Acts 17:28 Question

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

No, Jesus was the only "man" to be born on this temporal earth with eternal life. He didn't need salvation. Salvation necessarily means salvation from the punishment of sin. Jesus committed no sin, thus did not need salvation. He agreed to come here - following the footsteps of the Father in all He did for He did nothing of Himself, but only what He had seen the Father do. Apparently your Jesus did nothing He had seen the Father do, since the Father has never come to this earth to be seen of men. 

This is true.
And yet Christ still followed all the same steps we do to receive salvation.
So not only didn't he earn salvation, he acted in a way that showed obedience to the requirements for salvation.

Christ wasn't a do as I say, not as I do leader.  He modeled the requirements we have and showed obedience to law.  He wasn't exempt from the laws pertaining to salvation, regardless of whether he needed to earn his own salvation.  He still followed the path and laws.

[RevTestament]

12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

This is true.
And yet Christ still followed all the same steps we do to receive salvation.
So not only didn't he earn salvation, he acted in a way that showed obedience to the requirements for salvation.

Christ wasn't a do as I say, not as I do leader.  He modeled the requirements we have and showed obedience to law.  He wasn't exempt from the laws pertaining to salvation, regardless of whether he needed to earn his own salvation.  He still followed the path and laws.

Well yes and no. I think you know where I come from. Yes, I agree with Joseph Smith that the Son had to follow "the law" and that if we want to be like Him, we must do so also. The question for me is when. I don't believe Jesus came to this earth to save Himself. He didn't need saving, but came as our Savior. However, unlike some of my fellow LDS counterparts, I believe he was like us on a prior world where He did need saving, and followed in the footsteps of His Father to the point where the Father told Him, "thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee." And yes if you will "he earned his wings" and became the author of our eternal salvation as Hebrews says, and the revelator of the Father even up on the cross. Thus, He is our "fellow" as scripture says and our elder brother in LDS parlance - a job Satan once tried to take on, but fell.

Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

I 100% agree that Yeshua was teaching by example. Even as He had seen the Father do, and so did likewise. Welcome to Priesthood 301 - this is where the meat gets taught. 

[pogi]

37 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

No, Jesus was the only "man" to be born on this temporal earth with eternal life. He didn't need salvation. Salvation necessarily means salvation from the punishment of sin. Jesus committed no sin, thus did not need salvation. He agreed to come here - following the footsteps of the Father in all He did for He did nothing of Himself, but only what He had seen the Father do. Apparently your Jesus did nothing He had seen the Father do, since the Father has never come to this earth to be seen of men. 

Yep!  He is the Sav-ior, not the sav-ed.  

He didn't earn salvation, but he did earn the title "Savior".  That was not a free gift. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

 I don't believe Jesus came to this earth to save Himself. He didn't need saving, but came as our Savior.

I agree with that.  Nobody "saved" Jesus.  And he had no sins to be saved from other than birth into a fallen world/body, "original sin".  And his resurrection overcame that.

The question at hand is what would have happened had Jesus exercised his ability to choose and act, and had not been baptized, had not obeyed the Father, had not shown obedience to all the laws he was modelling.  Would that have changed HIS position.

 

Edited January 12, 2018 by JLHPROF

[Bobbieaware]

4 hours ago, snowflake said:

I believe one of the big distinctions between the LDS and traditional Christianity is that the LDS believe that people in general are "good", and are born sinless. Christians don't really think people are good in general (at least I don't)because they are born under a curse because of Adam's sin (the fall). 

Understanding this premise helps one to understand the need for "salvation" in Christianity, to the Christian, without accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior before death = Hell.

For the Mormon....meh.....no big deal.... everyone is basically "saved" at some point, either on earth or in the afterlife.  

As usual, when it comes to things LDS, you don’t know what you’re talking about. The Book of Mormon tells us much about the nature of the fallen state that belies your claim. 

The prophet Jacob said:

8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.

9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.

10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit. (2 Nephi 9)

The prophet Mormon said:

1 And thus we can behold how false, and also the unsteadiness of the hearts of the children of men; yea, we can see that the Lord in his great infinite goodness doth bless and prosper those who put their trust in him.

2 Yea, and we may see at the very time when he doth prosper his people, yea, in the increase of their fields, their flocks and their herds, and in gold, and in silver, and in all manner of precious things of every kind and art; sparing their lives, and delivering them out of the hands of their enemies; softening the hearts of their enemies that they should not declare wars against them; yea, and in fine, doing all things for the welfare and happiness of his people; yea, then is the time that they do harden their hearts, and do forget the Lord their God, and do trampleunder their feet the Holy One—yea, and this because of their ease, and their exceedingly great prosperity.

3 And thus we see that except the Lord doth chasten his people with many afflictions, yea, except he doth visit them with death and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence, they will not remember him.

4 O how foolish, and how vain, and how evil, and devilish, and how quick to do iniquity, and how slow to do good, are the children of men; yea, how quick to hearken unto the words of the evil one, and to set their hearts upon the vain things of the world!

5 Yea, how quick to be lifted up in pride; yea, how quick to boast, and do all manner of that which is iniquity; and how slow are they to remember the Lord their God, and to give ear unto his counsels, yea, how slow to walk in wisdom’s paths!

6 Behold, they do not desire that the Lord their God, who hath created them, should rule and reign over them; notwithstanding his great goodness and his mercy towards them, they do set at naught his counsels, and they will not that he should be their guide.

7 O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth. (Helaman 12)

The prophet king Benjamin said:

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father. (Mosiah 3)

[RevTestament]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

Yep!  He is the Sav-ior, not the sav-ed.  

He didn't earn salvation, but he did earn the title "Savior".  That was not a free gift. 

I did not dispute that at all. As I said He "became the author of our eternal salvation as Hebrews says." see Heb 5:9. He came as our Savior and already had that title. See Isaiah 60. He also already held the title of YHWH according to the OT.  See Gen 3:22 and several other scriptures. So you are right. He very much earned the title Savior, and only Begotten Son as well. That is why He is the Only Begotten of the Father. We are undeserving fellows in comparison, but He showed His love for us, even as the Father has loved us, and thus according to Hebrews 1:

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

[RockHopper]

20 hours ago, RevTestament said:

To the extent you are trying to follow a Jesus of scripture and not the trinitarian Jesus, they may say you believe in a different Jesus. Is that heresy?

Hey Rev,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me.  There's quite a bit that you covered there .  When it comes to the nature of God, I think there are many mysteries that are beyond our comprehension (in this life).  Some of those mysteries involve the exact nature and relationship of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.  I don't have a problem with the Trinity doctrine, probably 99% of the people I attend church with believe this.     Now I don't go around my church preaching my views. I think being divisive is much more damaging than not having everyone know my $.02, even though I know I'm obviously right

Edited January 12, 2018 by RockHopper

[RevTestament]

2 minutes ago, RockHopper said:

Hey Rev,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me.  There's quite a bit that you covered there .  When it comes to the nature of God, I think there are many mysteries that are beyond our comprehension.  Some of those mysteries involve the exact nature and relationship of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.  I don't have a problem with the Trinity doctrine, probably 99% of the people I attend church with believe this. 

Well, when a lot of Christians say "Trinity doctrine" what they mean is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as one God. I believe the Father and Son are YHWH Elohim together. Scripture is less clear about the Holy Spirit, but Abraham does talk about seeing three He calls YHWH. I do believe those three form the Godhead. My beliefs about the nature of God have changed over the years, and I would say are unique. For instance I believe that Orthodoxy erred in making El Shaddai the Father in the creeds. El is a singular word which probably is better translated Power. I believe Yeshua was referring to Himself as El Shaddai in John 8:58. I believe the Father is El Elyon, the Most High Power. That is not a title the Son shares as yet in scripture, but they are both YHWH Elohim or one "Lord" in English parlance, much like man and wife become one/echad flesh. Anyway, it would take awhile to unpack all my beliefs on the nature of God, but suffice it to say, I am probably a bit unusual  

My main issues with the trinity doctrine aren't really about trying to describe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as One. My main issue is I disagree with the Nicene Creed declaring that the Son is "begotten before all ages/worlds/aeon."  I think that simply serves to hide the true nature of the Son's begottenness. There are a few "traditional" Christians who agree with me to the extent that I believe the Son is related to the Father by covenant. I believe Hebrews 1 serves to show the Son is essentially legally "adopted" by the Father. His begotten nature doesn't have to do with being physically born or the like. Then He wouldn't be the only begotten. He was begotten by the oath of the Father:

Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Heb 7:21 (For those ^apriests were made without an oath; but this with an ^boath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)

So, these scriptures indicate the Son was begotten as the Son by Oath, rather than by some physical means. Trinitarianism frankly just bypasses that, and makes the Son eternally begotten so it can say the Son was always the Son. I guess one either believes that or not. What if it is wrong? What if the Son was begotten by the oath of the Father? Then perhaps Arius was closer to the truth than Orthodoxy.... Maybe the 300 something minority bishops didn't have the authority to decide that for other Christians.(History indicates around 1600 bishops in the empire at the time). 
 

Thanks for your interest. I don't believe the mysteries of God are beyond our comprehension. I believe they will be revealed by the seventh trump when the mystery of God should be finished. I like a scripture which says:

Proverbs 25:2

2 It is the glory of God to ^aconceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

I have spent many years "ponderizing" the scriptures on these points - to use a term one of our general authorities made popular. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of revelation. Cheers.

 

[Josh Khinder]

7 hours ago, pogi said:

Yep!  He is the Sav-ior, not the sav-ed.  

He didn't earn salvation, but he did earn the title "Savior".  That was not a free gift. 

 

Wasn't Jesus called the Savior way before he came to this broken world ?

 

Isaiah 43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

Isaiah 45:21 — Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time: who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.

Hosea 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.

 

[Josh Khinder]

Yes according to Mormon leader  Milton R. Hunter: "Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws" (The Gospel Through the Ages, p.51).

[Hamba Tuhan]

13 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

 Wasn't Jesus called the Savior way before he came to this broken world ?

Yes! In fact, he was our Saviour before this broken world even existed.

One of my favourite verses on this is Revelation 13:8: 'And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world' (emphasis added).

 

Edited January 12, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[RevTestament]

41 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

 

Wasn't Jesus called the Savior way before he came to this broken world ?

 

Isaiah 43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

Isaiah 45:21 — Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time: who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.

Hosea 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.

YHWH are one. Yet, there is one Most High in this world. There is not another before Him, nor after Him. Although Yeshua will inherit all the Father hath, that doesn't form a new God. It just ads a member to the Father. That is not a new God or a different God. Whether you see the Son or the Father it is the same. Perhaps the best analogy would be to take a group like the Kiwanis. If one becomes a Kiwanis, is there a new Kiwanis afterwards? Does the nature of the Kiwanis change? Likewise there was no Kiwanis before the Kiwanis. Is there any Savior besides Jesus? No, there is none before, and none after. He is the only name by which we can be saved. That is all those scriptures mean. The Lord does not speak of anything before the beginning except when Yeshua tells us of the glory He had with the Father before the world was.

[Anakin7]

"Before" and "after" refer to position not time in the above references of scripture.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

He Died To Make Men Holy

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel Son Of Thunder Kryptonian

[pogi]

10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I did not dispute that at all.

I know.  I was just agreeing with you

[pogi]

8 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

 Wasn't Jesus called the Savior way before he came to this broken world ?

First, the atonement was infinite and eternal.  Meaning that its effects reached forward and backward through all eternity, so that in some incomprehensible way, it was in effect even before Christ's time on earth.  This allowed God to forgive sin and preserve those righteous souls who perished before the time of Christ from suffering spiritual death and hell.  The power of the atonement was in effect before Christ's time, due to its infinite and eternal nature.  However, this in no way precludes the necessity of the work of the atonement.  Though Christ was always the Savior, due to the foreknowledge of God and the eternal effects of His atonement, he still needed to do the work, or the plan of God would have been frustrated.  It was absolutely necessary.  So, yes, he did earn the title of Savior.  And never forget, Josh, that you were purchased with a tremendous price (1 Corinth 7:23).  You have been bought and paid for by Christ, so you belong to him (1 Corinth 6:19-20).  Your salvation was not free, but you were bought with his blood (Gal 3:13; Acts 20:28).  Jesus earned the title of your Savior.  He earned our salvation to answer the demands of justice.

Please do not diminish the significance of that purchase.  Please do not diminish the work of the Lord to a thing of naught, or an "unnecessary work".  He did the work, he earned the title, and the proof of purchase is in the prints of his hands.  Without that work, all is lost.  Christ faithfully completed the work that the Father gave him to do (John 17:4), and glory be to God for it.   

Edited January 12, 2018 by pogi

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

"Before" and "after" refer to position not time in the above references of scripture.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

He Died To Make Men Holy

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel Son Of Thunder Kryptonian

Interesting interpretation. Do you have any scriptural evidence for it?

Here, I do note that there is scriptural evidence for eternal meaning scope rather than time. In other words being sentenced to eternal torment in Hell, doesn't mean one can never escape. It means while there, one will experience eternal torment - torment which has no bounds. The evidence for that is in D&C. Somewhat lesser evidence is in Revelation which says death and hell shall give up their dead to be judged in the final judgment - inferring some may repent at that time, and be forgiven - thus, escaping hell. Kinda like the Catholic idea of purgatory except not everyone goes there.

Anything like this for your idea of before and after?

Edited January 12, 2018 by RevTestament

[RevTestament]

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

First, the atonement was infinite and eternal.  Meaning that its effects reached forward and backward through all eternity, so that in some incomprehensible way, it was in effect even before Christ's time on earth.  This allowed God to forgive sin and preserve those righteous souls who perished before the time of Christ from suffering spiritual death and hell.  The power of the atonement was in effect before Christ's time, due to its infinite and eternal nature.  However, this in no way precludes the necessity of the work of the atonement.  Though Christ was always the Savior, due to the foreknowledge of God and the eternal effects of His atonement, he still needed to do the work, or the plan of God would have been frustrated.  It was absolutely necessary.  So, yes, he did earn the title of Savior.  And never forget, Josh, that you were purchased with a tremendous price (1 Corinth 7:23).  You have been bought and paid for by Christ, so you belong to him (1 Corinth 6:19-20).  Your salvation was not free, but you were bought with his blood (Gal 3:13; Acts 20:28).  Jesus earned the title of your Savior.  He earned our salvation to answer the demands of justice.

Please do not diminish the significance of that purchase.  Please do not diminish the work of the Lord to a thing of naught, or an "unnecessary work".  He did the work, he earned the title, and the proof of purchase is in the prints of his hands.  Without that work, all is lost.  Christ faithfully completed the work that the Father gave him to do (John 17:4), and glory be to God for it.   

Hi Pogi, 

Not to debate with someone largely agreeing with me, but I no longer think of the atonement that way. See my post above. I think of the atonement being infinite in scope rather than infinite in time. In other words it applies to cover all sins committed on this world - no matter how many or how great - except the unforgivable ones. It does not apply to prior worlds or future worlds.

[pogi]

8 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Hi Pogi, 

Not to debate with someone largely agreeing with me, but I no longer think of the atonement that way. See my post above. I think of the atonement being infinite in scope rather than infinite in time. In other words it applies to cover all sins committed on this world - no matter how many or how great - except the unforgivable ones. It does not apply to prior worlds or future worlds.

Yes, "infinite" is in relation to scope, but "eternal" is in relation to time. Otherwise, by what authority or purchasing power did God forgive sins before the atonement took place?  How were those who lived before Christ exempt from original sin and allowed to avoid hell, before the atonement?  Whether or not the atonement applied to other worlds is beyond my argument.  But I am arguing that it had effect even before it took place.  It was not just infinite, but it was also eternal.

Edited January 12, 2018 by pogi

[RevTestament]

24 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, "infinite" is in relation to scope, but "eternal" is in relation to time. Otherwise, by what authority or purchasing power did God forgive sins before the atonement took place?  How were those who lived before Christ exempt from original sin and allowed to avoid hell, before the atonement?  Whether or not the atonement applied to other worlds is beyond my argument.  But I am arguing that it had effect even before it took place.  It was not just infinite, but it was also eternal.

Hmm. I dunno. If it applied before it took place, why did Jesus say in John 8:58 that the dead would hear His voice, and those that heard would live? It sounds to me like it is being applied to those waiting resurrection in spirit prison or paradise - they need the atonement to be resurrected - to escape spirit prison or hell, and are receiving it for the first time when Jesus goes to teach them. Granted that some like Moses were translated, but other things don't seem to fit your interpretation. Perhaps sacrifice with a humble heart acted as a temporary atonement - enough to grant one admittance into paradise - just thinking out loud. I'm sure there are plenty of GAs who say otherwise, and agree with you.

Again, I don't necessarily agree with your observation about infinite and eternal. 

D&C 19:

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my lefthand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

 

What is the Lord saying here? I think He is saying eternal punishment is in scope or degree of the punishment rather than being eternally in time without end. So I do not agree with your distinction.  

[Josh Khinder]

9 hours ago, RevTestament said:

YHWH are one. Yet, there is one Most High in this world. There is not another before Him, nor after Him. Although Yeshua will inherit all the Father hath, that doesn't form a new God. It just ads a member to the Father. That is not a new God or a different God. Whether you see the Son or the Father it is the same. Perhaps the best analogy would be to take a group like the Kiwanis. If one becomes a Kiwanis, is there a new Kiwanis afterwards? Does the nature of the Kiwanis change? Likewise there was no Kiwanis before the Kiwanis. Is there any Savior besides Jesus? No, there is none before, and none after. He is the only name by which we can be saved. That is all those scriptures mean. The Lord does not speak of anything before the beginning except when Yeshua tells us of the glory He had with the Father before the world was.

 Mosiah 5:15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

[Josh Khinder]

 

46 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Hmm. I dunno. If it applied before it took place, why did Jesus say in John 8:58 that the dead would hear His voice, and those that heard would live? It sounds to me like it is being applied to those waiting resurrection in spirit prison or paradise - they need the atonement to be resurrected - to escape spirit prison or hell, and are receiving it for the first time when Jesus goes to teach them. Granted that some like Moses were translated, but other things don't seem to fit your interpretation. Perhaps sacrifice with a humble heart acted as a temporary atonement - enough to grant one admittance into paradise - just thinking out loud. I'm sure there are plenty of GAs who say otherwise, and agree with you.

Again, I don't necessarily agree with your observation about infinite and eternal. 

D&C 19:

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my lefthand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

 

What is the Lord saying here? I think He is saying eternal punishment is in scope or degree of the punishment rather than being eternally in time without end. So I do not agree with your distinction.  

Original sin was not taken away 

Mosiah 16:

3 For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil.

4 Thus all mankind were lost; and behold, they would have been endlessly lost were it not that God redeemed his people from their lost and fallen state.

 

 

Mosiah 3

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

 

2 Nephi 2:

21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Josh Khinder

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

Yes according to Mormon leader  Milton R. Hunter: "Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws" (The Gospel Through the Ages, p.51).

Here you go.

Direct quote, including link to an anti-mormon, hole in the wall site, citing someone no one ever heard of who wrote a book in the 1940's as a "leader". 

Quit JOSHING us!

You have zero credibility here finally.

[pogi]

45 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Hmm. I dunno. If it applied before it took place, why did Jesus say in John 8:58 that the dead would hear His voice, and those that heard would live? It sounds to me like it is being applied to those waiting resurrection in spirit prison or paradise - they need the atonement to be resurrected - to escape spirit prison or hell, and are receiving it for the first time when Jesus goes to teach them. Granted that some like Moses were translated, but other things don't seem to fit your interpretation. Perhaps sacrifice with a humble heart acted as a temporary atonement - enough to grant one admittance into paradise - just thinking out loud. I'm sure there are plenty of GAs who say otherwise, and agree with you.

What is the Lord saying here? I think He is saying eternal punishment is in scope or degree of the punishment rather than being eternally in time without end. So I do not agree with your distinction.  

Christ was the first fruits of the resurrection to fulfill prophecy.  But lets not limit the effects of the atonement to the resurrection alone.  The effects of the atonement (other than the resurrection) were in effect from the beginning. The Lord covered Adam in the skins of the atonement.  Those who died before Christ were not doomed to temporary hell because of Original sin or personal sin, rather they were allowed a place in paradise, to await their resurrection.  This could not be possible without the effects of the atonement reaching backwards into time.  The Lord would have had no power or authority to forgive sin without a backwards reaching atonement in time.  I don't think I need to show you evidence that the Lord forgave sins before the atonement took place. 

I am not entirely opposed to your understanding of eternal punishment. All I can say about that is, "I don't know", but I hope you are right.  But that is a completely unrelated subject all together and says nothing of the backward reaching effect of the eternal atonement.  Just because the word "eternal" is used one way in scripture, doesn't mean it can't be used another way elsewhere.  There is simply no other way to explain repentance, forgiveness, physical and spiritual healings, redemption, paradisical glory, etc. before the time of Christ. It is only by the power of the atonement that any of this was possible. 

[JLHPROF]

10 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

Yes according to Mormon leader  Milton R. Hunter: "Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws" (The Gospel Through the Ages, p.51).

 

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Here you go.

Direct quote, including link to an anti-mormon, hole in the wall site, citing someone no one ever heard of who wrote a book in the 1940's as a "leader". 

Quit JOSHING us!

You have zero credibility here finally.

And yet Elder Hunter was right.
 

[pogi]

36 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Original sin was not taken away 

Mosiah 16:

3 For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil.

4 Thus all mankind were lost; and behold, they would have been endlessly lost were it not that God redeemed his people from their lost and fallen state.

 

 

Mosiah 3

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

 

2 Nephi 2:

21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

"While The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that the transgression of Adam and Eve brought death into the world and made all mortals subject to temptation, suffering, and weakness, it denies that any culpability is automatically transmitted to Adam and Eve's offspring. All mortals commit sin, but they will be punished "for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression" (A of F 2)."

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Original_Sin

Hence Moroni 8:

Quote

 

8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

 

 

Edited January 12, 2018 by pogi