Acts 17:28 Question

[mfbukowski]

21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

And yet Elder Hunter was right.
 

Oh yeah. My point was the source 

[Josh Khinder]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

"While The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that the transgression of Adam and Eve brought death into the world and made all mortals subject to temptation, suffering, and weakness, it denies that any culpability is automatically transmitted to Adam and Eve's offspring. All mortals commit sin, but they will be punished "for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression" (A of F 2)."

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Original_Sin

Hence Moroni 8:

 

Apostle John Widtsoe said, "In the true gospel of Jesus Christ there is no original sin" (E. & R., p. 195).

Apostle Bruce McConkie also said, "It is possible to transgress a law without committing a sin as in the case of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden...it is proper and according the scriptural pattern to speak of the transgression of Adam, but not the sin of Adam" (M.D., p. 804).

 

[Josh Khinder]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

 

And yet Elder Hunter was right.
 

Of course he's right

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."¹

Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945

 

[pogi]

5 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Apostle John Widtsoe said, "In the true gospel of Jesus Christ there is no original sin" (E. & R., p. 195).

Apostle Bruce McConkie also said, "It is possible to transgress a law without committing a sin as in the case of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden...it is proper and according the scriptural pattern to speak of the transgression of Adam, but not the sin of Adam" (M.D., p. 804).

And???

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Josh Khinder said:

Of course he's right

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."¹

Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945

 

No, he's right because his doctrine is correct.
I personally believe that this particular quote is incorrect.
Because like all members of the Church I have both agency and the ability to study the gospel for myself.  And I don't agree with every teaching from our leaders.

But Elder Hunter's teaching on Christ is correct.
 

[RockHopper]

God just put this on my heart.

Galatians 2:20-21  I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Galatians 3:5-6 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

Galatians 6:14-16 But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

We are not saved by the perfection of our knowledge, we are saved by Christ.  God's grace is what brings us into His Kingdom, not how thorough our knowledge is.  Think about this, many followers of Christ start with a child like understanding of the gospel and an excitement about Jesus.  But later on they become "knowledgeable" and take the position, "You're not really a Christian until you know what I know." Remember love builds up, but knowledge puffs up.  Which is more important:  to preach the gospel or to preach our doctrine on top of it?  This applies to Baptists, Reformed, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, etc., even my sect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_churches_and_churches_of_Christ

We start to burden other believers with extra teachings or practices.  It's just a sad state of affairs that Christians have gotten into.  I'm not saying there isn't an answer to the more mature things of God, but the gospel is simple.  

Joseph Smith: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/03/who-is-jesus-christ?lang=eng  The Prophet Joseph Smith was often asked, “What are the fundamental principles of your religion?”  “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:35-39 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.

Romans 10:8-10  But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

1 Peter 3:20-22  In it [Noah's ark] only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Romans 8:9-11  You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.  If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Galatians 4:6  And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

Believe in Jesus, profess, repent, be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit.  It's a simple message.  We can add all kinds of things on to this, and then we start trying to convert people to our church or our "perfect" doctrine, rather than to Christ.  I'm not saying we shouldn't try to understand the deeper things of God.  And certainly, if someone is interested, we should teach what we believe to be true!  But I can tell you right now, there is no one on earth, let alone on this forum, whose knowledge is perfect.

 

Edited January 12, 2018 by RockHopper

[pogi]

2 hours ago, RockHopper said:

God just put this on my heart.

Galatians 2:20-21  I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Galatians 3:5-6 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

Galatians 6:14-16 But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

We are not saved by the perfection of our knowledge, we are saved by Christ.  God's grace is what brings us into His Kingdom, not how thorough our knowledge is.  Think about this, many followers of Christ start with a child like understanding of the gospel and an excitement about Jesus.  But later on they become "knowledgeable" and take the position, "You're not really a Christian until you know what I know." Remember love builds up, but knowledge puffs up.  Which is more important:  to preach the gospel or to preach our doctrine on top of it?  This applies to Baptists, Reformed, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, etc., even my sect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_churches_and_churches_of_Christ

We start to burden other believers with extra teachings or practices.  It's just a sad state of affairs that Christians have gotten into.  I'm not saying there isn't an answer to the more mature things of God, but the gospel is simple.  

Joseph Smith: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/03/who-is-jesus-christ?lang=eng  The Prophet Joseph Smith was often asked, “What are the fundamental principles of your religion?”  “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:35-39 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.

Romans 10:8-10  But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

1 Peter 3:20-22  In it [Noah's ark] only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Romans 8:9-11  You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.  If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Galatians 4:6  And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

Believe in Jesus, profess, repent, be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit.  It's a simple message.  We can add all kinds of things on to this, and then we start trying to convert people to our church or our "perfect" doctrine, rather than to Christ.  I'm not saying we shouldn't try to understand the deeper things of God.  And certainly, if someone is interested, we should teach what we believe to be true!  But I can tell you right now, there is no one on earth, let alone on this forum, whose knowledge is perfect.

 

Hi RockHopper,

I just want to say that I appreciate your friendly and "Christian" approach to the gospel based in love rather than judgment.  I agree with you about the state of Christianity.  However, even in the "simple" doctrines of salvation, there is great disagreement within the varying sects.  For example, you mention "baptism" as an essential doctrine of salvation.  I agree with you there, but other's of your fellow Protestants would consider that an unnecessary work in an attempt to "earn" our salvation.  Those who do believe in the requirement of baptism might disagree on the mode of baptism (sprinkling or immersion), age (infant or age of accountability), and authority.  So, even in the very core basics, there is still much disagreement.  What is your personal understanding of the role of works, and the relationship between works and grace in salvation?  I ask this because the Biblical passages you share are often used to discredit the idea of works, yet you include baptism as essential.  Thanks!  

[Calm]

Josh, you have not said what evidence, if any, you would accept as a correction of your claims.  You have just stated you wouldn't accept lds.org since they lie or hide stuff, can't remember which.

Is it true then that nothing anyone could say or point to will change your mind?  I think it is extremely important for you to be clear on this.

[RockHopper]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Hi RockHopper,

I just want to say that I appreciate your friendly and "Christian" approach to the gospel based in love rather than judgment.  I agree with you about the state of Christianity.  However, even in the "simple" doctrines of salvation, there is great disagreement within the varying sects.  For example, you mention "baptism" as an essential doctrine of salvation.  I agree with you there, but other's of your fellow Protestants would consider that an unnecessary work in an attempt to "earn" our salvation.  Those who do believe in the requirement of baptism might disagree on the mode of baptism (sprinkling or immersion), age (infant or age of accountability), and authority.  So, even in the very core basics, there is still much disagreement.  What is your personal understanding of the role of works, and the relationship between works and grace in salvation?  I ask this because the Biblical passages you share are often used to discredit the idea of works, yet you include baptism as essential.  Thanks!  

Hey pogi,

Yes, there is much disagreement and I'm not as "flexible" as I may seem... but, I am friendly

The concept of believer's baptism (let alone priesthood authority) is a stake that kills the whole idea of accepting all Christian sects as brothers and sisters.  I have no desire to get bogged down in another of the endless debates over baptism, so I'm going to let the Scriptures speak for themselves.  There hasn't been any universal agreement for almost 2000 years and I doubt we'll resolve it here.  Let's just say that I align much more with the sects that stem from the early https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorationism movements, like the Waldensians and Anabaptists, and then with those coming out of the First Great Awakening.  Funny, Mormonism is also considered part of this group, but I digress.

As for my personal view on works, I'll start with baptism.  I don't view it as a work any more than I view speaking the words, "Jesus is Lord", as a work.  It's a pledge of a good conscious, we're not earning anything.  It's similar to getting married, I'm not working to earn my wife's love, rather we're both receiving/pledging the gift of our love to one another.  To me, calling it a work is just an excuse to not get baptized.  I think that's all I have to say on baptism.

As for works in general, I view them as a result of our faith, a result of the grace and mercy we've received.  We don't serve God to be saved or earn righteousness, Jesus is our righteousness.  We serve God because we are saved.  As we learn how much God loves us, we learn to love others.  Not that it's always easy to do what God wants us to do, we are still struggling against the flesh and evil.

1 John 4:19-21 We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 Thessalonians 1:3  We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

James 2:14-20 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?  If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.   But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Matthew 16:24-27 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

Hebrews 10:24-25 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

Phillipians 2:12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

I could keep going on, but I think it's clear that we don't just accept the gospel and go on our merry way, sinning, doing whatever we want, living selfish lives, etc..  Those who live like this, sort of reveal themselves:

Matthew 15:8-9 “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’”

Matthew 7:21-27 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’  “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

 

Edited January 13, 2018 by RockHopper

[Anakin7]

10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Interesting interpretation. Do you have any scriptural evidence for it?

Here, I do note that there is scriptural evidence for eternal meaning scope rather than time. In other words being sentenced to eternal torment in Hell, doesn't mean one can never escape. It means while there, one will experience eternal torment - torment which has no bounds. The evidence for that is in D&C. Somewhat lesser evidence is in Revelation which says death and hell shall give up their dead to be judged in the final judgment - inferring some may repent at that time, and be forgiven - thus, escaping hell. Kinda like the Catholic idea of purgatory except not everyone goes there.

Anything like this for your idea of before and after?

Some time ago - [Years] I had read somewhere that the phraseology Before and after had to do with position instead of Time in the Isaiah passage. I think it was at a local Methodist SeminaryI was doing research.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son of Thunder, Kryptonian Warrior

[Stargazer]

On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 8:44 PM, MiserereNobis said:

I didn't realize this place was satirical. Did I accidentally end up on theonion.com...?

You better watch out, Josh is probably one of those "Christians" who is out to get the Catholics, too

And the little dog is bound to figure in there somewhere, as well.

[Stargazer]

On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 8:46 PM, Josh Khinder said:

So that means Jesus earned his salvation , didn't he ?

If you believe that Jesus was just an extension of the Father, as per my understanding, at least, of the Nicene Creed (and lets have a schism over the "Filioque" while were at it), then clearly Jesus was in no need of salvation, not being a separate personality from the Father. 

If you believe, as we do, that Jesus was in the beginning with Father and coeternal with Him, but a separate personality who was and is 100% in alignment with Father, and is God himself by virtue of that alignment, then he didn't need salvation then, either.  In his mortality Jesus remained sinless, but nevertheless suffered the pain of the Atonement (suffering which is reserved for all those who reject Christ's Atonement and do not repent), and he did this in order to become the Savior -- the Atonement being the enabling act making it possible for him to draw all repentant sinners to him.  This is why Isaiah wrote "with his stripes we are healed."  He himself did not earn or for that matter even need salvation, because salvation is the thing that the sinner needs to be forgiven and not suffer because of his or her sins. Beings without sin do not need salvation. Obviously.

You clearly believe that Adam's transgression somehow dirties all his descendants with sin. I disagree.  What we inherit from Adam are two things: (1) mortality, or natural death; and (2) the inclination to sin.  A newborn baby inherits both of these, but neither a capability of natural death nor having an inclination to sin are sins, in themselves.  And unless in the act of taking a breath a newborn baby is committing a sin (a hellish idea if there ever was one), a newborn is as sinless as Jesus Christ and thus in no need of salvation.  If the newborn lives long enough to commit a sin, then it does need salvation, but not before.

 

[Josh Khinder]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

If you believe that Jesus was just an extension of the Father, as per my understanding, at least, of the Nicene Creed (and lets have a schism over the "Filioque" while were at it), then clearly Jesus was in no need of salvation, not being a separate personality from the Father. 

If you believe, as we do, that Jesus was in the beginning with Father and coeternal with Him, but a separate personality who was and is 100% in alignment with Father, and is God himself by virtue of that alignment, then he didn't need salvation then, either.  In his mortality Jesus remained sinless, but nevertheless suffered the pain of the Atonement (suffering which is reserved for all those who reject Christ's Atonement and do not repent), and he did this in order to become the Savior -- the Atonement being the enabling act making it possible for him to draw all repentant sinners to him.  This is why Isaiah wrote "with his stripes we are healed."  He himself did not earn or for that matter even need salvation, because salvation is the thing that the sinner needs to be forgiven and not suffer because of his or her sins. Beings without sin do not need salvation. Obviously.

You clearly believe that Adam's transgression somehow dirties all his descendants with sin. I disagree.  What we inherit from Adam are two things: (1) mortality, or natural death; and (2) the inclination to sin.  A newborn baby inherits both of these, but neither a capability of natural death nor having an inclination to sin are sins, in themselves.  And unless in the act of taking a breath a newborn baby is committing a sin (a hellish idea if there ever was one), a newborn is as sinless as Jesus Christ and thus in no need of salvation.  If the newborn lives long enough to commit a sin, then it does need salvation, but not before.

 

You have a wrong understanding of the Nicene Creed that expresses the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate and distinct persons,  I'm not a Lutheran but this Lutheran Catechism Manual points this out quite plainly .

I realize Mormons teach no original sin but the Book of Mormon disagrees

 Apostle John Widtsoe said, "In the true gospel of Jesus Christ there is no original sin" (E. & R., p. 195).

Mosiah 16:

3 For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil.

4 Thus all mankind were lost; and behold, they would have been endlessly lost were it not that God redeemed his people from their lost and fallen state.

 Mosiah 3

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

 2 Nephi 2:

21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

 

Edited January 13, 2018 by Josh Khinder

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

You have a wrong understanding of the Nicene Creed that expresses the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate and distinct persons,  I'm not a Lutheran but this Lutheran Catechism Manual points this out quite plainly .

Ok.
God consists of three persons (people) - The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost.
They are separate and distinguishable.
They are physically separate.
They are united as God.

Mormons agree with all of this.

"To call upon God is to call upon them all as a single Deity.  When you pray to one you are praying to all three".
That is wrong, and not scriptural, and Deut 6:4 has provides no evidence otherwise.
 

[Josh Khinder]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Ok.
God consists of three persons (people) - The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost.
They are separate and distinguishable.
They are physically separate.
They are united as God.

Mormons agree with all of this.

"To call upon God is to call upon them all as a single Deity.  When you pray to one you are praying to all three".
That is wrong, and not scriptural, and Deut 6:4 has provides no evidence otherwise.
 

Duet 6:4 which Jesus said was the greatest command Mark 12:28-29 teaches God is one and not three like Joseph Smith taught

Joseph Smith said the Trinity is three gods.
"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)

 

The Godhead consists of the three distinct personages and three gods.. The Father Son and Holy Spirit. The Father and Son have bodies of flesh and bones, while the Holy Spirit is a personage of spirit. Robert Millet A Different Jesus page 198

 

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

 

Bruce McConkie states: "There are three Gods...separate in personality, united in purpose, in plan, and in all attributes of perfection" (Mormon Doctrine, p.270).

[JLHPROF]

14 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Duet 6:4 which Jesus said was the greatest command Mark 12:28-29 teaches God is one and not three like Joseph Smith taught

Joseph Smith said the Trinity is three gods.
"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)

 

The Godhead consists of the three distinct personages and three gods.. The Father Son and Holy Spirit. The Father and Son have bodies of flesh and bones, while the Holy Spirit is a personage of spirit. Robert Millet A Different Jesus page 198

 

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

 

Bruce McConkie states: "There are three Gods...separate in personality, united in purpose, in plan, and in all attributes of perfection" (Mormon Doctrine, p.270).

And they're right.

It's hilarious how evangelicals can't figure out how 3 members of a committee known as God can be three separate Gods and still one God.
So they have to invent some non-scriptural way of combining them.

[Josh Khinder]

31 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And they're right.

It's hilarious how evangelicals can't figure out how 3 members of a committee known as God can be three separate Gods and still one God.
So they have to invent some non-scriptural way of combining them.

So they have better insight than Jesus or the Book of Mormon

2 Nephi 31:

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God,   without end. Amen.

 Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God,  to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

 

Mormon 7:

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God,  in a state of happiness which hath no end.

 

The Testimony of Three Witnesses

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God.  Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris

 

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 98-99 under Counsel given by President Charles W. Penrose

Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead, and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." well what is the fulnesspel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, section 76, in the Doctrine and Covanants, and you find there defined what the gospel is, There God the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three persons in the Trinity-the one God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principals, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason:

General Conference Report, April 1922, pp 27-28.

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

So they have better insight than Jesus or the Book of Mormon

2 Nephi 31:

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God,   without end. Amen.

 Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God,  to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

 

Mormon 7:

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God,  in a state of happiness which hath no end.

 

The Testimony of Three Witnesses

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God.  Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris

 

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 98-99 under Counsel given by President Charles W. Penrose

Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead, and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." well what is the fulnesspel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, section 76, in the Doctrine and Covanants, and you find there defined what the gospel is, There God the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three persons in the Trinity-the one God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principals, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason:

General Conference Report, April 1922, pp 27-28.

All true.  They are all members of the one God, the organization known as the Godhead.
Again, no reason to invent some weird ethereal explanation for how they are one.
It's no different than my Bishop and his counselors all being part of the Bishopric.  They are all one Bishopric.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

You have a wrong understanding of the Nicene Creed that expresses the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate and distinct persons,  I'm not a Lutheran but this Lutheran Catechism Manual points this out quite plainly .

Nicene Creed

Quote

 

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

  

 

Please explain these words and how that makes them "separate persons"

Quote

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;

Good luck.

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Nicene Creed

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

I'd also be curious to know which scriptures in the Bible supposedly indicate the part I marked in red.

• born of the Father before all ages.  Does that mean Christ is not eternal and had a starting point before time when he was born/created?
• God from God, Light from Light, This makes sense, Christ is a member of the Godhead and came from his Father
• true God from true God,  Again, makes sense.  He came from his father (as we all do) and is a member of the Godhead
• begotten, not made  Again, same as the rest of us.  We are all begotten by our fathers (and mothers), not made.  His Father just happened to be God.
• consubstantial with the Father; Never seen this word in the Bible nor any verse to explain it.    Consubstantial, Homoousion, whatever you want to call it, I've never seen anything like it in scripture.  I've seen scriptures that state they one God, but nothing that indicates this refers to their makeup.

Honestly, that whole passage seems to contradict itself and use made up terms.

 

 

[Josh Khinder]

41 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Nicene Creed

Please explain these words and how that makes them "separate persons"

Good luck.

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God,

That clearly says ONE GOD yet it teaches The Father is God, Jesus is God and The Holy Spirit are God, Three separate and distinct persons yet ONE GOD 1 X1X1= 1 

No different than pre-1836 Joseph Smith 

http://truthseeker.tripod.com/LDSQUESTION12.html

Edited January 13, 2018 by Josh Khinder

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God,

That clearly says ONE GOD yet it teaches The Father is God, Jesus is God and The Holy Spirit are God, Three separate and distinct persons yet ONE GOD 1 X1X1= 1 

No different than pre-1836 Joseph Smith 

http://truthseeker.tripod.com/LDSQUESTION12.html

You really don't get it do you.
They are one God.  One God with three members.  Three separate and distinct persons.
It is the false idea that to be one God they have to share some non-scriptural "substance" that you get wrong.
Joseph was right.  The Nicene Creed was not.

[Anakin7]

20 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You really don't get it do you.
They are one God.  One God with three members.  Three separate and distinct persons.
It is the false idea that to be one God they have to share some non-scriptural "substance" that you get wrong.
Joseph was right.  The Nicene Creed was not.

We'll JLHPRO they are one "Substance" if you interpret "Substance" with True God DNA. They all have the same True God DNA in what makes them One God in Authority, Power, Knowledge, Covenant. Understanding there is a hierarchy within The True Ancient, Monarch Eastern, Economic, Socia,l Godhead, Trinity.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel Son Of Thunder Kryptonian Warrior    

[Josh Khinder]

34 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You really don't get it do you.
They are one God.  One God with three members.  Three separate and distinct persons.
It is the false idea that to be one God they have to share some non-scriptural "substance" that you get wrong.
Joseph was right.  The Nicene Creed was not.

There were two major Latin words involved. The first is substantia, and Greek  Homoousios   Although the word was idiomatically to mean “goods” or “property” and in a legal sense to denote “ that  to which two or more parties could share legal claim,” there never was never much doubt as to what the Church Fathers intended when using substantia was simply the being of God. Thus to say , with the Latin orthodox theologians, that Father,Son, and Spirit were consubstantialis was to say that they shared the same basic “thing” or “what” that they were: namely, they were God.

 Homoousios Godhead, God, substance Essence and Being all synonyms

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

There were two major Latin words involved. The first is substantia, and Greek  Homoousios   

Neither of which is in the Bible.  Therefore applying them to God is an invention of man.

Quote

there never was never much doubt as to what the Church Fathers intended when using substantia was simply the being of God. Thus to say , with the Latin orthodox theologians, that Father,Son, and Spirit were consubstantialis was to say that they shared the same basic “thing” or “what” that they were: namely, they were God.

Nobody is doubting what the Church fathers meant.  Just that it's not Biblical.

Quote

 Homoousios Godhead, God, substance Essence and Being all synonyms

Not even close.