Gray Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, Tacenda said: (bold mine) So true and I need to do a better job of not regurgitating the past. Just like the Bible and it's teachings and how they are not even possible to live up to such as women must have long hair or women must not pray in public. Of course these came from men and maybe I'm taking them out of context. I'll work on concentrating on the here and now. Because such as myself with my parenting style, I would not do several things I did in the beginning with my first child etc. now if I had to do it all over again. Yeah, it's like trying to say "The Bible Says X". It's more accurate to say, "this passage in the Bible says X". There are many Biblical writers, and they often disagree. The same is true for LDS leaders. Early Christian theology evolved significantly over only a few decades. Mormon theology has also evolved and will continue to do so. 2
RockHopper Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 3 hours ago, CV75 said: I see their "presence" as a function of their power manifest by the conscious and purposeful expression of their their existence. Good enough for me Thanks for you comments.
RockHopper Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 4 hours ago, Anakin7 said: RockHopper, From my LDS Sentinel Son Of Thunder Kryptonian Archives - http://www.evangelicalsandmormonsforjesus.com The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin LDS Sentinel Son Of Thunder Kryptonian Thanks, I'll check it out.
JLHPROF Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 40 minutes ago, Gray said: "Had to earn salvation" - certainly I'm sure some church leaders have said that. It doesn't make it a Mormon belief. That is an interesting concept. Did Christ have to earn salvation? I suppose first we'd have to determine and agree on what is needed to be saved.
Josh Khinder Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Gray said: Jesus "Created being" - not quite. There are no created beings in Mormon theology. Everyone always existed. Wasn't Jesus created or first born son of God among many "Had to earn salvation" - certainly I'm sure some church leaders have said that. It doesn't make it a Mormon belief. "Common and minor importance" - Completely false "Conceived by a physical act" - a 19th century belief that continued into the 20th century. Many Mormons don't believe it, and I don't think there is any "official" position today "A married polygamist." Another 19th century belief LDS doctrine is constantly evolving. It's not just whatever radical things you can find that Brigham Young said. Created being" - not quite. There are no created beings in Mormon theology. Everyone always existed. Wasn't Jesus created or first born son of God among many I believe Mormons teach had to learn the Gospel Principles to be exalted I hear Jesus being called our Elder brother and not God like the BOM teaches in 2 Nephi 26:12, Mosiah 3: 5:15 and 3 Nephi 19:18 The last two are easily proved Edited January 11, 2018 by Josh Khinder missed a word
Robert F. Smith Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 4 hours ago, Tacenda said: Then what did they teach Robert, because you can't deny some of what Josh has put forth has been taught. But I guess a new prophet trumps an old one. And this is the crux of the matter, we can't nail our doctrine on the wall, it's like jello, it won't hold long before another doctrine has been changed to mean something else. So how do we know which is from God, because God is neverchanging according to scripture. James 1:17New International Version (NIV) 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. Josh did some cut-and-paste from an anti-Mormon source instead of actually finding out from the Mormons what they actually believe. Pool players call that "dirty pool." He clearly does not know anything about Mormons, and certainly doesn't know his Scriptures well enough to carry on a real discussion. As to your statement that Mormons "can't nail our doctrine on the wall, it's like jello," etc., I don't agree at all. Basic Mormon doctrine is not only clearcut, it also coheres with Scripture and history -- which is not true for the pagan evangelical version of biblical religion.
snowflake Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 19 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: It’s understandable that a compassionate Evangelical, one who cannot see the logic behind the notion that a God of perfect love would condemn otherwise decent human beings to an endless hell of unimaginable suffering, would opt to go the Gehenna route (I’m sure you know this is also a Jehovah’s Witness belief). I believe one of the big distinctions between the LDS and traditional Christianity is that the LDS believe that people in general are "good", and are born sinless. Christians don't really think people are good in general (at least I don't)because they are born under a curse because of Adam's sin (the fall). Understanding this premise helps one to understand the need for "salvation" in Christianity, to the Christian, without accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior before death = Hell. For the Mormon....meh.....no big deal.... everyone is basically "saved" at some point, either on earth or in the afterlife.
RockHopper Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 3 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: Good. So I have two questions for you: 1) What, if anything, do you find deficient or wanting in the LDS belief that if God is to be perfectly loving, just and merciful he has a sacred obligation to be sure that, eventually, every human being who has ever lived will have the opportunity to become thoroughly acquainted with the true gospel of Jesus Christ so that they can make a fully-informed decision as to whether or not they want to accept Christ and be saved? 2) What, if anything, do you find to be superior (superior to the above-described LDS teaching) to the belief that not all members of the human race will have the opportunity to have the gospel of Christ properly and thoroughly taught to them prior to the final judgement? 1) I don't have any issues with this perspective. For me, this topic is a debatable issue, it's not a salvation issue. Personally, I believe that God knows our hearts completely. Also, I believe that God can know if someone has hardened their heart to a point of no return. And lastly, I think the spirit world is beyond our understanding. How Christ would approach a soul in the grave is a beautiful, mystery to me. That being said, I know that Mormons have a much more concrete and well defined theology on this matter. That's ok with me, I don't have a problem with it. I'm at peace, not knowing what happens to those in Sheol, who never heard the gospel in this life. I know God is good and I trust Him in this. 2) I guess this is just followup on my answer to your first question. I don't find anyone's view on this topic superior. I think every follower of Christ is responsible to wrestle with the issues that Christ puts on their hearts. If a specific area is troubling them, they need to pray, fast, read, discuss, etc. until they feel at peace with it. If the LDS teaching on this puts your heart at peace, Amen! For me, I wasn't at peace with the idea of eternal torment. I studied the Scriptures (stick of Judah only ) relevant to this topic and about 17 years ago God just made it all clear to me. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 12 hours ago, Josh Khinder said: I stand behind everything I posted and can prove them easily, wouldn't post anything wrong You may have good intentions, Josh, but the road to Hell is lined with good intentions. Your cut-and-paste anti-Mormon postings are improper because they are false, not because you intended to post false information. You may not realize that you are serving Satan in posting lies about Mormons, but you should feel some moral obligation to get it right when making claims about the beliefs of others. What you have posted is not only false, but it has the status of idle gossip at best, and out and out libel at worst. One of the reasons for the abject apologies of Pres Richard Mouw is precisely because he could see the many falsehoods being published by his fellow evangelicals. He was embarrassed and ashamed, and so should you be. 3
Popular Post RockHopper Posted January 11, 2018 Author Popular Post Posted January 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, snowflake said: I believe one of the big distinctions between the LDS and traditional Christianity is that the LDS believe that people in general are "good", and are born sinless. Christians don't really think people are good in general (at least I don't)because they are born under a curse because of Adam's sin (the fall). Understanding this premise helps one to understand the need for "salvation" in Christianity, to the Christian, without accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior before death = Hell. For the Mormon....meh.....no big deal.... everyone is basically "saved" at some point, either on earth or in the afterlife. A couple interesting observations that your post triggered in my mind: Even though Mormons believe in a lot of second chances, they work their tails off to share their faith around the world. I would say much more so than many "mainstream" Christian denominations. Most of my Mormon neighbors/coworkers do not have "meh...no big deal" attitude. It's quite the opposite. Another interesting tangent. I was attending a Reformed church for awhile. Obviously they believe every soul is predestined to know God or not know God, yet they work so hard to share their faith. They preach about it, spur one another on to do it, etc.. In fact they are much more passionate about it than most of the other types of churches I've attended. Anyway, just some random thoughts... 5
Gray Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 24 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said: Created being" - not quite. There are no created beings in Mormon theology. Everyone always existed. Wasn't Jesus created or first born son of God among many "Born" is a kind of metaphor. Of course all early Christians considered Jesus a created being, so not sure why this would be a problem regardless. 24 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said: I believe Mormons teach had to learn the Gospel Principles to be exalted I hear Jesus being called our Elder brother and not God like the BOM teaches in 2 Nephi 26:12, Mosiah 3: 5:15 and 3 Nephi 19:18 The last two are easily proved You don't seem to get Mormonism. You can't quote a statement by some dead LDS prophet and think you've figured out what Mormons believe. 1
pogi Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 On 1/9/2018 at 9:56 PM, RockHopper said: Hi, I'm new to the forum. I'm an evangelical, but very LDS friendly :). And unlike many evangelicals, I'm hopeful, that despite our differences, we are worshiping the same God and doing our best to follow the same Lord and Savior. So with that all on the table, I'm very curious about how most Mormons view God, in the sense of His presence. In Acts 17:28 it says: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. What does this mean to most Mormons? Do they believe that the Father is all around us, that our very existence is tightly coupled with His presence? My view is that the Father is omnipresent and can see/hear everything. He knows our thoughts, He hears our prayers, He knows our motives and our deeds. And through the Father, His Son is also present in the same way. Thanks for any thoughts anyone would like to share. Welcome to the board! We believe in a Spirit force or Spirit matter that fills the immensity of space. It is in all things, through all things, round about all things, etc. It is the all seeing eye (omnipresent). It is the source of all truth, light, and knowledge (omniscient). It is the source of all power and the power by which all things were created and the law by which all things are governed (omnipotent). It is sometimes called the Spirit, the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of Christ, the light of Christ. It is not to be confused with the Holy Ghost (which sometimes shares the same terminology) which is a personage of Spirit in the form of a man, which is not omnipresent. The three distinct members of the Godhead share in this light and unites them in all things and makes them one. In that sense, it is fairly similar to the trinity. Three distinct persons united in this Spirit matter. God is in the Spirit and the Spirit is in us. It too is the means by which we become one with God by tapping into it and taking part in it. So yes, in this mystic sense, we are "tightly coupled with His presence" via the Spirit, aka the light of Christ. 2
Gray Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 43 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: That is an interesting concept. Did Christ have to earn salvation? I suppose first we'd have to determine and agree on what is needed to be saved. Do gods need to earn salvation if they're already gods?
RockHopper Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 12 minutes ago, pogi said: Welcome to the board! We believe in a Spirit force or Spirit matter that fills the immensity of space. It is in all things, through all things, round about all things, etc. It is the all seeing eye (omnipresent). It is the source of all truth, light, and knowledge (omniscient). It is the source of all power and the power by which all things were created and the law by which all things are governed (omnipotent). It is sometimes called the Spirit, the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of Christ, the light of Christ. It is not to be confused with the Holy Ghost (which sometimes shares the same terminology) which is a personage of Spirit in the form of a man, which is not omnipresent. The three distinct members of the Godhead share in this light and unites them in all things and makes them one. In that sense, it is fairly similar to the trinity. Three distinct persons united in this Spirit matter. God is in the Spirit and the Spirit is in us. It too is the means by which we become one with God by tapping into it and taking part in it. So yes, in this mystic sense, we are "tightly coupled with His presence" via the Spirit, aka the light of Christ. Thanks for this detailed description. Just like most of the other responses, this aligns (close enough ) to my understanding.
mfbukowski Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 12 hours ago, RockHopper said: Cool, I think we converge on the important things. Also, not a bad analogy, it makes sense. That was the image I had in my mind when a previous poster shared some passages from the D&C. I'm certain that if you put 100 Evangelicals in a room, there would be 100 different opinions on how Christ is connected to us, especially if you started drilling down into more and more detail I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were pretty close to how you just described it. Also remember there are differences between Mormons- many are very fundamentalistic and others are more liberal. We have wide variation in nuances of belief but it's all based on variations in interpretation of the scriptures- again, some see take them literally and others see them as allegorical. The bottom line is that each of us is to follow the Spirit within ourselves in understanding these matters. Our faith is based more on orthopraxis (LIVING the gospel ) than on "correct doctrine". Some believe prophets are infallible while others see their advice as pure wisdom but which always must be confirmed by what the Spirit tells each individual is correct. And because of this you may see statements which appear to conflict, but that is because the "prime directive" is to read and study but always follow what the spirit tells you. God teaches each of us in our own way and at our own speed, from childhood beliefs to adult understanding, and as in any church, you will see the whole spectrum here as well as in the church in general. So take everything you see with a grain of salt, including this of course. Read what everyone says and try to pick out a consensus of what board members agree on and disagree on, and throw out the extremes on both sides. Many anti-Mormons like Josh will try to tell us what we believe by quoting statements made years ago from extreme positions and not the mainstream. Such is life. As always consider the source and tone and how many agree or disagree with a certain statement. When you see one person pushing a position which everyone else on the board disagrees with- that should show you something!! 2
cdowis Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 1 hour ago, RockHopper said: Hey cdowis, Rather than missing the issue, I think I'm trying to skirt it a little. I'm certain that my view of "who is Christ and what is the nature of His relationship with the Father", does not align 100% with LDS doctrine. Nor does my view align 100% with most Evangelicals view of the Trinity. But, maybe that's OK, at least on my end. My goal is to understand the domain of who might be my brothers and sisters, regardless of whether they acknowledge me or not. I'm more than happy to read other's thoughts or share my perspective, but I'm not here to debate the issue. I do not intend to sound critical, but merely pointing out why I am unable to give you a meaningful answer. This is a failure on my part, not yours.
Josh Khinder Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 31 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: You may have good intentions, Josh, but the road to Hell is lined with good intentions. Your cut-and-paste anti-Mormon postings are improper because they are false, not because you intended to post false information. You may not realize that you are serving Satan in posting lies about Mormons, but you should feel some moral obligation to get it right when making claims about the beliefs of others. What you have posted is not only false, but it has the status of idle gossip at best, and out and out libel at worst. One of the reasons for the abject apologies of Pres Richard Mouw is precisely because he could see the many falsehoods being published by his fellow evangelicals. He was embarrassed and ashamed, and so should you be. I'm an expert on Traditional Christianity and The Mormon Faith and see no error in any of my posts
mfbukowski Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Josh Khinder said: According to 1 Tim 2:5 Jesus went to heaven with a physical body. Of course what's your point? Do you really need to write in crayon?
mfbukowski Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Josh Khinder said: I'm an expert on Traditional Christianity and The Mormon Faith and see no error in any of my posts 2
JLHPROF Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 23 minutes ago, Gray said: Do gods need to earn salvation if they're already gods? God is a priesthood office. And being a God requires obedience to law. They may not need to "earn" salvation, but there are conditions they would need to follow.
Josh Khinder Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 Just now, mfbukowski said: Of course what's your point? Do you really need to write in crayon? You made it sound like that was an exclusive LDS teaching, when Traditional Christians have always taught Jesus is a man with a body at the present time 1 Timothy 2 1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
JLHPROF Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said: I'm an expert on Traditional Christianity and The Mormon Faith and see no error in any of my posts Hahaha.... You are anything but an expert on the Mormon faith. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said: I'm an expert on Traditional Christianity and The Mormon Faith and see no error in any of my posts C'mon, Josh. Is that why you ignored my corrections to your false statements about Mormon beliefs? One would have thought that an honest man would at least want to know whether he had made a false statement, and would at least be willing to discuss it. With you that appears not to be the case, which is a mark of blatant dishonesty. Perhaps you could clarify how you imagine such disputes need to be handled, and why you hold your fellow evangelical Richard Mouw in contempt. As to your claim to be an expert who sees no error in any of his posts, there is none so blind as they who will not see -- Jesus used to talk about that, and I can quote him on that, if you have forgotten his words. 2
Gray Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: God is a priesthood office. And being a God requires obedience to law. Hmm, sounds pretty unglamorous when you put it that way. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: God is a priesthood office. And being a God requires obedience to law. They may not need to "earn" salvation, but there are conditions they would need to follow. Are you sure that God is not an existential state? How is it a priesthood office? 1
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