Robert F. Smith Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 39 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said: So what do you disagree Robert ? and what terms are you referring too ? I have already enumerated some disagreements, and you were unwilling to read actual biblical texts in order to understand them on real Mormon doctrine -- instead of the phony doctrine which you claimed Mormons believe. If you want to know what Mormons believe and preach, you have only to ask. I quoted the terms you used, and you can go back and have another look at them, if you wish, Josh. You clearly have no idea what those terms mean, and are using them as magical incantations. It is a world which is open to understanding, but you will have to jettison your false pagan evangelical beliefs in order to get there.
Bobbieaware Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, RockHopper said: I do think that Christ works in ways that we do not see or completely understand, in this world and in the grave (Sheol). 1 Peter 4:6 is a great passage and everyone should take pause when they read that. Another one is 1 Peter 3:18-20: For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah... I do know that God's ways are perfect and that His judgements are just. Both Mormons and Evangelicals believe this. I think Evangelicals are much more quick to say it's not about fairness, that no one deserves to exist, to be forgiven, to receive salvation, etc.. Also, it's a belief that we can't understand everything about God's judgements. He knows the heart of each being, and his judgements are perfectly just. It's not our position to question them or Him. The most extreme of these views are the Calvinistic ones, aka predestination. They believe that each being is predestined for eternal life or eternal punishment. To me that's crazy and I think they are seriously misinterpreting specific Scriptures. But, I still consider some of them my brothers and sisters. It's kind of sad how much bickering/suspicion there is among those who claim to be following Jesus. But I do understand. It is about eternal life with God, and that's something we should take very seriously, for ourselves and our neighbors. Paul testifies it’s not possible for anyone to properly believe in Christ unto salvation unless a duly-authorized preacher of the Gospel fully reveals Christ and his gospel of salvation to those who are ignorant of the truth, which is why the Latter-Day Saints believe everyone who has ever lived must hear and become thoroughly acquainted with the gospel before a righteous judgement can be passed upon them. Paul makes this very clear... 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Take note that before anyone can be saved they must know the name of the Lord and call upon him by his name) 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? (Note that in order to be saved one must not only know the name of the Lord and call upon him, but he must also believe in the Lord and his work of salvation) and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? (Here Paul makes it clear that none of the foregoing is possible unless one has heard all about the Lord and his gospel, and note that there’s no mention of coming to learn about him in some mysterious ill-defined way) and how shall they hear without a preacher? (So now it becomes clear that one doesn’t learn about their saving Lord through whispering winds in the trees. Rather, the way one must learn of his Lord is through an effective teacher who is well-aquiated with the gospel) 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? (Finally, it isn’t good enough that the teachers be knowledgeable and effective, but they must also be sent and approved in their assignments by God himself. In other words, everybody needs to truly understand the gospel before they can be judged in righteousness) (Romans 10) Edited January 11, 2018 by Bobbieaware
Josh Khinder Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 29 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: I have already enumerated some disagreements, and you were unwilling to read actual biblical texts in order to understand them on real Mormon doctrine -- instead of the phony doctrine which you claimed Mormons believe. If you want to know what Mormons believe and preach, you have only to ask. I quoted the terms you used, and you can go back and have another look at them, if you wish, Josh. You clearly have no idea what those terms mean, and are using them as magical incantations. It is a world which is open to understanding, but you will have to jettison your false pagan evangelical beliefs in order to get there. I stand behind everything I posted and can prove them easily, wouldn't post anything wrong
mfbukowski Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 13 hours ago, Josh Khinder said: This picture distinguishes the Mormon Jesus versus Mormon Christ Sigh Lies as usual 3
RockHopper Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 56 minutes ago, cdowis said: So His presence is all around us and through all things. Yes and no. That's sounds like the same God I believe in. Christ made it clear that He was resurrected with a physical body. "f ye have seen me ye have seen he Father", even as Stephen saw the Son on the right hand of the Father. I will not presume to tell you what you believe. Does this also include the presence of His Son? Meaning is Christ through His Father all around us, etc Yes and no. Thanks for the comments, sadly, I'm not sure I really understand. So do you believe that Jesus knows your thoughts and deeds, that He hears your prayers? Do you believe He dwells in our hearts through the Holy Ghost? What I mean is, do you believe that there is a mystical/spiritual connection to Christ, through the Holy Ghost, so that Christ dwells in our hearts? I'm not looking for a detailed description of the mechanics, or of heavenly bodies/forms, etc.. What I'm hoping is that we arrive at the same conclusion: that we have an intimate connection with Jesus through the Holy Ghost, and that our intimate connection with Christ, draws us to the Father. John 14:18-23 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Ephesians 3:14-17 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; Galations 2:19-20 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Romans 8:9-11 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
mfbukowski Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) On 1/9/2018 at 8:56 PM, RockHopper said: Hi, I'm new to the forum. I'm an evangelical, but very LDS friendly :). And unlike many evangelicals, I'm hopeful, that despite our differences, we are worshiping the same God and doing our best to follow the same Lord and Savior. So with that all on the table, I'm very curious about how most Mormons view God, in the sense of His presence. In Acts 17:28 it says: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. What does this mean to most Mormons? Do they believe that the Father is all around us, that our very existence is tightly coupled with His presence? My view is that the Father is omnipresent and can see/hear everything. He knows our thoughts, He hears our prayers, He knows our motives and our deeds. And through the Father, His Son is also present in the same way. Thanks for any thoughts anyone would like to share. Welcome You are having a great chance to view other Evangelicals in action, and understand why we tend to get a little itchy when a new one arrives in town. I am very glad you do not write in green crayon. Edited January 11, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, RockHopper said: Thanks for the comments, sadly, I'm not sure I really understand. So do you believe that Jesus knows your thoughts and deeds, that He hears your prayers? Do you believe He dwells in our hearts through the Holy Ghost? What I mean is, do you believe that there is a mystical/spiritual connection to Christ, through the Holy Ghost, so that Christ dwells in our hearts? I'm not looking for a detailed description of the mechanics, or of heavenly bodies/forms, etc.. What I'm hoping is that we arrive at the same conclusion: that we have an intimate connection with Jesus through the Holy Ghost, and that our intimate connection with Christ, draws us to the Father. John 14:18-23 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Ephesians 3:14-17 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; Galations 2:19-20 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Romans 8:9-11 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Yes that is exactly right! Yes Christ knows all we think and speak and pray but does not have to "be" everywhere to do that. Imagine perfect ESP or something like that where our thoughts are instantly discernable to him, as the messenger of the Father- the "Word" as in John 1 So Jesus was resurrected with a body, right? What happened to his body? Does it really exist in a location while his intelligence and influence fills the immensity of space? That is what we believe. He still has his body which is resurrected but he knows every thought in your heart because he communicates through the Holy Ghost and the light of Christ. Imagine the sun. It is in a definite location but it's influence and light fills the solar system. That is a poor analogy but perhaps it will help. God's influence fills the universe, of course, not just our solar system. Edited January 11, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
RockHopper Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 58 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: Paul testifies it’s not possible for anyone to properly believe in Christ unto salvation unless a duly-authorized preacher of the Gospel fully reveals Christ and his gospel of salvation to those who are ignorant of the truth, which is why the Latter-Day Saints believe everyone who has ever lived must hear and become thoroughly acquainted with the gospel before a righteous judgement can be passed upon them. Paul makes this very clear... 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Take note that before anyone can be saved they must know the name of the Lord and call upon him by his name) 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? (Note that in order to be saved one must not only know the name of the Lord and call upon him, but he must also believe in the Lord and his work of salvation) and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? (Here Paul makes it clear that none of the foregoing is possible unless one has heard all about the Lord and his gospel, and note that there’s no mention of coming to learn about him in some mysterious ill-defined way) and how shall they hear without a preacher? (So now it becomes clear that one doesn’t learn about their saving Lord through whispering winds in the trees. Rather, the way one must learn of his Lord is through an effective teacher who is well-aquiated with the gospel) 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? (Finally, it isn’t good enough that the teachers be knowledgeable and effective, but they must also be sent and approved in their assignments by God himself. In other words, everybody needs to truly understand the gospel before they can be judged in righteousness) (Romans 10) Thanks for sharing all that. I think we agree on much, but not on everything
mfbukowski Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 13 hours ago, Josh Khinder said: This picture distinguishes the Mormon Jesus versus Mormon Christ Christ is eternal as we all are. He is not a "created being" and neither are any of us He did not have to "earn salvation" - he was the most intelligent of all the spirit children of God He is God and in no way of "minor importance". That is just a pure lie. The exact process of His conception is not known- Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost and became pregnant. Some believe that God was Jesus Father in a physical sense- how that happened is unknown. Christ may have been married and probably was- there is no evidence that he was a polygamist. 1
RockHopper Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Yes that is exactly right! Yes Christ knows all we think and speak and pray but does not have to "be" everywhere to do that. Imagine perfect ESP or something like that where our thoughts are instantly discernable to him, as the messenger of the Father- the "Word" as in John 1 So Jesus was resurrected with a body, right? What happened to his body? Does it really exist in a location while his intelligence and influence fills the immensity of space? That is what we believe. He still has his body which is resurrected but he knows every thought in your heart because he communicates through the Holy Ghost and the light of Christ. Imagine the sun. It is in a definite location but it's influence and light fills the solar system. That is a poor analogy but perhaps it will help. God's influence fills the universe, of course, not just our solar system. Cool, I think we converge on the important things. Also, not a bad analogy, it makes sense. That was the image I had in my mind when a previous poster shared some passages from the D&C. I'm certain that if you put 100 Evangelicals in a room, there would be 100 different opinions on how Christ is connected to us, especially if you started drilling down into more and more detail I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were pretty close to how you just described it.
RockHopper Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 By the way, can anyone tell me how to edit a previous post. I can't find any button or link to do it, but I see that other posters are able to edit their posts later. Thanks for any help.
cdowis Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, RockHopper said: Thanks for the comments, sadly, I'm not sure I really understand. So do you believe that Jesus knows your thoughts and deeds, that He hears your prayers? Do you believe He dwells in our hearts through the Holy Ghost? What I mean is, do you believe that there is a mystical/spiritual connection to Christ, through the Holy Ghost, so that Christ dwells in our hearts? I'm not looking for a detailed description of the mechanics, or of heavenly bodies/forms, etc.. What I'm hoping is that we arrive at the same conclusion: that we have an intimate connection with Jesus through the Holy Ghost, and that our intimate connection with Christ, draws us to the Father. I say "yes and no" because you are thinking like a theologian == how many angels can stand on the head of a pin, sort of thing, while missing the whole issue of "what is an angel". I don't think you are going to understand until you confront the issue of "who is Christ and what is the nature of His relationship with the Father". To indicate how little this is understood by the theologians is found in some of Christ's statements which hint at profound truths, such as "Not my will but thy will be done", also John 5 [19] Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. Heb 5 [8] Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; [9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Heb 1 [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Edited January 11, 2018 by cdowis
Gray Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 20 hours ago, Josh Khinder said: This picture distinguishes the Mormon Jesus versus Mormon Christ Your characterization of Mormon views of Jesus is way off. 1
Tacenda Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: I have already enumerated some disagreements, and you were unwilling to read actual biblical texts in order to understand them on real Mormon doctrine -- instead of the phony doctrine which you claimed Mormons believe. If you want to know what Mormons believe and preach, you have only to ask. I quoted the terms you used, and you can go back and have another look at them, if you wish, Josh. You clearly have no idea what those terms mean, and are using them as magical incantations. It is a world which is open to understanding, but you will have to jettison your false pagan evangelical beliefs in order to get there. Then what did they teach Robert, because you can't deny some of what Josh has put forth has been taught. But I guess a new prophet trumps an old one. And this is the crux of the matter, we can't nail our doctrine on the wall, it's like jello, it won't hold long before another doctrine has been changed to mean something else. So how do we know which is from God, because God is neverchanging according to scripture. James 1:17New International Version (NIV) 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
Anakin7 Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) RockHopper, From my LDS Sentinel Son Of Thunder Kryptonian Archives - http://www.evangelicalsandmormonsforjesus.com The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin LDS Sentinel Son Of Thunder Kryptonian Edited January 11, 2018 by Anakin7
CV75 Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 On 1/9/2018 at 11:56 PM, RockHopper said: Hi, I'm new to the forum. I'm an evangelical, but very LDS friendly :). And unlike many evangelicals, I'm hopeful, that despite our differences, we are worshiping the same God and doing our best to follow the same Lord and Savior. So with that all on the table, I'm very curious about how most Mormons view God, in the sense of His presence. In Acts 17:28 it says: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. What does this mean to most Mormons? Do they believe that the Father is all around us, that our very existence is tightly coupled with His presence? My view is that the Father is omnipresent and can see/hear everything. He knows our thoughts, He hears our prayers, He knows our motives and our deeds. And through the Father, His Son is also present in the same way. Thanks for any thoughts anyone would like to share. We are His offspring in two or three ways. One, Heavenly Father is the Father of our Spirits. Two, Jesus Christ is the Father of our spiritual rebirth. Three, we believe Jesus created the earth under the direction of the Father, and thus gave Adam and Eve their bodies, and we being their descendants, are ultimately God's offspring in the earth. We believe that the light of Christ fills the immensity of space, and is the power by which we live, move and have our being.
CV75 Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 On 1/10/2018 at 12:53 AM, RockHopper said: So His presence is all around us and through all things. That's sounds like the same God I believe in. Does this also include the presence of His Son? Meaning is Christ through His Father all around us, etc. I see their "presence" as a function of their power manifest by the conscious and purposeful expression of their their existence.
Bobbieaware Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 7 hours ago, RockHopper said: Thanks for sharing all that. I think we agree on much, but not on everything Good. So I have two questions for you: 1) What, if anything, do you find deficient or wanting in the LDS belief that if God is to be perfectly loving, just and merciful he has a sacred obligation to be sure that, eventually, every human being who has ever lived will have the opportunity to become thoroughly acquainted with the true gospel of Jesus Christ so that they can make a fully-informed decision as to whether or not they want to accept Christ and be saved? 2) What, if anything, do you find to be superior (superior to the above-described LDS teaching) to the belief that not all members of the human race will have the opportunity to have the gospel of Christ properly and thoroughly taught to them prior to the final judgement?
Calm Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 7 hours ago, RockHopper said: By the way, can anyone tell me how to edit a previous post. I can't find any button or link to do it, but I see that other posters are able to edit their posts later. Thanks for any help. 5 more posts and you can edit and start new threads 2
Josh Khinder Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 10 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Yes that is exactly right! Yes Christ knows all we think and speak and pray but does not have to "be" everywhere to do that. Imagine perfect ESP or something like that where our thoughts are instantly discernable to him, as the messenger of the Father- the "Word" as in John 1 So Jesus was resurrected with a body, right? What happened to his body? Does it really exist in a location while his intelligence and influence fills the immensity of space? That is what we believe. He still has his body which is resurrected but he knows every thought in your heart because he communicates through the Holy Ghost and the light of Christ. Imagine the sun. It is in a definite location but it's influence and light fills the solar system. That is a poor analogy but perhaps it will help. God's influence fills the universe, of course, not just our solar system. According to 1 Tim 2:5 Jesus went to heaven with a physical body.
Josh Khinder Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 4 hours ago, Gray said: Your characterization of Mormon views of Jesus is way off. Which area is it wrong ?
RockHopper Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 3 hours ago, Calm said: 5 more posts and you can edit and start new threads Thanks, now it will be 4 more
Gray Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 Just now, Josh Khinder said: Which area is it wrong ? "Created being" - not quite. There are no created beings in Mormon theology. Everyone always existed. "Had to earn salvation" - certainly I'm sure some church leaders have said that. It doesn't make it a Mormon belief. "Common and minor importance" - Completely false "Conceived by a physical act" - a 19th century belief that continued into the 20th century. Many Mormons don't believe it, and I don't think there is any "official" position today "A married polygamist." Another 19th century belief LDS doctrine is constantly evolving. It's not just whatever radical things you can find that Brigham Young said. 2
Tacenda Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 17 minutes ago, Gray said: "Created being" - not quite. There are no created beings in Mormon theology. Everyone always existed. "Had to earn salvation" - certainly I'm sure some church leaders have said that. It doesn't make it a Mormon belief. "Common and minor importance" - Completely false "Conceived by a physical act" - a 19th century belief that continued into the 20th century. Many Mormons don't believe it, and I don't think there is any "official" position today "A married polygamist." Another 19th century belief LDS doctrine is constantly evolving. It's not just whatever radical things you can find that Brigham Young said. (bold mine) So true and I need to do a better job of not regurgitating the past. Just like the Bible and it's teachings and how they are not even possible to live up to such as women must have long hair or women must not pray in public. Of course these came from men and maybe I'm taking them out of context. I'll work on concentrating on the here and now. Because such as myself with my parenting style, I would not do several things I did in the beginning with my first child etc. now if I had to do it all over again.
RockHopper Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 4 hours ago, cdowis said: I say "yes and no" because you are thinking like a theologian == how many angels can stand on the head of a pin, sort of thing, while missing the whole issue of "what is an angel". I don't think you are going to understand until you confront the issue of "who is Christ and what is the nature of His relationship with the Father". To indicate how little this is understood by the theologians is found in some of Christ's statements which hint at profound truths, such as "Not my will but thy will be done", also John 5 [19] Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. Heb 5 [8] Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; [9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Heb 1 [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Hey cdowis, Rather than missing the issue, I think I'm trying to skirt it a little. I'm certain that my view of "who is Christ and what is the nature of His relationship with the Father", does not align 100% with LDS doctrine. Nor does my view align 100% with most Evangelicals view of the Trinity. But, maybe that's OK, at least on my end. My goal is to understand the domain of who might be my brothers and sisters, regardless of whether they acknowledge me or not. I'm more than happy to read other's thoughts or share my perspective, but I'm not here to debate the issue.
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