hope_for_things Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 Thinking about the MTC president scandal in the news, and I started talking to a friend about what I think is a common phenomenon with the LDS church around the concepts of the Holy Ghost, discernment, and inspiration. Let me explain. There seems to be a belief that the Holy Ghost is a replacement or cure all of sorts for many things that are handled differently in contemporary society. Yet time and time again we see examples where this trust falls short. Let me list a few examples where people assume that the Holy Ghost/discernment/inspiration makes up for the lack of formalized policies and practices. Instead of: Background checks on leaders who work with children we have - HG/discernment/inspiration Rigorous training for leaders we have - HG/discernment/inspiration Financial transparency we have - HG/discernment/inspiration Defined policies to protect abuse victims we have - HG/discernment/inspiration These were just a few ideas off the top of my head, but you get the picture. Does this trust in the Holy Ghost operate as a sort of cure all in our contemporary church? A kind of snake oil that is supposed to fill in the gaps for all the areas where the church doesn't have sufficient programs and practices in place? What other areas of deficiency are there that you hear people using the Holy Ghost as a way to fill the gaps of a process? Any other thoughts about this, or am I getting this wrong? Do NOT compare sacred concepts to snake oil on this board. I have modified your title. If this disrespect continues the thread will be closed and you will be put on Limited. 2
Gray Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 (edited) There are all kinds of superstitions built up around the Holy Ghost, from many different denominations. I am convinced that the Holy Ghost (aka spiritual/numinous experiences) never tell us things that we don't already know on some level. The Holy Ghost is not a lie detector, it won't make you competent where you haven't bothered to study, it won't protect you from people you haven't bothered to vet. The Holy Ghost is an experience that adds a lot of value to life, but it's not a magical cure-all, nor is it a short-cut to actual competency. Edited March 23, 2018 by Gray 4
Exiled Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 I think "inspiration" is from within and not without. Studying it out in your mind and consulting whatever sources there are in aid of such study, then using one's brain to analyze and then ultimately decide is what D&C 9:7-9 is all about. The burning then comes from within due to the effort expended. Claiming that it comes from without is merely an ad hoc way to give God credit for something the individual did themselves. Of course when it fails as it did time and time again with Bishop, God doesn't take the responsibility for the miscommunication. The individual does. 2
hope_for_things Posted March 23, 2018 Author Posted March 23, 2018 23 minutes ago, Gray said: There are all kinds of superstitions built up around the Holy Ghost, from many different denominations. I am convinced that the Holy Ghost (aka spiritual/numinous experiences) never tell us things that we don't already know on some level. The Holy Ghost is not a lie detector, it won't make you competent where you haven't bothered to study, it won't protect you from people you haven't bothered to vet. The Holy Ghost is an experience that adds a lot of value to life, but it's not a magical cure-all, nor is it a short-cut to actual competency. Yes, I completely agree, and I think this does happen with other denominations as well. But I think this problem is magnified in Mormonism because of the lay ministry and this idea that because of the HG/inspiration that these leaders are given a cure all that makes up for their lack of training and resources. Its a very naive and risky proposition. I like some aspects of our lay ministry, but there are serious gaps that need to be filled. 1
hope_for_things Posted March 23, 2018 Author Posted March 23, 2018 10 minutes ago, Exiled said: I think "inspiration" is from within and not without. Studying it out in your mind and consulting whatever sources there are in aid of such study, then using one's brain to analyze and then ultimately decide is what D&C 9:7-9 is all about. The burning then comes from within due to the effort expended. Claiming that it comes from without is merely an ad hoc way to give God credit for something the individual did themselves. Of course when it fails as it did time and time again with Bishop, God doesn't take the responsibility for the miscommunication. The individual does. I would agree, so then why does the church rely on the HG to fill in the gaps of process and policies that other institutions put in place? This seems like an irresponsible reliance on a concept that doesn't work in the real world.
drums12 Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 I'm glad you've all got it figured out. Funny how some folks who no longer accept with certainty some Church teachings, e.g. the Holy Ghost as a guide,etc, now have seeming certainty about their new paradigms. As anyone familiar with me knows, I have a lot of uncertainty about a lot of Church teachings, policies, etc. But I hope I don't confuse my doubts/uncertainties for having arrived at some superior state of enlightenment. 3
The Nehor Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 No. If it were Peter would have made a tidy sum selling it to Simon the Sorceror. The Holy Ghost is not intended as a panacea for all the problems you want to blame it for not correcting. You are complaining that a lawn mower is no good for cleaning the drains. 4
Gray Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 12 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Yes, I completely agree, and I think this does happen with other denominations as well. But I think this problem is magnified in Mormonism because of the lay ministry and this idea that because of the HG/inspiration that these leaders are given a cure all that makes up for their lack of training and resources. Its a very naive and risky proposition. I like some aspects of our lay ministry, but there are serious gaps that need to be filled. Yes, it's often expressed this way - "Whom the Lord calls, the Lord qualifies" In some ways the lay clergy thing is nice, even charming, but there are some serious drawbacks to it as well. 3
Marginal Gains Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, The Nehor said: No. If it were Peter would have made a tidy sum selling it to Simon the Sorceror. The Holy Ghost is not intended as a panacea for all the problems you want to blame it for not correcting. You are complaining that a lawn mower is no good for cleaning the drains. So what, specifically, is the Holy Ghost reliably good for? Edited March 23, 2018 by Marginal Gains 1
Exiled Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 1 minute ago, hope_for_things said: I would agree, so then why does the church rely on the HG to fill in the gaps of process and policies that other institutions put in place? This seems like an irresponsible reliance on a concept that doesn't work in the real world. I don't think they rely as much on the HG as members think. The church always tests new programs in small areas prior to putting them in place in the larger church. The church, according to John Dehlin, has a huge database of potentials for higher callings that it consults when someone is called. I am sure there has been extensive background checks done on the apostles that will soon be called. The leadership never just jumps based on some "inspiration" someone got, never. It is always deliberate, after heavy consultation. I really think "inspiration," in a practical sense, is merely giving God credit when it works and blaming the individual when it doesn't.
Gray Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, drums12 said: I'm glad you've all got it figured out. Funny how some folks who no longer accept with certainty some Church teachings, e.g. the Holy Ghost as a guide,etc, now have seeming certainty about their new paradigms. As anyone familiar with me knows, I have a lot of uncertainty about a lot of Church teachings, policies, etc. But I hope I don't confuse my doubts/uncertainties for having arrived at some superior state of enlightenment. What's worse, feeling confident about a new conclusion, or feeling superior because you don't feel so confident? 1
hope_for_things Posted March 23, 2018 Author Posted March 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, drums12 said: I'm glad you've all got it figured out. Funny how some folks who no longer accept with certainty some Church teachings, e.g. the Holy Ghost as a guide,etc, now have seeming certainty about their new paradigms. As anyone familiar with me knows, I have a lot of uncertainty about a lot of Church teachings, policies, etc. But I hope I don't confuse my doubts/uncertainties for having arrived at some superior state of enlightenment. I'm not sure where you got the impression that I feel my current ideas are superior or enlightened. I definitely don't feel that way, I'm just an average person making observations on a message board about current events that I'm thinking about and find interesting. If you disagree with my observations, please comment as to why in a little more detail so we can have a dialogue about it. Based on your response I'm assuming you think the church shouldn't background check or do the other things I listed because you do believe that the Holy Ghost effectively fills in the gaps in these processes. 1
Popular Post Kevin Christensen Posted March 23, 2018 Popular Post Posted March 23, 2018 (edited) For the record, to teach primary children in the Pleasant Hills ward in PIttsburgh, I had to have a background check. It's standard procedure for everyone. My wife had hers already through work. And we always had to teach in pairs, never alone. Explain how these verse describe HG inspiration as a cure all that makes up for anyone's lack of training and resources: Quote Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, ... Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding. 25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known; 26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed; 27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent; 28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time. Regarding inspiration, I have experienced it occasionally. Not all the time. But sometimes. And I have experienced it on a few occasions as a group experience. Even, on three crucial occasions, I saw this one happen to my wife: Quote Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost? 3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do. On these occasions, we both knew exactly what was happening, and who was speaking, and why. But that experience does not mean that we also don't have our own normal blundering at times. Even most of the time. To say I am occasionally inspired is not to declare that I have become God's Sock Puppet, and have only one input, and one output. I've recently quoted Alma as one who reports on a diverse set of inputs, ranging from God to opinion. Remember that insisting on perfection, insisting that everything and everyone involved with an institution that is quite literally an assembly of people of all different kinds always live up to some abstractly imagined ideal, always has the effect of rendering imperfection as the only decisive and significant information. And I have been involved in many training sessions, both giving and receiving. FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA Edited March 23, 2018 by Kevin Christensen 6
hope_for_things Posted March 23, 2018 Author Posted March 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, The Nehor said: No. If it were Peter would have made a tidy sum selling it to Simon the Sorceror. The Holy Ghost is not intended as a panacea for all the problems you want to blame it for not correcting. You are complaining that a lawn mower is no good for cleaning the drains. I'm just pointing out assumptions that I think other Mormons are using based on my observations. Why else wouldn't the church background check, or have more rigorous training or policies to protect people? Have you never observed people using the Holy Ghost or inspiration as a fall back position in LDS circles?
Marginal Gains Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said: For the record, to teach primary children in the Pleasant Hills ward in PIttsburgh, I had to have a background check. It's standard procedure for everyone. My wife had hers already through work. And we always had to teach in pairs, never alone. Explain how these verse describe HG inspiration as a cure all that makes up for anyone's lack of training and resources: Regarding inspiration, I have experienced it occasionally. Not all the time. But sometimes. And I have experienced it on a few occasions as a group experience. Even, on three crucial occasions, I saw this one happen to my wife: On these occasions, we both knew exactly what was happening, and who was speaking, and why. But that experience does not mean that we also have our own normal blundering at times. Even most of the time. To say I am occasionally inspired is not to declare that I have become God's Sock Puppet, and have only one input, and one output. I've recently quoted Alma as one who reports on a diverse set of inputs, ranging from God to opinion. Remember that insisting on perfection, insisting that everything and everyone involved with an institution that is quite literally an assembly of people of all different kinds always live up to some abstractly imagined ideal, always has the effect of rendering imperfection as the only decisive and significant information. And I have been involved in many training sessions, both giving and receiving. FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA How do you know it's the Holy Ghost (as opposed to random chance, good fortune, or confirmation bias) inspiring you on those rare occasions the planets align for you?
hope_for_things Posted March 23, 2018 Author Posted March 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, Exiled said: I don't think they rely as much on the HG as members think. The church always tests new programs in small areas prior to putting them in place in the larger church. The church, according to John Dehlin, has a huge database of potentials for higher callings that it consults when someone is called. I am sure there has been extensive background checks done on the apostles that will soon be called. The leadership never just jumps based on some "inspiration" someone got, never. It is always deliberate, after heavy consultation. I really think "inspiration," in a practical sense, is merely giving God credit when it works and blaming the individual when it doesn't. Is this only done for GAs then? Why not local leaders who work with children. Other churches, schools, governments, businesses, background check their people that work with children. Why not the church, they have the funds and resources to do it. This seems like negligence to me.
The Nehor Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: So what, specifically, is the Holy Ghost reliably good for? Being warned when you are about to commit a sin. Comfort in your afflictions. Testifying of the gospel. Those are the guaranteed ones (assuming you are worthy, etc) Sometimes the Holy Ghost warns of spiritual, emotional, or physical danger. Sometimes he provides counsel on which decision to make when facing life choices. Sometimes he steps in and prompts us to do something or not do something. Sometimes it prompts leaders on who needs help. Sometimes! Some people hear a Holy Ghost helping in a “sometimes” circumstance and assume it always happens. They are wrong and then insist it is not working right. Sometimes they make threads about it. 4
Marginal Gains Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Being warned when you are about to commit a sin. Comfort in your afflictions. Testifying of the gospel. Those are the guaranteed ones (assuming you are worthy, etc) Sometimes the Holy Ghost warns of spiritual, emotional, or physical danger. Sometimes he provides counsel on which decision to make when facing life choices. Sometimes he steps in and prompts us to do something or not do something. Sometimes it prompts leaders on who needs help. Sometimes! Some people hear a Holy Ghost helping in a “sometimes” circumstance and assume it always happens. They are wrong and then insist it is not working right. Sometimes they make threads about it. My Magic 8 ball does all of that, with equal reliability. How do you reliably differentiate between the Holy ghost and confirmation bias? How do you explain the Holy Ghost testifying that the Gospel of the FLDS is true, or the Gospel of Scientologists or...there's lots of religions who claim that the Holy Ghost testifies their brand of religion is true. Edited March 23, 2018 by Marginal Gains
The Nehor Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 Just now, Marginal Gains said: My Magic 8 ball does all of that, with equal reliability. Good for you. Use it then. I prefer the supernal joy the Holy Ghost gives but to each their own. 3
Exiled Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Is this only done for GAs then? Why not local leaders who work with children. Other churches, schools, governments, businesses, background check their people that work with children. Why not the church, they have the funds and resources to do it. This seems like negligence to me. More vetting should be done for sure with the local leaders. I am sure the church could spare a few bucks to make it happen. An ounce of prevention is always better than a pound of cure.
Marginal Gains Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 Just now, The Nehor said: Good for you. Use it then. I prefer the supernal joy the Holy Ghost gives but to each their own. I'm willing to wager that you cannot explain what you mean by what you just said in such a way that differentiates it from equally liable to being confirmation bias...
The Nehor Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: I'm willing to wager that you cannot explain what you mean by what you just said in such a way that differentiates it from equally liable to being confirmation bias... I agree that I would be unable to convince you if I tried. 3
JLHPROF Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: Instead of: Background checks on leaders who work with children we have - HG/discernment/inspiration Rigorous training for leaders we have - HG/discernment/inspiration Financial transparency we have - HG/discernment/inspiration Defined policies to protect abuse victims we have - HG/discernment/inspiration These were just a few ideas off the top of my head, but you get the picture. Does this trust in the Holy Ghost operate as a sort of cure all in our contemporary church? A kind of snake oil that is supposed to fill in the gaps for all the areas where the church doesn't have sufficient programs and practices in place? What other areas of deficiency are there that you hear people using the Holy Ghost as a way to fill the gaps of a process? Any other thoughts about this, or am I getting this wrong? For some reason the phrase "arm of flesh" keeps coming to mind. God expects us to do our due diligence in all areas of life. But that in no way negates the Holy Ghost. And the Holy Ghost doesn't trump agency either. It's not going to overrule our bad decisions. I agree that the Church can always improve, but you seem to be advocating putting trust in man's processes because God's appear ineffective to you. That would be a quick road to apostasy for the Church. 2
CV75 Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: Thinking about the MTC president scandal in the news, and I started talking to a friend about what I think is a common phenomenon with the LDS church around the concepts of the Holy Ghost, discernment, and inspiration. Let me explain. There seems to be a belief that the Holy Ghost is a replacement or cure all of sorts for many things that are handled differently in contemporary society. Yet time and time again we see examples where this trust falls short. Let me list a few examples where people assume that the Holy Ghost/discernment/inspiration makes up for the lack of formalized policies and practices. Instead of: Background checks on leaders who work with children we have - HG/discernment/inspiration Rigorous training for leaders we have - HG/discernment/inspiration Financial transparency we have - HG/discernment/inspiration Defined policies to protect abuse victims we have - HG/discernment/inspiration These were just a few ideas off the top of my head, but you get the picture. Does this trust in the Holy Ghost operate as a sort of cure all in our contemporary church? A kind of snake oil that is supposed to fill in the gaps for all the areas where the church doesn't have sufficient programs and practices in place? What other areas of deficiency are there that you hear people using the Holy Ghost as a way to fill the gaps of a process? Any other thoughts about this, or am I getting this wrong? According to this article, you seem to be wrong if you are characterizing the Church as a whole: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/09/church-handbooks-the-written-order-of-things?lang=eng I understand your list is from the top of your head based on the recent thread topics, but what have you personally come across in this vein that isn’t countered by other experience, and how do you take that as representative of the Church in general?
hope_for_things Posted March 23, 2018 Author Posted March 23, 2018 32 minutes ago, Gray said: Yes, it's often expressed this way - "Whom the Lord calls, the Lord qualifies" In some ways the lay clergy thing is nice, even charming, but there are some serious drawbacks to it as well. Yes, that is the verse, I was trying to think of. I've heard this principle expressed by leaders who say that this qualifying by the Lord essentially covers up for normal human limitations. Those who I've heard talk like this express that they believe this is a great blessing and an evidence of miraculous divine guidance over the church.
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