Utah Ward Invites LGBT Speakers for 2nd and 3rd Hour

[cinepro]

This was posted over on reddit, and there appears to be enough corroborating "evidence" that I am inclined to believe it actually happened.  Obviously, if the video becomes available in the future that would be pretty good proof. If anyone here is in the Riverton area, please let us know if you heard anything. The poster clarified that this took place in the cultural hall, if that makes any difference:

 

Quote

We attended a Riverton ward today (don't remember the name.) They combined the SS and RS/PH, so the meeting was 1:45 long. I took a rough count. About 250 - 300 people. There were two cameras recording the meeting. The bishop started out by saying they were going to talk about loving and accepting LGBTQ people. A member of the SP gave the opening prayer.

First speaker: A gay man who had married a woman and has a child. They are now divorced. He tried to make it work, but he is gay. Did everything he could, but he is gay. Loves the church and its teachings, (but he is gay and that is never going to change.) In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen (ItNoJC,A)

Second speaker: A gay man. Teaches at BYU. Did everything he cold to not be gay. Dated women for 10 years, attended temple weekly, read scriptures, prayed, wrote in journal, but he is gay. He is the happy gay mormon (for now) who is content to remain single (for now) and help gay people accept themselves and help family members and friends accept them. (ItNoJC,A).

Next speaker, the mother of a gay teen who took his life. His struggles and the unkind ways he was treated. (ItNoJC,A).

Next speaker, the husband of the above woman. Same basic thing. Very raw and gut wrenching. (ItNoJC,A).

Next speaker, a gay woman married to a woman. Her wife was also there and she made 3 or 4 references to her wife. Talked about her amazing mother who rejects her wife and their marriage. Read several letters to her mother (some of them not sent) seeking to re-establish their previously close relationship. (ItNoJC,A).

Musical number by two gay men.

Next speaker: A lesbian woman married to a woman. Told of her upbringing and her struggles with prescription drugs and her self loathing because -- she is gay. Now clean, happily married to a woman and has a child. (ItNoJC,A).

Next speaker: The mother of the above woman. She was TBM but has come to love and understand and accept her child. Talked about her faith journey. She is still in the church. (ItNoJC,A).

Last speaker: Bishop. We are out of time, but he gives some scripture references about loving and accepting. The meeting ends 4 minutes overtime.

Just wanted to get this on the record. This will happen more and more in the future in more places. Bottom up revelation is what is going to change the church. Of course many people will not change, but some will. Since I knew more than 90% of the LGBTQ people and their allies, I payed attention to who I thought were the regular ward members. Many of them thanked the speakers and offered encouragement or positive comments.

I talked to one of the videographers. When the video is available, I will post a link to where you can view it.

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by cinepro

[clarkgoble]

There was a prominent fireside last night in Provo in our stake apparently coordinated by the brethren on the issue. It was clearly designed for people who are gay to feel accepted. 

While I think the Church's hands are rather doctrinally tied, I do think they are earnestly trying to do the best they can within the constraints the Lord has given them.

Edited January 29, 2018 by clarkgoble

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, cinepro said:

This was posted over on reddit, and there appears to be enough corroborating "evidence" that I am inclined to believe it actually happened.  Obviously, if the video becomes available in the future that would be pretty good proof. If anyone here is in the Riverton area, please let us know if you heard anything. The poster clarified that this took place in the cultural hall, if that makes any difference:

 

 

Assuming this report is accurate, it sounds like it was largely propaganda for the position that gay marriage ought to be accepted and normalized within the Church.

I think I would have gone home after sacrament meeting.

[ALarson]

16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Assuming this report is accurate, it sounds like it was largely propaganda for the position that gay marriage ought to be accepted and normalized within the Church.

I think I would have gone home after sacrament meeting.

Wow.  You wouldn't have even stayed and given yourself the chance to hear their very personal experiences?  Even if you disagreed with some of what they may state, you would have simply just "gone home" and not even tried to listen?

And, like it or not.....gay marriage is becoming more "accepted" by members of the church (and by the general public).    This is especially true regarding the youth's acceptance as many of them have friends or family members who are gay.

Edited January 29, 2018 by ALarson

[ALarson]

18 minutes ago, cinepro said:

This was posted over on reddit, and there appears to be enough corroborating "evidence" that I am inclined to believe it actually happened.  Obviously, if the video becomes available in the future that would be pretty good proof. If anyone here is in the Riverton area, please let us know if you heard anything. The poster clarified that this took place in the cultural hall, if that makes any difference:

Thanks cinepro for posting this.  Tacenda posted it on the other thread, but I think this deserves its own space.  I am so encouraged this took place!

I hope the video gets posted.  I'd love to see it and listen to the words of those who spoke.

I think every ward could possibly have such a meeting.  I have learned that very few people are not touched in some way by having a family member or a friend or associate who is gay.  Having these family members and friends actually speak to members....(making it real and personal and putting a face to this issue)....could be so beneficial in so many ways.  I believe that anything we can do to open up communication and listen is wonderful and a huge step in right direction.

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Wow.  You wouldn't have even stayed and given them a chance to share their very personal experiences?  Even if you disagreed with some of what they may state, you would have simply "gone home"?

Including speakers on the program who were  in a gay or lesbian "marriage" and thus were unabashedly engaged in apostasy and violating the law of chastity would have been the deal killer for me.

 

[hope_for_things]

20 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

There was a prominent fireside last night in Provo in our stake apparently coordinated by the brethren on the issue. It was clearly designed for people who are gay to feel accepted. 

While I think the Church's hands are rather doctrinally tied, I do think they are earnestly trying to do the best they can within the constraints the Lord has given them.

One great thing about Mormonism is just how amazingly flexible it has been with respect to changing past doctrines.  Not to discount how difficult those changes were for those in the thick of things, Mormonism has been quite resilient over time.   Thankfully the Lord is patient enough to wait for people to come around.  

Edited January 29, 2018 by hope_for_things

[ALarson]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Including speakers on the program who were  in a gay or lesbian "marriage" and thus were unabashedly engaged in apostasy and violating the law of chastity would have been the deal killer for me.

 

Are you saying they don't have a voice or a personal perspective to share? 

I'm not sure how you envision them, but they are not evil.  I think it's great they would be willing to actually come and open up and speak about their experience.

Edited January 29, 2018 by ALarson

[USU78]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Including speakers on the program who were  in a gay or lesbian "marriage" and thus were unabashedly engaged in apostasy and violating the law of chastity would have been the deal killer for me.

 

Moi aussi

[Gray]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Including speakers on the program who were  in a gay or lesbian "marriage" and thus were unabashedly engaged in apostasy and violating the law of chastity would have been the deal killer for me.

 

I understand what you mean. Last week someone spoke who had been divorced and then remarried. I got up and left rather than listen to the words of an unrepentant adulterer. (Mark 10:11–12)

The week before a man who I know to have once taken the Lord's name in vain was speaking on pride. I got right up and went straight home.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Gray

[ALarson]

34 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

There was a prominent fireside last night in Provo in our stake apparently coordinated by the brethren on the issue. It was clearly designed for people who are gay to feel accepted. 

While I think the Church's hands are rather doctrinally tied, I do think they are earnestly trying to do the best they can within the constraints the Lord has given them.

I think this is great.  Any feedback on what was said at the fireside?

 

[Scott Lloyd]

31 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Are you saying they don't have a voice or a personal perspective to share? 

 

Not one that I as an individual would feel obligated to sit and listen to as part of an audience held captive as it were in an ecclesiastical setting.

I reserve the right to exercise personal discretion when I think local leadership has gone off the rails. On one occasion, someone on this board told of a ward in which a fourth-Sunday, third-hour meeting was devoted to haranguing ward members into donating to Friends of Scouting. I would have skipped that one as well.

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Marginal Gains]

23 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Including speakers on the program who were  in a gay or lesbian "marriage" and thus were unabashedly engaged in apostasy and violating the law of chastity would have been the deal killer for me.

 

If one of the speakers was openly in apostasy because they smoked or drank alcohol, would you likewise have left? 

Edited January 29, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[Scott Lloyd]

38 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

There was a prominent fireside last night in Provo in our stake apparently coordinated by the brethren on the issue. It was clearly designed for people who are gay to feel accepted. 

While I think the Church's hands are rather doctrinally tied, I do think they are earnestly trying to do the best they can within the constraints the Lord has given them.

When you said it was "apparently coordinated by the (B)rethren," I got the impression it was under the auspices of Church headquarters. Yet the Facebook post said it was sponsored by a single stake.

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Not one that I as an individual would feel obligated to sit and listen to as part of an audience held captive as it were in an ecclesiastical setting.

"Held captive"? 

What are you afraid of, Scott?  

If we limit allowing only those without sin to speak, our meetings will be silent.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

If one of the speakers was openly in apostasy because they smoked or drank alcohol, would you likewise have left?

If it appeared he was going to preach to me about how there is nothing wrong with a Church member smoking or drinking alcohol, yes I would.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

"Held captive"? 

What are you afraid of, Scott?  

If we limit allowing only those without sin to speak, our meetings will be silent.

 

I think we already do limit our meetings to those who speak against -- not in favor of -- sin. Or we should, at least.

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said:

If one of the speakers was openly in apostasy because they smoked or drank alcohol, would you likewise have left?

I can't speak for Scott, but I think the issue is how their sin is being presented.  

If someone who smokes and drinks gets up and talks about how they are trying to repent and overcome their addictions, it would be different than having them get up and talk about how much they enjoy smoking and drinking and then performing a musical number.

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by cinepro

[Marginal Gains]

Interesting that this was supported at a Stake Level. That’s an escalation. Good for the local leaders reaching out like this. I applaud them. The FP who declined to respond to the letter from the parent of a youth suicide victim could learn a thing or two from these local leaders. Unfortunately those local leaders will likely get a slapped wrist or worse.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

Interesting that this was supported at a Stake Level. That’s an escalation. Good for the local leaders reaching out like this. I applaud them. The FP who declined to respond to the letter from the parent of a youth suicide victim could learn a thing or two from these local leaders. Unfortunately they’ll likely get censored.

Maybe it was supported at a stake level, but I didn't get that from the OP. Only that a member of the stake presidency gave the opening prayer.

[Marginal Gains]

4 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I can't speak for Scott, but I think the issue is how their sin is being presented.  

If someone who smokes and drinks gets up and talks about how they are trying to repent and overcome their addictions, it would be different then having them get up and talk about how much they enjoy smoking and drinking and then performing a musical number.

 

Oh I agree that the service is very much against what the General Authorities would approve of. But that doesn’t make it wrong. At least in my eyes.

[Marginal Gains]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Maybe it was supported at a stake level, but I didn't get that from the OP. Only that a member of the stake presidency gave the opening prayer.

Giving the opening prayer seems supportive to me....

[ALarson]

16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If it appeared he was going to preach to me about how there is nothing wrong with a Church member smoking or drinking alcohol, yes I would.

How do you know that any of those who participated, spoke out against church teaching or stated that there "is nothing wrong" with same-sex relationships?  I have to believe they were respectful of the church's beliefs and teachings.  But I would have not judged them in advance and would have respected them enough to listen (even if I disagreed with some of what they said).

I just think it's sad that you'd just leave when this is really a very important issue for the church today.

Of course, that is your prerogative and I do respect your right to not listen as well.

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by ALarson

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think we already do limit our meetings to those who speak against -- not in favor of -- sin. Or we should, at least.

Once again, you do not know that those who participated spoke "in favor of -- sin".  

You are judging them without knowing that this took place.

[Scott Lloyd]

18 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I think this is great.  Any feedback on what was said at the fireside?

 

Tom Christofferson has published a book. I imagine much of what was said could be found in the book.