortal life is a partnership between God and us -- we can do nothing in this world without Him, and He can do nothing in this world without us. So to say either of us is insufficient to tackle problems is irrelevant. @hope_for_things, the best and wisest thing either God or people can do is harness the power each has been given. God has all power contained withing Himself; His aim is for us to travel in that direction; all power we can rightly claim comes from Him. This is why and how policies and procedures and the gift of the Holy Ghost go hand in hand at the higher levels of spiritual functioning: God uses faith too! If by power you mean supernatural miracles, then I don't agree. If you mean capacities that we have within ourselves that are natural, untapped potential that we can draw on through various means of practice, learning, growth and discipline, then I would agree. This is what I mean by the metaphorical approach to religion. It requires a transformation, a death and rebirth. Its all metaphorical, but its very real, and very powerful, but its not supernatural at all. Institutional religion has messed it all up, all the meaning has lost. Some of the people that get it the most seem to be outside organized religions, yet they are living Christianity in a way that is true to the metaphors and it is powerful.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: If the Holy Ghost always steps in to warn people about to make a bad (but not sinful) decision then how do you explain your Limited status? Did you ignore the Holy Ghost? because someone didn't recognize (or listen) to the spirit. Why would the holy ghost "sometimes" help? Might as well believe it is a coincidence. 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: "Good feelings" are not the same as the Holy Ghost. There are any number of things that can make us feel good. Your explanation of being inspired to do good and an increased understanding are much better descriptions of how we are told the Holy Ghost works. at least you didn't tell me there are a number of things that can increase our understanding. 2 hours ago, hope_for_things said: Perhaps God is helping the LDS church right now by exposing the problems in the current system through this scandal which hopefully will be a catalyst for change. How is God exposing controversial problems? Your view of the spirit is indistinguishable from normal human thoughts 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: The economy of God requires the we apply both secular and sacred measures to all our endeavors. Nephi in Heleman chapter 8 didn't need to verify. God gave us the scriptures so we can learn how he works.
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