Patriarchal Blessings: Are You Ready?

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/18/2018 at 11:01 AM, bluebell said:

Yes, I have said some truly controversial things.  I dared to state that prophets in the bible are not perfect and sometimes needed to repent.  And I also implied that Jesus, who taught that loving our fellow man as we love ourselves is the second greatest commandment, doesn't condone making fun of someone in a cruel or derisive manner.   

 

Cruel or derisive?

Quote

14Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue leader said to the people, “There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath.”

15The Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water?16Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?”

17When he said this, all his opponents were humiliated, but the people were delighted with all the wonderful things he was doing.

Quote

The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

 

Quote

2“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.3So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.4They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5  “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long;6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;7they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

8  “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.9And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.10Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah.11The greatest among you will be your servant.12For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

13  “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

15  “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

16  “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?18You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?20Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.21And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.22And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23  “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25  “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27  “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29  “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.32Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33  “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?34Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.36Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

37  “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.38Look, your house is left to you desolate.39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’

Quote

 

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Cruel or derisive?

 

No, the Savior has never been cruel or derisive.  

[Duncan]

Here's some questions about PB's. If God know your future then  why does he give PB to people he knows will go inactive? If he knows what he wants them to do won't he also know they'll bail on the Church? if they do go inactive what happens to what they are supposed to do? does it it fall to someone else? A related question, I have a 1950's talk from Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith wherein he says that Elder Alonzo A. Hinckley, who briefly served as a member of the Twelve  20 years earlier, had gotten his PB and it said he would serve as an Apostle, he didn't believe it, put it in a drawer(i'm paraphrasing) and forgot about it until he was called in 1934 to be an Apostle. Does disbelief in the promises affect the outcome, it didn't seem to for Elder Hinckley, it came to pass regardless of whether or not he believed it, or is the outcome based on activity in the Church?

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Here's some questions about PB's. If God know your future then  why does he give PB to people he knows will go inactive? If he knows what he wants them to do won't he also know they'll bail on the Church? if they do go inactive what happens to what they are supposed to do? does it it fall to someone else? A related question, I have a 1950's talk from Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith wherein he says that Elder Alonzo A. Hinckley, who briefly served as a member of the Twelve  20 years earlier, had gotten his PB and it said he would serve as an Apostle, he didn't believe it, put it in a drawer(i'm paraphrasing) and forgot about it until he was called in 1934 to be an Apostle. Does disbelief in the promises affect the outcome, it didn't seem to for Elder Hinckley, it came to pass regardless of whether or not he believed it, or is the outcome based on activity in the Church?

Isn't that like asking, if God knows who the Sons of perdition are why does He bother allowing them to be born at all?

I think the answer lies in agency and justice.  I think that God has to provide the opportunity for people to choose the good, even when He knows they won't take it.  I think it's at least partly so that, during the final judgment, we will know that His judgment of us is just.  We won't be able to say "but I would have done better if only given the chance!!"  

There's probably more to it than just that but that seems like a large part.

[Duncan]

Also! My brother's PB and mine aren't the same but they have the same language , which it was given by the same man, but is it possible to have the same phrases but they mean different things? Like, God asks something different from my bro and I but it's phrased the same way?

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

No, the Savior has never been cruel or derisive.  

Could you address the quotes?

[rongo]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

Here's some questions about PB's. If God know your future then  why does he give PB to people he knows will go inactive? If he knows what he wants them to do won't he also know they'll bail on the Church? if they do go inactive what happens to what they are supposed to do? does it it fall to someone else? A related question, I have a 1950's talk from Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith wherein he says that Elder Alonzo A. Hinckley, who briefly served as a member of the Twelve  20 years earlier, had gotten his PB and it said he would serve as an Apostle, he didn't believe it, put it in a drawer(i'm paraphrasing) and forgot about it until he was called in 1934 to be an Apostle. Does disbelief in the promises affect the outcome, it didn't seem to for Elder Hinckley, it came to pass regardless of whether or not he believed it, or is the outcome based on activity in the Church?

1) Not everyone believes that God's omniscience is absolute. I don't. That means that God may not know people 100% will go inactive.

2) They are a guide, and often lay out blessings and warnings, depending on counsel and obedience. In other words, they lay out possibilities and guidance with those possibilities, but the blessings and warnings (consequences) are subject to obedience/disobedience.

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Could you address the quotes?

How do I need to address them?  

Being honest and mocking someone are two different things. The Savior was sometimes harsh and sometimes blunt (when He knew, through His special abilities, that He needed to be), but He was never cruel (saying something with the intent to harm) and He was never derisive (saying something with the intent to ridicule).

[Duncan]

37 minutes ago, rongo said:

1) Not everyone believes that God's omniscience is absolute. I don't. That means that God may not know people 100% will go inactive.

2) They are a guide, and often lay out blessings and warnings, depending on counsel and obedience. In other words, they lay out possibilities and guidance with those possibilities, but the blessings and warnings (consequences) are subject to obedience/disobedience.

when you say possibilities, what do you mean? I mean it's possible I might get hit by a drunk driver, or it's possible I may decide to run for public office or it's possible I might get sick eating subway at the foodcourt, it's possible that PB can say whatever and none of the promises get fulfilled how do you base your life on possibilities? Mine, only 2 have happened or are happening out of about 30 promises, despite me trying to be faithful so is this a sign that God doesn't think i'm faithful enough or it's all hogwash or like what is going on? 

[rongo]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

when you say possibilities, what do you mean?

I mean that if you XYZ and don't ABC, then these are prophesied blessings or consequences. 

I mean it's possible I might get hit by a drunk driver, or it's possible I may decide to run for public office or it's possible I might get sick eating subway at the foodcourt,

Based solely on my own experience (my parents and siblings, my and my wife's and 3/4 children), PBs are much more specific and meaningful than vague, horoscope/fortune cookie prophecies. I have heard anecdotally from others that theirs are more horoscope/fortune cookie vague, but this isn't my own experience where I am in a position to know. 

it's possible that PB can say whatever and none of the promises get fulfilled how do you base your life on possibilities?

By adhering to the promises, and heeding the warnings. Even paraplegics can feel the spirit and get strong blessings from the promises in the iniatiatory ordinances . . .  

Sometimes, people have to cling to the spiritual and not the overtly physical in seeing the realization of PB blessings. And, "in the Millennium" and "in the next life" are valid fulfillment of some of these, and not just desperate special pleading.

Mine, only 2 have happened or are happening out of about 30 promises, despite me trying to be faithful so is this a sign that God doesn't think i'm faithful enough or it's all hogwash or like what is going on?

That isn't my read on you at all, based on my interactions with you here. My sister is in a similar position. Her husband was excommunicated when their son was six months old, and she hasn't remarried. That son graduates from high school in May. Some of her promises relating to marriage and family remain unfulfilled. For people who really want authoritative answers and believe God really can give them to them, that is the source to seek light and knowledge from for that. Those are difficult questions that can only be answered by him. 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

How do I need to address them?  

Being honest and mocking someone are two different things. The Savior was sometimes harsh and sometimes blunt (when He knew, through His special abilities, that He needed to be), but He was never cruel (saying something with the intent to harm) and He was never derisive (saying something with the intent to ridicule).

I guess we see them differently. 

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I guess we see them differently. 

You see Christ as someone who would be cruel and ridicule God's children?  

[Bernard Gui]

23 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You see Christ as someone who would be cruel and ridicule God's children?  

That's not what I said. I gave examples of words he used that were demeaning and cruel....to call a woman a dog?

In the end, perhaps he was testing her faith, but had she taken offense rather than engage in the teaching moment,

I think an apology or explanation would have been given. He certainly ridiculed the Jewish leaders who came out against

him, but they are children of God, too. In the end, even they will bow the knee and confess Jesus is the Christ, not out of force,

but out of love and a complete understanding of what He did for them. That's how I see it, you see it differently.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

58 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

That's not what I said. I gave examples of words he used that were demeaning and cruel....to call a woman a dog?I

I've studied that scripture story and so I don't see her as calling a woman a dog.  I believe Talmage is who I'm remembering as describing it differently (comparing a child to a pet, for example-with one having the right to something and the other not, though it's still loved and treated well by the family.  The woman then reminds Jesus that pets have access to the scraps that children leave behind, prompting Him to bless her).  I don't have time to check right now but i'll try to remember to see if I'm remembering right.

Quote

He certainly ridiculed the Jewish leaders who came out against.

I don't believe He did.  He spoke strongly, and negatively of them, but I don't believe that that equals ridicule.  

 

[e-eye]

6 hours ago, Duncan said:

Here's some questions about PB's. If God know your future then  why does he give PB to people he knows will go inactive? If he knows what he wants them to do won't he also know they'll bail on the Church? if they do go inactive what happens to what they are supposed to do? does it it fall to someone else? A related question, I have a 1950's talk from Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith wherein he says that Elder Alonzo A. Hinckley, who briefly served as a member of the Twelve  20 years earlier, had gotten his PB and it said he would serve as an Apostle, he didn't believe it, put it in a drawer(i'm paraphrasing) and forgot about it until he was called in 1934 to be an Apostle. Does disbelief in the promises affect the outcome, it didn't seem to for Elder Hinckley, it came to pass regardless of whether or not he believed it, or is the outcome based on activity in the Church?

That's a good question.

My 2 cents.  I think God does know the outcome since he doesn't have past, present, future as it's all the same to him but there in lies the power of what he does for us.  If God gives us every opportunity to prove ourselves and to become like him part of that is giving us the guidance we need.  I imagine just like he gives us prophets, scripture, holy ghost etc.  he also gives us a patriarchal blessing. Yes he know some people will fall away but for some it will be faith building.  The blessing will be for our benefit or it could be for our condemnation.  I for one have found my blessing as truly a blessing in my life - without it, my outcome would have been influenced differently or at least the path has been better understood which brings peace.  

[Jeanne]

34 minutes ago, e-eye said:

That's a good question.

My 2 cents.  I think God does know the outcome since he doesn't have past, present, future as it's all the same to him but there in lies the power of what he does for us.  If God gives us every opportunity to prove ourselves and to become like him part of that is giving us the guidance we need.  I imagine just like he gives us prophets, scripture, holy ghost etc.  he also gives us a patriarchal blessing. Yes he know some people will fall away but for some it will be faith building.  The blessing will be for our benefit or it could be for our condemnation.  I for one have found my blessing as truly a blessing in my life - without it, my outcome would have been influenced differently or at least the path has been better understood which brings peace.  

But if he knows that they will fall away...and gives them a certain knowledge such as PB...this makes their fall more difficult..judging according to their  knowledge. 

 

[Rain]

7 hours ago, Duncan said:

Here's some questions about PB's. If God know your future then  why does he give PB to people he knows will go inactive? If he knows what he wants them to do won't he also know they'll bail on the Church? if they do go inactive what happens to what they are supposed to do? does it it fall to someone else? A related question, I have a 1950's talk from Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith wherein he says that Elder Alonzo A. Hinckley, who briefly served as a member of the Twelve  20 years earlier, had gotten his PB and it said he would serve as an Apostle, he didn't believe it, put it in a drawer(i'm paraphrasing) and forgot about it until he was called in 1934 to be an Apostle. Does disbelief in the promises affect the outcome, it didn't seem to for Elder Hinckley, it came to pass regardless of whether or not he believed it, or is the outcome based on activity in the Church?

I don't think it is only our agency that makes a difference. I think the agency of others can make a difference as well, but through the atonement the Lord takes care of it. 

I believe that, yes, those things we do not do fall to someone else. You have scriptures like being anxiously engaged in good or not being commanded in all things. I think some of those things are things others chose not to do. Or sometimes those things just don't get done, but there again, that is taken care of through the atonement.

7 hours ago, Duncan said:

Also! My brother's PB and mine aren't the same but they have the same language , which it was given by the same man, but is it possible to have the same phrases but they mean different things? Like, God asks something different from my bro and I but it's phrased the same way?

I'm trying to figure out how to ask this without you sharing your blessings. How do you know these blessings are not the same? Do they just feel differently? Is it that the same phrases are here and there, but overall the blessings are different? 

If it is the same phrases, but overall different blessing then that makes sense. The patriarch still has his own language, own culture, own words he grew up with even as each different blessing comes along. For example, I could tell my daughter "way to go on your physics test!" Or my son, "way to go on your high jump!" Same phrasing, but they are specific to each child.

If it feels different then it could make sense as well. My husband understands things differently than I do sometimes. If the patriarch were to say, "take care of your family" in both of our blessings we would have very different ideas as to what that means. 

I also think sometimes there only so many ways to say something that may apply to thousands or even millions of people. 

And last I think sometimes you just don't receive revelation for whatever reason, though I would never jump to that first, nor would I be able to judge it well depending on the softness of my heart and the authority I have over the other person. 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Rain

[Rain]

13 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

But if he knows that they will fall away...and gives them a certain knowledge such as PB...this makes their fall more difficult..judging according to their  knowledge. 

 

Yes, but agency comes from knowing. You can't choose if you are not given a choice.

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Rain said:

Yes, but agency comes from knowing. You can't choose if you are not given a choice.

Well duh...this is true.  The whole thing is kind of confusing.  Thanks Rain!!

Edited February 22, 2018 by Jeanne

[Duncan]

11 minutes ago, Rain said:

I don't think it is only our agency that makes a difference. I think the agency of others can make a difference as well, but through the atonement the Lord takes care of it. 

I believe that yes, those things we do not do fall to someone else. You have scriptures like being anxiously engaged in good or not being commanded in all things. I think some of those things are things others chose not to do. Or sometimes those things just don't get done, but there again, that is taken care of through the atonement.

I'm trying to figure out how to ask this without you sharing your blessings. How do you know these blessings ate not the same? Do they just feel differently? Is it that the same phrases are here and there, but overall the blessings are different? 

If it is the same phrases, but overall different blessing then that makes sense. The patriarch still has his own language, own culture, own words he grew up with even as each different blessing comes along. For example, I could tell my daughter "way to go on your physics tests!" Or my son, "way to go on your high jump!" Same phrasing, but they are specific to each child.

If it feels different then it could make sense as well. My husband understands things differently than I do sometimes. If the patriarch were to say, "take care of your family" in both of our blessings we would have very different ideas as to what that means. 

I also think sometimes there only so many ways to say something that may apply to thousands or even millions of people. 

And last I think sometimes you just don't receive revelation for whatever reason, though I would never jump to that first, nor would I be able to judge it well depending on the softness of my heart and the authority I have over the other person. 

an example and not saying this is us but would be Bryant Hinckley and his brother Alonzo, if God said something like "you'll be a builder of the kingdom" well, we know that one was an Apostle but the other one wasn't, but both built the kingdom in their respective ways but how they did it and what callings they had to do that were different, I wonder if that is what is happening with my bro and me. We are oil and water different but we're both members

[Rain]

59 minutes ago, Duncan said:

an example and not saying this is us but would be Bryant Hinckley and his brother Alonzo, if God said something like "you'll be a builder of the kingdom" well, we know that one was an Apostle but the other one wasn't, but both built the kingdom in their respective ways but how they did it and what callings they had to do that were different, I wonder if that is what is happening with my bro and me. We are oil and water different but we're both members

Could be. I often thought when my boys were young that they each had been called to very different roles, but that they work on some of the same stuff in their own respective talents.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Rain

[Five Solas]

23 hours ago, Alaris said:

In case nobody here has extended the invitation to you, I'd like to do so now. I invite you to spend ~ 20 minutes reading the Book of Mormon and encourage you to begin with a humble prayer. Ask God to help you see whether this material is true. Read, ponder, and listen. Then pray and ask God in the name of Jesus Christ whether the Book of Mormon is true. ~ 20 minutes is all it takes.

Moroni - the last prophet in the Book of Mormon - closed the book with this promise:

Moroni 10:3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may knowthe truth of all things.

I followed this promise when I was 18 as I needed to know for myself whether the Book of Mormon is true. When I prayed, I knew it to the core of my soul that the Book of Mormon is true--what an immense and beautiful feeling! I spent 2 years doing my darndest to convince others to spend ~ 20 minutes and sincerely ask God if the Book of Mormon is true. You'd think it would be easy - look and live! Though it wasn't as easy as I would have liked, I was blessed to see well over 30 people follow the promise - every time - every single time they did, they received an answer. I didn't even have to ask on the follow up visit. I could just see it in their eyes. They knew. And we saw eye to eye. Of course not every person who received an answer was baptized, but many were. The Lord allows those who know to be tested to see if they have what it takes to withstand the fire. 

So, if you're comfortable where you are in life perhaps this isn't the time. However, if you're willing to be unconformable to know God - if you're willing to forsake family to know God - then I challenge you to look and live brother

No, I don't recall anyone here ever has "extended the invitation," Alaris.  Congratulations, I suppose, on being the first.  Perhaps it's because I've been very transparent along the way.  Or perhaps it's because uncertain folks google "Five Solas"--and after that they assume it's Game Over.  Not that they'd be wrong...

;0)

You'll find this hugely ironic in light of your post--but Moroni 10:4 proved the undoing of the whole thing.  Because I'd read the BoM many times and never experienced any discernible outcome in response to repeated prayers, I came to the conclusion my problem was that I wasn't meeting its prerequisite--faith in Christ.  You see, I actually came to take it seriously.  And then God used that.  I shared the story here, if you're interested.  Transparency suits me. 

When I told you my motivation for participating on the board, I wasn't kidding.  But in light of your response, I suspect you misunderstood me.  If you wish to retract the "like" you gave me--no worries.

--Erik

____________________________________

I just see contradiction
Had to give up the fight
Just to live in the past tense
To make believe you were right

--Joy Division, 1978

[Scott Lloyd]

On 2/22/2018 at 8:30 AM, bluebell said:

No, the Savior has never been cruel or derisive.  

I can easily conceive that the hypocritical Pharisees to whom the Savior directed His denunciation might disagree with you.

One could argue that the Pharisees had a different "truth" than Jesus did. But that would be silly -- which goes to the point I've been making about the "your truth" vs. "my truth" trope.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Five Solas]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I can easily conceive that the hypocritical Pharisees to whom the Savior directed His denunciation might disagree with you.

One could argue that the Pharisees had a different "truth" than Jesus did. But that would be silly -- which goes to the point I've been making about the "your truth" vs. "my truth" trope.

I must be wrong if Scott Lloyd is agreeing with me.  Throw me a lifeline, bluebell!

;0)

--Erik

_______________________________________

Well, I really had a ball last night
I held all the pretty boys tight
I was feeling single, seeing double
Wound up in a whole lotta trouble
But today I'll face the big fight
But I really had a ball last night

--Emmylou Harris, 1975

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I must be wrong if Scott Lloyd is agreeing with me.  Throw me a lifeline, bluebell!

;0)

--Erik

_______________________________________

Well, I really had a ball last night
I held all the pretty boys tight
I was feeling single, seeing double
Wound up in a whole lotta trouble
But today I'll face the big fight
But I really had a ball last night

--Emmylou Harris, 1975

I've never denied that you can be right on occasion.

The problem is that nearly every post you make here is cast in the form of denigration of Mormons or their faith.

Even on this subject. You could not disagree with Bluebell without making a broad-brush dig at Mormons and Mormonism, as though she represented binding orthodoxy in her view about the behavior of Elijah toward the priests of Baal.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Scott Lloyd