Utah Ward Invites LGBT Speakers for 2nd and 3rd Hour

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

As my signature states, I believe we should strive for compassion for everyone we meet.

You’vr alluded to pain experienced by some at the hands of homosexuals who had no champion. Please provide examples of such. Consider this a solid CFR.

I have mentioned an autobiography I read. I don’t recall the title, but the author is Jonathan King. He wrote and recorded a hit song in the sixties called “Everyone’s Gone to the Moon” and had a very successful career as a music producer and promoter and record company executive. 

You can Google his name and probably read about the charges, criminal court case and prison term he served. 

[USU78]

3 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

As my signature states, I believe we should strive for compassion for everyone we meet.

You’vr alluded to pain experienced by some at the hands of homosexuals who had no champion. Please provide examples of such. Consider this a solid CFR.

Their stories are theirs to tell. Your curiosity as to details is worth less than my integrity. That said, I'm reasonably certain I could convince some folks to participate in the appropriate event.

Find me some sponsors, I'll find the venue.

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

“Unbalanced exposure”...?

As I said.... control motivated by fear.

If your “truths” are so flimsy they can’t stand even the slightest possibility of exposure to opposing opinions that couldn’t be comprehensively addressed in subsequent discussions, that speaks volumes in and of itself.

Actually I think he is saying the reverse of how you may be interpreting it...I was suggesting we could more effectively provide balanced exposure by being the first or at least one of the first sources to inform people's opinion by presenting controversial topics in church settings, as they do now in seminary with the gospel topics (I believe it is pretty much a given that youth and adults will come across anti material if they use the Internet for any research these days based on my own experience).  He was saying such caution was not needed, if I understand him correctly...at least for certain subjects.  People should be trusted to look for the balanced information on their own in his view.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Calm

[Daniel2]

4 minutes ago, USU78 said:

You ignore my point: the inequity where only the politically popular with powerful sponsors and champions get worship services co-opted to air their grievances and pain. And nobody dares offer criticism of those whose careless or malicious abuse leaves scarred victims in their wake.

As to your question: Show me the support group for wives neglected and abandoned, children left with no footing in a world rendered unintelligible by selfish, narcissistic and now long gone but now sexually fulfilled homosexual daddies. When was the last fundraiser for the seduced teeniebopper now adult man with severe emotional and psychosexual scarring? Or his put upon wife and children compelled to endure the inevitable consequences of dad's scars?

Where's the compassion for those folks?

This Riverton event leaves me nothing but cold.

No, I’m not ignoring your point. I’m asking for proof of it.

And as I’ve said, I’ll be happy to add my voice in support of those who’ve suffered trauma and abuse at the hands of others, whether the perpetrators are straight, bi, or gay.

Yes, there ARE support networks for straight spouses who’ve been abandoned by gay husbands and wives.

The Straight Spouse Support Network is chief among them. And their discussion forum: http://straightspouse.boardhost.com/index_mobile.php

The book “The Other Side of The Closet” is phenomenal, and one I read in full before coming out to my own wife: https://www.amazon.com/Other-Side-Closet-Coming-Out-Straight/dp/0471021520/ref=nodl_

How Straight Spouses Cope When Their Partners Come Out http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/10/09/straight_spouse_network_helps_partners_of_gay_people_cope_after_they_come.html

‘Collateral Damage’ in the LGBT Community: Straight Spouses, Still in the Darkest Corner of the Closet https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1900765

[USU78]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I have mentioned an autobiography I read. I don’t recall the title, but the author is Jonathan King. He wrote and recorded a hit song in the sixties called “Everyone’s Gone to the Moon” and had a very successful career as a music producer and promoter and record company executive. 

You can Google his name and probably read about the charges, criminal court case and prison term he served. 

You should've brought up the Coreys.

[USU78]

2 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

No, I’m not ignoring your point. I’m asking for proof of it.

And as I’ve said, I’ll be happy to add my voice in support of those who’ve suffered trauma and abuse at the hands of others, whether the perpetrators are straight, bi, or gay.

Yes, there ARE support networks for straight spouses who’ve been abandoned by gay husbands and wives.

The Straight Spouse Support Network is chief among them. And their discussion forum: http://straightspouse.boardhost.com/index_mobile.php

The book “The Other Side of The Closet” is phenomenal, and one I read in full before coming out to my own wife: https://www.amazon.com/Other-Side-Closet-Coming-Out-Straight/dp/0471021520/ref=nodl_

How Straight Spouses Cope When Their Partners Come Out http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/10/09/straight_spouse_network_helps_partners_of_gay_people_cope_after_they_come.html

‘Collateral Damage’ in the LGBT Community: Straight Spouses, Still in the Darkest Corner of the Closet https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1900765

Thanks

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I have mentioned an autobiography I read. I don’t recall the title, but the author is Jonathan King. He wrote and recorded a hit song in the sixties called “Everyone’s Gone to the Moon” and had a very successful career as a music producer and promoter and record company executive. 

You can Google his name and probably read about the charges, criminal court case and prison term he served. 

If he was charged and went to jail, it would seem his victims had a chance to voice their suffering and they had champions to defend them.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

If he was charged and went to jail, it would seem his victims had a chance to voice their suffering and they had champions to defend them.

Not until many years later. 

[Daniel2]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I have mentioned an autobiography I read. I don’t recall the title, but the author is Jonathan King. He wrote and recorded a hit song in the sixties called “Everyone’s Gone to the Moon” and had a very successful career as a music producer and promoter and record company executive. 

You can Google his name and probably read about the charges, criminal court case and prison term he served. 

Predatory pedophilia is condemned by virtually every mainstream organization I know, and I am happy to add my voice to condemning pedophilic sexual behaviors, both straight and gay in nature, which are inherently predatory as underage minors are unable to consent even if they themselves state otherwise. 

Are there any posters here who have defended such pedohilic behaviors?

Are there any mainstream forums that defend such, let alone here at MD&D?

Edited February 1, 2018 by Daniel2

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Predatory pedophilia is condemned by virtually every mainstream organization I know, and I am happy to add my voice to condemning pedophilic sexual behaviors, both straight and gay in nature, which are inherently predatory as underage minors are unable to consent even if they themselves state otherwise. 

I don’t think King considered what he was doing pedophilia, because the victims were all past puberty and consented. As I recall they were generally over age 16. 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[smac97]

16 minutes ago, USU78 said:

You ignore my point: the inequity where only the politically popular with powerful sponsors and champions get worship services co-opted to air their grievances and pain. And nobody dares offer criticism of those whose careless or malicious abuse leaves scarred victims in their wake.

As to your question: Show me the support group for wives neglected and abandoned, children left with no footing in a world rendered unintelligible by selfish, narcissistic and now long gone but now sexually fulfilled homosexual daddies. When was the last fundraiser for the seduced teeniebopper now adult man with severe emotional and psychosexual scarring? Or his put upon wife and children compelled to endure the inevitable consequences of dad's scars?

Where's the compassion for those folks?

This Riverton event leaves me nothing but cold.

Okay, I am starting to understand your point.  But perhaps this thread is not the place for such a discussion.

The Riverton event was well-intended, though not well-thought-out.  There is still a need for the Latter-day Saints to interact with and communicate with LGBT folks in ways that lessen the rancor between these two generalized communities.  This thread is trying to sort out a way to do that.

I am not immune to your point.  I have loved ones who have been substantially injured by their father who "came out" and utterly abandoned his wife and children.  Much harm has been done, and such injuries deserve some attention.  But with respect . . . not in this thread.

Josh Weed just last week smeared the Latter-day Saints by giving undue emphasis to an LDS man who physically assaulted his gay son, saying "if this guy could avoid being a faggot, so could you!"

That sort of thing is appalling.  It shouldn't happen.  It is wrong, full stop.  Nevertheless, I was irritated that Mr. Weed injected such a risible, inflammatory anecdote into an already-tense environment, an anecdote that was apparently intended to broadly disparage the Latter-day Saints.

With genuine respect, I am concerned that your remarks here could be construed the same way (only broadly disparaging LGBT folks).

Time, place and manner.  I hope we can find ways to have important discussions.  It will require us, all of us, to tone down the rhetoric.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, USU78 said:

You should've brought up the Coreys.

There was the case of Joe Paterno’s assistant coach. Don’t recall his name. 

ETA: Oh yeah, Sandusky, I think. 

[Daniel2]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t think King considered what he was doing pedophilia, because the victims were all past puberty and consented. As I recall they were generally over age 16. 

Regardless of whether King considered it pedophilia, if it was with underage minors, and whether or not said minors said they were OK it with it, the law treats it as such—and that’s whats important.

If an adult man or woman had sex with either my underage daughter or son, I’d prosecute to the fullest extent, regardless of whether or not the pepetrator “considered” it pedophilia. I assume the same is true of most parents. 

[pogi]

9 minutes ago, USU78 said:

So ... Sauce only for geese? None for ganders?

We're required to be compassionate, but those among us who've been traumatized aren't entitled to your compassion?

I bring this up because of things I've sadly observed, those whose pain has no champion.

Would you be open to such an event? I could find the speakers.

The nurse in me is questioning your ability to triage a situation.

There are two patients - one is bleeding out and pale from a deep slit wrist, the other has been hit really hard in the gut - possibly broke a rib.  No other signs of injury.  They both need care.  Who are you going to treat first?

You are right, members are persecuted for their doctrines on gay marriage.  I see it too.  No one has said that people who are persecuted for their beliefs need no compassion.  But don't you think we should be focusing on the patient who is critically bleeding out?  

When the nurses rush out to take the child into emergent care and the man with the broke rib cries out, "what about me? This is not fair! Cant you see that I need treatment too! Take us both back!" The nurse, in that case, would rightly respond...get out of my way RIGHT NOW, I am trying to save this kid's life!

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t think King considered what he was doing pedophilia, because the victims were all past puberty and consented. As I recall they were generally over age 16. 

And what does that have to do with the Church?  Do you think the Church allow men like him to promote their lifestyle while not allowing victims like his to speak of their pain and get support.

That a man like him exists says nothing about what is talked about within the Church environment.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Okay, I am starting to understand your point.  But perhaps this thread is not the place for such a discussion.

The Riverton event was well-intended, though not well-thought-out.  There is still a need for the Latter-day Saints to interact with and communicate with LGBT folks in ways that lessen the rancor between these two generalized communities.  This thread is trying to sort out a way to do that.

I am not immune to your point.  I have loved ones who have been substantially injured by their father who "came out" and utterly abandoned his wife and children.  Much harm has been done, and such injuries deserve some attention.  But with respect . . . not in this thread.

Josh Weed just last week smeared the Latter-day Saints by giving undue emphasis to an LDS man who physically assaulted his gay son, saying "if this guy could avoid being a faggot, so could you!"

That sort of thing is appalling.  It shouldn't happen.  It is wrong, full stop.  Nevertheless, I was irritated that Mr. Weed injected such a risible, inflammatory anecdote into an already-tense environment, an anecdote that was apparently intended to broadly disparage the Latter-day Saints.

With genuine respect, I am concerned that your remarks here could be construed the same way (only broadly disparaging LGBT folks).

Time, place and manner.  I hope we can find ways to have important discussions.  It will require us, all of us, to tone down the rhetoric.

Thanks,

-Smac

Very well observed and stated, imo.  

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

And what does that have to do with the Church?  Do you think the Church allow men like him to promote their lifestyle while not allowing victims like him to speak of their pain and get support.

That a man like him exists says nothing about what is talked about within the Church environment.

My comments were in defense of USU78 who was getting berated for bringing it up, being subjected to CFR, etc. 

But in deference to Smac’s request, I won’t discuss it further. 

[ALarson]

43 minutes ago, USU78 said:

You ignore my point: the inequity where only the politically popular with powerful sponsors and champions get worship services co-opted to air their grievances and pain. And nobody dares offer criticism of those whose careless or malicious abuse leaves scarred victims in their wake.

As to your question: Show me the support group for wives neglected and abandoned, children left with no footing in a world rendered unintelligible by selfish, narcissistic and now long gone but now sexually fulfilled homosexual daddies. When was the last fundraiser for the seduced teeniebopper now adult man with severe emotional and psychosexual scarring? Or his put upon wife and children compelled to endure the inevitable consequences of dad's scars?

Where's the compassion for those folks?

If you're sincere about those causes and discussing them, maybe start another thread rather than derail this one?

If you have evidence this is affecting LDS youth or members (or others), I know many would genuinely like to hear about it and help.

Edited February 2, 2018 by ALarson

[Daniel2]

31 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I have mentioned an autobiography I read. I don’t recall the title, but the author is Jonathan King. He wrote and recorded a hit song in the sixties called “Everyone’s Gone to the Moon” and had a very successful career as a music producer and promoter and record company executive. 

You can Google his name and probably read about the charges, criminal court case and prison term he served. 

Just to clarify: this story doesn’t support USU’s contention that victims of abuse at the hands of homosexuals don’t have a voice, haven’t received compassion, and:or haven’t been morally or legally supported, either here on the board or elsewhere. 

[Raymond Ellis]

Loving and accepting Gays ? The world is increasing in iniquity and this topic is proof of that. I believe Gays will run amok soon and it is called in the Bible 'the great tribulation' Tyrants (people who have hate in their hearts ) will join them. The Bible says to love our enemies (and Gays are enemies of the truth) and to turn the other cheek. The tribulation will sort out who is truly meek and who will fight to save their lives and hence lose their eternal life with Jesus.

Many Christians and Mormons today try to worship power and worship the Holy Spirit both at the same time. Worshipping the spirit of power keeps us from being true children of God and thus keeps us from inheriting the Kingdom of God: 3Nephi 11:38. There were two examples in our ward of people who worship power: one was a member with a picture of Muhammad Ali on the wall and a jersey of a Rugby League team on the same shelf as a vial of consecrated oil; another example was of members being LOUD at a Christmas party card game. I am hoping to give a speech about it at our ward soon -- if they don't allow me to speak about it I will probably leave the church I'm thinking, though I have made some good friends there.

Both Gays and Tyrants worship spirits of intense desire (lust, a form of power worship). Lust is spoken against about 10 times in the New Testament. Try 1 Thess. 4: 1-8 and 1John 2:15-17 good examples, the first is a warning against lust in sex and the second is about the lust of the world which is passing away. 

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Yes, you nailed it on the head.  This is not about our critics, it is about saving the lives of our youth who are in jeopardy. 

Although I respect what you are saying, I haven't seen any evidence that doing this will save any lives.

It might or it might not. I don't think anyone really knows (unless you know of a study where people were seriously planning on ending their lives but decided not to after attending one of these meetings).

I think selling these meetings as something that will save lives might be misleading and, by taking away  focus on the proper mental health issues, might be counterproductive.

As far as what I have read (as well as experienced around me),  most suicides are caused by mental health and substance abuse issues.   

If you really want to save lives.  Training in recognizing mental health issues as well as substance abuse will give you the most bang for the buck.

 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Danzo

[ALarson]

49 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Are there any posters here who have defended such pedohilic behaviors?

Are there any mainstream forums that defend such, let alone here at MD&D?

Apparently there are "nasty jerks" here to mock, but I hope that hasn't taken place here.  I haven't seen anyone do that on this thread or elsewhere.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70142-utah-ward-invites-lgbt-speakers-for-2nd-and-3rd-hour/?do=findComment&comment=1209792596

Either way....IMO, it's a derail and a subject possibly for another thread.

Edited February 2, 2018 by ALarson

[ALarson]

16 minutes ago, Raymond Ellis said:

I believe Gays will run amok soon....

a·mok

adverb

 

1. behave uncontrollably

   "stone-throwing anarchists running amok"

   synonyms:

   go berserk, get out of control, rampage, riot, run riot, go on the rampage, behave like a maniac, behave wildly, behave uncontrollably, become violent

    

    

Edited February 2, 2018 by ALarson

[JulieM]

56 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

There was the case of Joe Paterno’s assistant coach. Don’t recall his name. 

ETA: Oh yeah, Sandusky, I think. 

What does this have to do with the topic of this meeting (from the OP)? Are we just now naming random cases of physical or sexual abuse or is this connected some how?  (Just trying to follow.)

[Rain]

On 2/1/2018 at 9:45 AM, Jeanne said:

Daniel2, I was not even asked by family to participate at all in funeral services for my Dad last December...but I ask..who took care of him?

Is there a chance you were not asked by family because you were his caretaker? I have rarely, if ever, seen the person closest to the deceased speak, out of compassion, because it might be too hard on that person.

 

----------------

 

This was my last stake, but not my last ward. I texted a friend in my ward, but she heard nothing about what happened. 

All she knows it that in the last stake conference they touched on love and acceptance of people who are LGBT. Since the SP has been in he has had to deal with that a lot - loving people. I won't go into all that. He is a good man. I don't know who from the SP attended this ward. 

Messaged another friend in the Parkway ward,  but she hasn't replied back yet. 

 

 

22 hours ago, Brian 2.0 said:

 

It might not be needed for you personally. You are obviously very savvy at navigating the internet and interacting with people on this topic online. A lot of members don't fall into that camp though. And using only one example, if LGBT Youth indeed are committing suicide, for whatever reason, at a higher rate than non-LGBT youth, then I would think planning a meeting in alignment with Ballard's counsel and strongly encouraging members to attend seems appropriate. 

That is a good possibility in this ward. Either this ward on one more ward had an awful lot of seniors in it. I'm just not sure the ward extended where I think it does or if that was another one.  My experience with the seniors in this area was a lack of tech understanding for many of them. 

21 hours ago, ALarson said:

But how many members are actually doing this?  Are you?  

I know that I could do better on this.  I personally know and love a few gay members of the church (and I work with a couple of men who are gay, but who are not members of the church and are wonderful individuals).

I read what this Bishop and his wife are doing....volunteering their time locally to actually get to know and learn from and listen to the gay members.  I think that is incredibly admirable.

I'll tell who else is really getting to know those who are gay and that's the youth.  I don't know of hardly any youth in my ward who don't have friends who are gay.  They love them and are listening to them.  More and more of them are in complete support of SSM too.

 

That's a good question. This stake had some great service going on. There were a number of charitable leaders in the stake and they pulled many volunteers from within to volunteer out of the stake. (It was one of the reasons I struggled here when I first came because it was so easy to get people to volunteer there). So the Augusteins easily could have had a number of people volunteering with them or its possible that many of the people were already involved with some other things that are closer to home. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Rain