Robert F. Smith Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 17 hours ago, RockHopper said: ....................................... Acts 17:28 it says: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. What does this mean to most Mormons? We Mormons believe that God the Father is our literal spirit father, that we are his spirit offspring, but that we are also his literal physical offspring or descendants through the long chain of birth from the days of Adam. For we are made in his image and likeness. All humans are gods in embryo and may again be with the Father in the Celestial Kingdom someday as gods in fact. 17 hours ago, RockHopper said: Do they believe that the Father is all around us, that our very existence is tightly coupled with His presence? My view is that the Father is omnipresent and can see/hear everything. He knows our thoughts, He hears our prayers, He knows our motives and our deeds. And through the Father, His Son is also present in the same way. ........................ Through the power of the Holy Spirit, God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ (two separate beings) are omnipresent. They and the Heavenly Host do everything possible to help us return to their presence.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 4 hours ago, Josh Khinder said: This picture distinguishes the Mormon Jesus versus Mormon Christ False. In Mormon religion, Jesus Christ is eternal. LIke all other offspring of God the Father, Jesus had a coeternal spark of being called "intelligence," which was then embodied as a spirit, and then embodied as Son of Mary in a physical body. After fulfilling all righteousness (a requirement), He was finally glorified at the time of his Resurrection, and He sits on the right hand of the Father, coequal with the Father in every respect. Of course, by deliberately lying about what Mormons believe, one can stack the deck. That's what some evangelicals do. Fortunately, Pres Richard Mouw doesn't do that sort of thing, and states unequivocally that "I am now convinced that we evangelicals have often seriously misrepresented the beliefs and practices of the Mormon community. Indeed, let me state it bluntly to the LDS folks here this evening, we have sinned against you." You need to repent, Josh. 2
Josh Khinder Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: False. In Mormon religion, Jesus Christ is eternal. LIke all other offspring of God the Father, Jesus had a coeternal spark of being called "intelligence," which was then embodied as a spirit, and then embodied as Son of Mary in a physical body. After fulfilling all righteousness (a requirement), He was finally glorified at the time of his Resurrection, and He sits on the right hand of the Father, coequal with the Father in every respect. Of course, by deliberately lying about what Mormons believe, one can stack the deck. That's what some evangelicals do. Fortunately, Pres Richard Mouw doesn't do that sort of thing, and states unequivocally that "I am now convinced that we evangelicals have often seriously misrepresented the beliefs and practices of the Mormon community. Indeed, let me state it bluntly to the LDS folks here this evening, we have sinned against you." You need to repent, Josh. Isn't actually Richard Mouw a Mormon sympathizer who debates Robert Millet ? Yes in the Mormon faith Jesus is eternal like all humans, animals and plants . Edited January 10, 2018 by Josh Khinder
RockHopper Posted January 10, 2018 Author Posted January 10, 2018 27 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: I’m in general accord with your list, but I still believe the Evangelical perception that the Mormons are going to end up suffering the unimaginable horrors of hell forever, an attitude that approaches outright demonization, is the main EMOTIONAL driver that perpetuates the Evangelical I’ll-will toward the Latter-Day Saints. After all, if the God of perfect love, mercy and justice appears to be so callous and emotionally indifferent toward the unending eternal agonies the Latter-Day Saints will have to endure, why should mere mortal Evangelicals be expected to be any mor,e positively disposed toward the Latter-Day Saints? Meanwhile, because the Latter-Day Saints believe the Evangelicals will be saved through Christ, and inherit a place in one of the Father’s many mansions of eternal glory, the far less intensely negative feelings they might feel toward the Evangelicals is an understandable wariness that grows out of being virtually demonized and presumptively condemned to hell by an entire religion.Two different worlds; two radically different points of view. It's a fair premise. I do think that most Evangelicals believe in "eternal torment". So, I agree that this view leads them to be more antagonistic towards false teachings, which would include LDS teachings. They believe that Mormons are leading people to hell. So when they talk about Mormons, as a group, it's going to be very negative, if not hostile. But when it comes to Mormon's as individuals, it's been my experience with devout followers of Jesus (in Evangelical circles), that they want everyone to be saved, and they have compassion on them, whether it be atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or other Christian sects (Catholics, Lutherans, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, etc..). Now on the other hand, there are always people with arrogance, prejudice and tribal attitudes towards those who are outside of their group/church. This type of attitude has been preached against in every church I've ever attended. It is in direct opposition to what Jesus taught and, regardless of the motives, it's sinful to not love and have compassion on those with whom we disagree with and/or think are lost. The church I attend in Utah, never preaches or talks negatively about Mormons. In fact we have Mormons (including a Bishop) regularly attend our weekly Bible study. I'm pretty sure most of the members think Mormons are not saved, but that doesn't equate to a negative attitude towards them as individuals. By the way, not all Evangelicals believe in "eternal torment". I actually believe in destruction, or Gehenna ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna#Rabbinical_Judaism) for those who are not in Christ. Although I do believe there is some punishment, it's not eternal, and it's proportional to the level of rebellion within the heart of each individual being. I sometimes joke with my Mormon friends about coming to visit me in the terrestrial kingdom
RockHopper Posted January 10, 2018 Author Posted January 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Through the power of the Holy Spirit, God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ (two separate beings) are omnipresent. They and the Heavenly Host do everything possible to help us return to their presence. Thanks for the response. I think the important thing to me is that Mormons want to have a relationship with God the Father and that they believe His Son's life, death, burial and resurrection is the path to God the Father. I'm not convinced that the other areas/details (on which we might disagree) necessarily disqualify someone from receiving the gift of Jesus.
Josh Khinder Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 18 minutes ago, RockHopper said: Thanks for the response. I think the important thing to me is that Mormons want to have a relationship with God the Father and that they believe His Son's life, death, burial and resurrection is the path to God the Father. I'm not convinced that the other areas/details (on which we might disagree) necessarily disqualify someone from receiving the gift of Jesus. There are major differences between Mormonism and traditional Christianity
Bobbieaware Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 57 minutes ago, RockHopper said: It's a fair premise. I do think that most Evangelicals believe in "eternal torment". So, I agree that this view leads them to be more antagonistic towards false teachings, which would include LDS teachings. They believe that Mormons are leading people to hell. So when they talk about Mormons, as a group, it's going to be very negative, if not hostile. But when it comes to Mormon's as individuals, it's been my experience with devout followers of Jesus (in Evangelical circles), that they want everyone to be saved, and they have compassion on them, whether it be atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or other Christian sects (Catholics, Lutherans, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, etc..). Now on the other hand, there are always people with arrogance, prejudice and tribal attitudes towards those who are outside of their group/church. This type of attitude has been preached against in every church I've ever attended. It is in direct opposition to what Jesus taught and, regardless of the motives, it's sinful to not love and have compassion on those with whom we disagree with and/or think are lost. The church I attend in Utah, never preaches or talks negatively about Mormons. In fact we have Mormons (including a Bishop) regularly attend our weekly Bible study. I'm pretty sure most of the members think Mormons are not saved, but that doesn't equate to a negative attitude towards them as individuals. By the way, not all Evangelicals believe in "eternal torment". I actually believe in destruction, or Gehenna ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna#Rabbinical_Judaism) for those who are not in Christ. Although I do believe there is some punishment, it's not eternal, and it's proportional to the level of rebellion within the heart of each individual being. I sometimes joke with my Mormon friends about coming to visit me in the terrestrial kingdom It’s understandable that a compassionate Evangelical, one who cannot see the logic behind the notion that a God of perfect love would condemn otherwise decent human beings to an endless hell of unimaginable suffering, would opt to go the Gehenna route (I’m sure you know this is also a Jehovah’s Witness belief). Meanwhile, the LDS scriptures teach that except for the sons of perdition, those who steadfastly refuse to accept Christ despite exhaustive efforts to bring them to repentance, all will eventually come unto the Savior and receive of his salvation. In Mormonism, the vast majority of the human race will accept Christ either while in the body or after death in the realm of the departed dead where Christ is preached the to the spirits of all those who once lived in the body. So except for the aforementioned sons of perdition, all will eventually bow the knee before the Father and confess unto their salvation that Jesus is the Christ. In other words, the LDS God is very patient and sees no reasonable need to send his children to an everlasting hell unless and until they have first been given every gracious opportunity to accept him prior to the day of the final judgement. It makes sense to me that this is how a God of perfect love and mercy would govern and administer his kingdom. Edited January 11, 2018 by Bobbieaware
RockHopper Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 18 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said: There are major differences between Mormonism and traditional Christianity Hey Josh, I understand your position:). I'm sure we agree on more things than we disagree, and it's not that I'm unaware of the differences, concerns, etc. between let's say Baptist theology vs LDS theology. But, I'm not going to spend time defending/affirming each point in your list. All I can say is that some of these points are simplistic, when they are actually a bit more nuanced for both Baptists and Mormons (let alone other denominations). For me it comes down to the gospel. I think the gospel a simple message, offered to all those who want to make Jesus their Lord and Savior. I don't believe it's a checklist of doctrinal agreement. For me, this scene sums up the simplicity of Jesus gift to all.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 12 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said: There are major differences between Mormonism and traditional Christianity Once again you have deliberately falsified the Mormon position: The Bible does not reject additional revelation, and all the Mormon biblical scholars I know of use standard exegesis of the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts in interpretation, while evangelicals impose pagan Greek philosophical demands on the text through obtuse and absurd creedal formulations -- part and parcel of the Great Apostasy of Christianity from the teachings of the Gospel. Since the biblical text plainly presents an anthropomorphic God of flesh and bone both before and after the incarnation of Jesus, and since the biblical text presents God as creating from already available, unorganized matter, evangelicals must foist their false eisegetic version of reality upon everyone. There is no creation from nothing in the Bible. Jesus himself repeatedly affirms (as does his brother James) that we will be judged by our works, and that works demonstrate our faith -- for faith without works is dead as a body without a spirit. The Atonement is central to all Mormon teachings. To deny that is a deliberate lie. Of course, Pres Richard Mouw (himself an evangelical) has said that evangelicals have long been “bearing false witness against” Mormons (in the foreword to F. Beckwith, C. Mosser, and P. Owen, The New Mormon Challenge [Zondervan, 2002], 11). Why are you following the Father of all Lies, Josh?
RockHopper Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 31 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: It’s understandable that a compassionate Evangelical, one who cannot see the logic behind the notion that a God of perfect love would condemn otherwise decent human beings to an endless hell of unimaginable suffering, would opt to go the Gehenna route (I’m sure you know this is also a Jehovah’s Witness belief). Meanwhile, the LDS scriptures teach that except for the sons of perdition, those who steadfastly refuse to accept Christ despite exhaustive efforts to bring them to repentance, all will eventually come unto the Savior and receive of his salvation. In Mormonism, the vast majority of the human race will accept Christ either while in the body or after death in the realm of the departed dead where Christ is preached the to the spirits of all those who once lived in the body. So except for the aforementioned sons of perdition, all will eventually bow the knee before the Father and confess unto their salvation that Jesus is the Christ. In other words, the LDS God is very patient and sees no reasonable need to send his children to an everlasting hell unless and until they have first been given every gracious opportunity to accept him prior to the day of the final judgement. It makes sense to me that this is how a God of perfect love and mercy would govern and administer his kingdom. Mmm... I'm tempted to just let the discussion drop Anyway, yes I'm aware that JWs and Seventh Day Adventists share this view. And I'm convinced that the Apostles and Jesus do as well, but that's neither here nor there I agree that God is love, and that he wants all men (and women) to be saved. To me it's a question of what God does with the rebellious, those who refuse to love Him? It's like having a bunch of children, but one is determined to hurt, deceive, torment his other siblings. Now a loving Father would work with this child, try to help him, correct him, guide him, but at some point if he continues to refuse (and God knows our hearts), God would be forced to either isolate (aka imprison) this child or (for lack of a better term) put him out of his misery. Being alone, imprisoned for eternity, (let alone tormented) doesn't seem merciful. So that's my take, which doesn't sound much different than yours. As to punishment, well that's in the Bible. As to the nature of that punishment (what it is, how long it lasts), well that's not really clear from the Bible. But the ultimate end of the wicked and rebellious is fairly clear to me 2 Peter 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
Josh Khinder Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Once again you have deliberately falsified the Mormon position: The Bible does not reject additional revelation, and all the Mormon biblical scholars I know of use standard exegesis of the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts in interpretation, while evangelicals impose pagan Greek philosophical demands on the text through obtuse and absurd creedal formulations -- part and parcel of the Great Apostasy of Christianity from the teachings of the Gospel. Since the biblical text plainly presents an anthropomorphic God of flesh and bone both before and after the incarnation of Jesus, and since the biblical text presents God as creating from already available, unorganized matter, evangelicals must foist their false eisegetic version of reality upon everyone. There is no creation from nothing in the Bible. Jesus himself repeatedly affirms (as does his brother James) that we will be judged by our works, and that works demonstrate our faith -- for faith without works is dead as a body without a spirit. The Atonement is central to all Mormon teachings. To deny that is a deliberate lie. Of course, Pres Richard Mouw (himself an evangelical) has said that evangelicals have long been “bearing false witness against” Mormons (in the foreword to F. Beckwith, C. Mosser, and P. Owen, The New Mormon Challenge [Zondervan, 2002], 11). Why are you following the Father of all Lies, Josh? You can find chiasmus in Alice and wonderland, big deal and the Mormon atonement is in the garden of Gethsemane not found in The Book of Mormon, instead it teaches it was on the cross 1 Nephi 11:33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world. https://literarydevices.net/chiasmus/ Edited January 11, 2018 by Josh Khinder
JLHPROF Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Josh Khinder said: There are major differences between Mormonism and traditional Christianity You can post these "differences" all you want. Nobody is denying there are differences between Mormonism and "traditional" Christianity. The better question is which one has it right. You of course assume the "traditional" Christian interpretation of scripture to be the right one, but that is a matter of faith just like the Mormon interpretation is a matter of faith for us. Posting differences between religions is meaningless as to the truthfulness of either.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 13 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said: You can find chiasmus in Alice and wonderland, big deal and the Mormon atonement is in the garden of Gethsemane not found in The Book of Mormon, instead it teaches it was on the cross 1 Nephi 11:33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world. https://literarydevices.net/chiasmus/ Instead of continually lying about Mormon beliefs (and blindly participating in anti-Mormon propaganda), why don't you simply ask us what we actually believe? You might even learn something, Josh. Well, perhaps you prefer to be Wormwood taking direction from Screwtape, as it were.
Bobbieaware Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 28 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said: You can find chiasmus in Alice and wonderland, big deal and the Mormon atonement is in the garden of Gethsemane not found in The Book of Mormon, instead it teaches it was on the cross 1 Nephi 11:33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world. https://literarydevices.net/chiasmus/ The Book of Mormon testifies that the atoning sacrifice took place in both Gethsemane and on Calvary. See for yourself... 7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, BLOOD COMETH FROM EVERY PORE, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people. (Mosiah 3) Hopefully, this will be the last time you try to spread this incorrect information. I’m sure you didn’t do it on purpose, but like far too many anti-Mormons you often jump to conclusions without knowing what you’re talking about.
Josh Khinder Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 32 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: You can post these "differences" all you want. Nobody is denying there are differences between Mormonism and "traditional" Christianity. The better question is which one has it right. You of course assume the "traditional" Christian interpretation of scripture to be the right one, but that is a matter of faith just like the Mormon interpretation is a matter of faith for us. Posting differences between religions is meaningless as to the truthfulness of either. The Book of Mormon agrees with Traditional Christianity on all aspects .
Josh Khinder Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 25 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Instead of continually lying about Mormon beliefs (and blindly participating in anti-Mormon propaganda), why don't you simply ask us what we actually believe? You might even learn something, Josh. Well, perhaps you prefer to be Wormwood taking direction from Screwtape, as it were. Here's my beliefs and happy to share them Jesus laid aside his Equality, Wealth and Joy with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit and humbled himself to the form of a slave, when he became man .. ”Who although being essentially one with God and in the Form of God {possessing the fullness of the attributes which make GOD GOD} did not think this equality with God was a thing to be grasped or retained.” Philippians 2:6 Amplified version “For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.” 2 Cor. 8:9 Hebrews 12 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. In the original language “for the joy” means “he exchanged Joy for Shame”. Thank you Jesus for coming down from your throne in heaven where you were the Almighty God, “EL SHADDAI”, The Great I AM creator of all things in heaven and earth, visible and invisible, thrones, dominions, and principalities and powers . You were rich yet you became poor. You were Almighty yet you emptied yourself and became a humble servant, you exchanged joy for sorrow, sorrow by dying a shameful death on a cross as a criminal whipped with leaden strips even thou you had no sin . Thank you Jesus for your pain and sacrifice. Luke 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. It's interesting how Jesus The Almighty God the creator of everything that exist both in heaven and earth humbled himself to a point where he was obedient to Mary and Joseph one of the poorest couples in the world he created and he washed the feet of the disciples something done by gentile slaves only. Was forbidden for Israelites slaves to do. Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Hebrews 1 1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; Rev 3: 14 “To the angel (divine messenger) of the church in Laodicea write: “These are the words of the Amen, the trusted and faithful and true Witness, the Beginning and Origin of God’s creation: Even the Book of Agrees Jesus is the supreme creator 3 Nephi 9: 15 “Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.” The Book of Helaman Chapter 14: 12 And that ye might know of the coming of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and that ye might know of the signs of his coming, to the intent that ye might believe on his name. https://youtu.be/lFFkS0FhENQ
Bobbieaware Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, RockHopper said: Mmm... I'm tempted to just let the discussion drop Anyway, yes I'm aware that JWs and Seventh Day Adventists share this view. And I'm convinced that the Apostles and Jesus do as well, but that's neither here nor there I agree that God is love, and that he wants all men (and women) to be saved. To me it's a question of what God does with the rebellious, those who refuse to love Him? It's like having a bunch of children, but one is determined to hurt, deceive, torment his other siblings. Now a loving Father would work with this child, try to help him, correct him, guide him, but at some point if he continues to refuse (and God knows our hearts), God would be forced to either isolate (aka imprison) this child or (for lack of a better term) put him out of his misery. Being alone, imprisoned for eternity, (let alone tormented) doesn't seem merciful. So that's my take, which doesn't sound much different than yours. As to punishment, well that's in the Bible. As to the nature of that punishment (what it is, how long it lasts), well that's not really clear from the Bible. But the ultimate end of the wicked and rebellious is fairly clear to me 2 Peter 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. The Latter-Day Saints believe that last line from 2nd Peter is speaking of the sons of perdition. You are exactly correct. A truly loving God “would work with this child, try to help him, correct him, guide him,” which is why the Latter-Day Saints believe before the final day of judgement there won’t be a single person who ever lived who will not have been patiently worked with, compassionately helped, repeatedly and firmly corrected and thoroughly guided into the truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ so that he or she might be able make a fully-informed decision as to whether or not to come unto Christ and be saved. Wouldn’t the easiest and fairest way to be sure everyone who ever lived has a real shot at salvation would be to make sure before the final judgement everyone has been thoroughly taught the gospel so that if they don’t obtain salvation it won’t be anybody’s fault but their own? Peter agrees with the Latter-Day Saints on this point. 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4) Edited January 11, 2018 by Bobbieaware
Josh Khinder Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 34 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: The Book of Mormon testifies that the atoning sacrifice took place in both Gethsemane and on Calvary. See for yourself... 7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, BLOOD COMETH FROM EVERY PORE, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people. (Mosiah 3) Hopefully, this will be the last time you try to spread this incorrect information. I’m sure you didn’t do it on purpose, but like far too many anti-Mormons you often jump to conclusions without knowing what you’re talking about. Don't see atonement there in fact death was at the cross , he wasn't slain in the Garden for our sins . 1 Nephi 11:33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.
JLHPROF Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 38 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said: The Book of Mormon agrees with Traditional Christianity on all aspects . No, you misread, misapply, and misunderstand both the Book of Mormon and the Bible. And why wouldn't you - if traditional Christianity can misread the Bible to come up with incorrect doctrine it makes sense that they would do the same to the Book of Mormon. If you start with the wrong understanding you are going to see the wrong interpretations.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 6 hours ago, Josh Khinder said: Isn't actually Richard Mouw a Mormon sympathizer who debates Robert Millet ? Yes in the Mormon faith Jesus is eternal like all humans, animals and plants . Dr. Richard Mouw is an evangelical Presbyterian minister, former President of Fuller Theological Seminary, and more importantly an honest man. You might try learning something from his long study of Mormonism. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 2 hours ago, Josh Khinder said: ........................ Amplified version Instead of a dishonest "Amplified version" of the Bible, you might try a straight scholarly translation. Perhaps God's word isn't enough for you in its Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek version, or as directly translated from those languages. Instead you must "amplify" it according to your apriori pagan creed. 2 hours ago, Josh Khinder said: ..................................... the Almighty God, “EL SHADDAI”, The Great I AM creator of all things in heaven and earth, visible and invisible, thrones, dominions, and principalities and powers . .......................................... You don't even know the meaning of those terms in English or Hebrew, Josh. For you they are pagan magical incantations, which you repeat as though they will bring you some sort of special power. If you were sincere, you could actually learn something about holy Scripture and what it means. 2
cdowis Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 23 hours ago, RockHopper said: So His presence is all around us and through all things. Yes and no. That's sounds like the same God I believe in. Christ made it clear that He was resurrected with a physical body. "f ye have seen me ye have seen he Father", even as Stephen saw the Son on the right hand of the Father. I will not presume to tell you what you believe. Does this also include the presence of His Son? Meaning is Christ through His Father all around us, etc Yes and no. Doctrine and Covenants 38:2 The same which aknoweth all things, for ball things are cpresent before mine eyes; Edited January 11, 2018 by cdowis
Bobbieaware Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Josh Khinder said: Don't see atonement there in fact death was at the cross , he wasn't slain in the Garden for our sins . 1 Nephi 11:33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world. So you make the assertion that the Book of Mormon doesn’t speak of Christ’s agony in Gethsemane. I then provide a verse from the Book of Mormon that speaks of Christ’s suffering for sin in Gethsemane, when his holy blood issued from every pore of his sacred body. But instead of saying, “thank you, I stand corrected,” you act as if I didn’t provide a verse that contradicts your assertion. Try focusing instead of flailing about. The Latter-Day Saints believe Christ began the process of suffering and atoning for our sins in Gethsemane, where he suffered in sore agony and shed great gouts of his holy blood. He then shed more of his atoning blood when he was scourged within an inch of his life by the brutal Roman torture masters. Finally, he consummated his atoning sacrifice on Calvary’s cross whereon he suffered more unspeakable agony and even shed more of his precious atoning blood. Just because Christ consummated his atoning sacrifice on the cross of Calvary doesn’t mean that the blood he shed in Gethsemane and during his scourging wasn’t also atoning blood shed for the sins of the world. Or have you forgotten when Paul testified that “without the shedding of blood there is no remission.” Christ shed his holy blood in all three places. Whether you like it or not, or want to admit it or not, Christ didn’t only shed his atoning blood on the cross, so get over it if you can. Or will you deny that Isaiah prophesied “and with his stripes (when he was whipped) we are healed?” Edited January 11, 2018 by Bobbieaware
Josh Khinder Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 49 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Instead of a dishonest "Amplified version" of the Bible, you might try a straight scholarly translation. Perhaps God's word isn't enough for you in its Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek version, or as directly translated from those languages. Instead you must "amplify" it according to your apriori pagan creed. You don't even know the meaning of those terms in English or Hebrew, Josh. For you they are pagan magical incantations, which you repeat as though they will bring you some sort of special power. If you were sincere, you could actually learn something about holy Scripture and what it means. So what do you disagree Robert ? and what terms are you referring too ?
RockHopper Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: Wouldn’t the easiest and fairest way to be sure everyone who ever lived has a real shot at salvation would be to make sure before the final judgement everyone has been thoroughly taught the gospel so that if they don’t obtain salvation it won’t be anybody’s fault but their own? Peter agrees with the Latter-Day Saints on this point. I do think that Christ works in ways that we do not see or completely understand, in this world and in the grave (Sheol). 1 Peter 4:6 is a great passage and everyone should take pause when they read that. Another one is 1 Peter 3:18-20: For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah... I do know that God's ways are perfect and that His judgements are just. Both Mormons and Evangelicals believe this. I think Evangelicals are much more quick to say it's not about fairness, that no one deserves to exist, to be forgiven, to receive salvation, etc.. Also, it's a belief that we can't understand everything about God's judgements. He knows the heart of each being, and his judgements are perfectly just. It's not our position to question them or Him. The most extreme of these views are the Calvinistic ones, aka predestination. They believe that each being is predestined for eternal life or eternal punishment. To me that's crazy and I think they are seriously misinterpreting specific Scriptures. But, I still consider some of them my brothers and sisters. It's kind of sad how much bickering/suspicion there is among those who claim to be following Jesus. But I do understand. It is about eternal life with God, and that's something we should take very seriously, for ourselves and our neighbors.
Recommended Posts