What makes Mormonism work?

[CV75]

23 hours ago, poptart said:

Protestantism is crumbling, the old religions are making a comeback and while people look at the evangelicals success they never take into account how scandal makes them a rather unstable group growth wise.  Honestly thr remind me of the mongols of the religous world, the show up in huge numbers,  do theit thing but as soon as theres some shake up they either loose their punch or disintegrate. Meanwhile I notice the LDS are the only ones besides the Catholic church still in the game sustainability wise. The meeting houses are pleasing to look at and the temples, while not as inspiring as say a cathedral (i think)  are still a marvel to look at.  

The families are stable, they tend to be wealhy and you've done so well rome let you build a temple in their back yard.  Granted it was kind of on the outskirts but still, that's impressive.  I'm curious, what organizational model, what power mechanism/base, what kind of teeth/discipline does the church have that makes it such a legit power of the land now?  I'm not only more curious than ever, I  genuinely admire the churches power and might. 

I think “being in the game” is not necessarily a numbers game. 1 Nephi 14 talks about the Church’s “power and might” in terms of quality, not quantity: “And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few …and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small …And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.”

In 1 Nephi 22, we read that God “will preserve the righteous by his power, even if it so be that the fulness of his wrath must come, and the righteous be preserved, even unto the destruction of their enemies by fire. Wherefore, the righteous need not fear; for thus saith the prophet, they shall be saved, even if it so be as by fire. …For behold, the righteous shall not perish; for the time surely must come that all they who fight against Zion shall be cut off. And the Lord will surely prepare a way for his people… And the righteous need not fear, for they are those who shall not be confounded. But it is the kingdom of the devil, which shall be built up among the children of men, which kingdom is established among them which are in the flesh— …And he gathereth his children from the four quarters of the earth; and he numbereth his sheep, and they know him; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd; and he shall feed his sheep, and in him they shall find pasture.”

And speaking to your point about other "churches" (which refers to both religious and secular organizations, assemblies, associations, etc.): “…the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world, and those who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity; yea, in fine, all those who belong to the kingdom of the devil are they who need fear, and tremble, and quake; they are those who must be brought low in the dust; they are those who must be consumed as stubble; and this is according to the words of the prophet.”

Some key points that I picked out: “the power of the Lamb of God” (the priesthood) “descended” (was restored, committed and conferred) “upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord (look at the several covenants from baptism to temple and what we are to do)”, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness (faith and obedience) and with the power of God (faith, covenants and priesthood) in great glory.” I believe this is what the Church has.

[Eek!]

Things that come to mind as possible contributors to the success of Mormonism:

1.  Something about Mormonism speaks to a lot of people, fills a need, rings true.   

2.  There are a whole lot of interesting concepts within Mormonism, and they are not too hard to dig up.

3.  Mormonism officially sanctions personal revelation, the Gift of the Holy Ghost being the first thing you're given after you're baptized.   

4.  Mormonism makes more concrete demands of its members than most Western religions, and cultivates the perception of its members being "chosen" or "special", which in turn inspires them to try to live up to higher standards.  Mormonism calls its members to play an active role in something much bigger than themselves, and Mormons do a good job of assisting their own.  Mormonism is arguably a stronger tribe than most Western tribes. 

5.  Mormonism has no paid clergy at most levels, so in general you can't make a living just off of being a good Mormon, and those few who are paid do not get rich off of it.  Also for the male members, being a priesthood holder is empowering. 

6.  Mormonism has an open canon, which leaves room for theoretical thinking outside the current box and gives reason to hope for change in the future.

7.  Mormonism has more room than most for both Iron Rodders and Liahonas.   Many Western religions lose their Liahonas, and a few are made up almost entirely of Liahonas.   Imo it is beneficial to have both. 

8.  Mormonism is more fair and equitable in many ways than most Western religions, and has better answers to hard questions than most (such as "what happens to people who die without being baptized?").

9. Mormonism flat out produces good people, whether or not they remain in the faith. 

This is not to say I don't wish for a few changes in Mormonism, but that would belong in a different thread. 

Edited January 4, 2018 by Eek!

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I strongly disagree with this assessment. A quick perusal of the history of Catholic Saints will show you some hefty results from genuine believers. Heck, I invite you to my parish so you can see the results of some genuine believers, from everything from personal spiritual practices to charitable work, from monetary giving (even though there is no required amount) to vocations (calls to the religious life).

Don't paint with too broad a brush, Mark

 

Sorry about that.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, poptart said:

Lol I was always accused of that by LDS friends.  My retort was let's see if a worthy priesthood holding family who' upper class would approve of me.  That was always followed by am I worthy, which was followed by easy To say that considering you're middle class and don't have my problems.  Until you can convince me otherwise you're doing little more than towing the party line for financial comfort and family, just like everyone else.  

God Mormons are tolerant lol, atleast I can be honest with them.

Don't understand what you are saying.

Where did I discuss wealth or classes?

What does that have to do with anything?

[RevTestament]

7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Yeah... first it was the Visigoths, then the Ostrogoths, the Huns, and the Vandals... now it's the Mormons. The barbarian hordes at the gates of Rome never cease

Hey, but unlike the first three horns plucked up by their roots, we won't be.... Maybe because we are more barbaric than those darn Arians who didn't even burn Rome! 

Look at the bright side... Rome hasn't had to worry about SDAs yet.

[poptart]

42 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Hey, but unlike the first three horns plucked up by their roots, we won't be.... Maybe because we are more barbaric than those darn Arians who didn't even burn Rome! 

Look at the bright side... Rome hasn't had to worry about SDAs yet.

Actually, Kaiser maxmillion kinda did....rome will repel even you, they are the eternal city lol. Tbh from what I've heard pope Francis really likes how LDS charities stepped up to do what many won't do in the USA anymore. 

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by poptart

[RevTestament]

On 1/3/2018 at 12:51 PM, poptart said:

Protestantism is crumbling, the old religions are making a comeback and while people look at the evangelicals success they never take into account how scandal makes them a rather unstable group growth wise.  Honestly thr remind me of the mongols of the religous world, the show up in huge numbers,  do theit thing but as soon as theres some shake up they either loose their punch or disintegrate. Meanwhile I notice the LDS are the only ones besides the Catholic church still in the game sustainability wise. The meeting houses are pleasing to look at and the temples, while not as inspiring as say a cathedral (i think)  are still a marvel to look at.  

The families are stable, they tend to be wealhy and you've done so well rome let you build a temple in their back yard.  Granted it was kind of on the outskirts but still, that's impressive.  I'm curious, what organizational model, what power mechanism/base, what kind of teeth/discipline does the church have that makes it such a legit power of the land now?  I'm not only more curious than ever, I  genuinely admire the churches power and might. 

If the Church has any power, it it because of the power of the Holy Spirit and the Lord. Don't give us too much credit, I feel the Church still tends to flop around a lot. We have had a lot of growth, but we are not the only ones. The SDAs have grown a little more than the LDS Church over about the same time period, but it seems they have recently been faltering. I'm not really sure about Protestants, although it is evident their numbers are down - especially in Europe over the last century. Certain branches of Protestantism such as Baptists still seem relatively strong.

Thanks for your compliments, but I will say I think the Church does not try to make the meeting houses too fancy. The emphasis is on practicality and plainness. The Church tries to make meeting houses something useful for ward social activities as well as Church meetings. I know for me growing up the social activities were an important aspect of living a healthy LDS Christian lifestyle, which I believe is an important aspect of desiring to live life as a LDS Christian, and providing some aspect of a refuge from the world. Another aspect of the organizational model is the Church's emphasis on giving callings to its members. Everyone can have a role in helping the Church be more welcoming and learning to grow in the "real life" gospel so to speak. This is quite different from the type of "spectator Christianity" involved in much of Protestantism in which people are hired to do the work and the teaching. Unfortunately, our society has changed somewhat so that spectators these days want to be entertained. Thus, a lot of churches have gone to full musical formats I think in response. While I think a fully musical service is fine every once in awhile, I have tried this type of service, and just felt like something was missing for me. I want to learn and be edified, and not just entertained at Church.

As for being "wealthy" I have known plenty of completely average and unwealthy LDS members - including myself. However, in the United States such members are still "wealthy" by world standards - such as our S. American members. Commentators such as Ben Shapiro have stated, I think fairly accurately, is all one has to do in the United States to be financially independent is be healthy, finish school, get a job, and get married and stay married. The vast majority of such people are going to be at least middle class. The Church's emphasis on family life and honest dealings are just going to play well in the economy. Employers want reliable, honest workers who show up and get the job done. That is just part of the LDS lifestyle. When a good percentage of the population has problems with drugs, alcohol, and family life, it just makes problems for employers, while most LDS Christians have maintained the American work ethic.

[poptart]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Don't understand what you are saying.

Where did I discuss wealth or classes?

What does that have to do with anything?

The appeal to emotion, the accusations of seeing something mostly from a scientific/psychological point of view.  To me that's a total copout.  Come up with a reasonable response that doesn' riek of the same nonsense so many other religious people here in the states throw at eachother. 

Not saying you'r like that, just saying that' what I tend to run into here stateside and why I regard many religious people here as a joke.

[poptart]

21 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

If the Church has any power, it it because of the power of the Holy Spirit and the Lord. Don't give us too much credit, I feel the Church still tends to flop around a lot. We have had a lot of growth, but we are not the only ones. The SDAs have grown a little more than the LDS Church over about the same time period, but it seems they have recently been faltering. I'm not really sure about Protestants, although it is evident their numbers are down - especially in Europe over the last century. Certain branches of Protestantism such as Baptists still seem relatively strong.

Thanks for your compliments, but I will say I think the Church does not try to make the meeting houses too fancy. The emphasis is on practicality and plainness. The Church tries to make meeting houses something useful for ward social activities as well as Church meetings. I know for me growing up the social activities were an important aspect of living a healthy LDS Christian lifestyle, which I believe is an important aspect of desiring to live life as a LDS Christian, and providing some aspect of a refuge from the world. Another aspect of the organizational model is the Church's emphasis on giving callings to its members. Everyone can have a role in helping the Church be more welcoming and learning to grow in the "real life" gospel so to speak. This is quite different from the type of "spectator Christianity" involved in much of Protestantism in which people are hired to do the work and the teaching. Unfortunately, our society has changed somewhat so that spectators these days want to be entertained. Thus, a lot of churches have gone to full musical formats I think in response. While I think a fully musical service is fine every once in awhile, I have tried this type of service, and just felt like something was missing for me. I want to learn and be edified, and not just entertained at Church.

As for being "wealthy" I have known plenty of completely average and unwealthy LDS members - including myself. However, in the United States such members are still "wealthy" by world standards - such as our S. American members. Commentators such as Ben Shapiro have stated, I think fairly accurately, is all one has to do in the United States to be financially independent is be healthy, finish school, get a job, and get married and stay married. The vast majority of such people are going to be at least middle class. The Church's emphasis on family life and honest dealings are just going to play well in the economy. Employers want reliable, honest workers who show up and get the job done. That is just part of the LDS lifestyle. When a good percentage of the population has problems with drugs, alcohol, and family life, it just makes problems for employers, while most LDS Christians have maintained the American work ethic.

Keep in mind, those who expect entertainment often treat religion as a tool for social advancement, I say it's better to have a small group of dedicated, honest people than hundreds of garbage people.  Look at the crystal cathedral and what it is now.

 

Also there we go people! This guy speaks my language! Hard work! Integrity!  Not being a lying backstabbing animal!  This guy right here has my attention.

Edited January 4, 2018 by poptart

[poptart]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think “being in the game” is not necessarily a numbers game. 1 Nephi 14 talks about the Church’s “power and might” in terms of quality, not quantity: “And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few …and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small …And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.”

 

In 1 Nephi 22, we read that God “will preserve the righteous by his power, even if it so be that the fulness of his wrath must come, and the righteous be preserved, even unto the destruction of their enemies by fire. Wherefore, the righteous need not fear; for thus saith the prophet, they shall be saved, even if it so be as by fire. …For behold, the righteous shall not perish; for the time surely must come that all they who fight against Zion shall be cut off. And the Lord will surely prepare a way for his people… And the righteous need not fear, for they are those who shall not be confounded. But it is the kingdom of the devil, which shall be built up among the children of men, which kingdom is established among them which are in the flesh— …And he gathereth his children from the four quarters of the earth; and he numbereth his sheep, and they know him; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd; and he shall feed his sheep, and in him they shall find pasture.”

 

And speaking to your point about other "churches" (which refers to both religious and secular organizations, assemblies, associations, etc.): “…the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world, and those who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity; yea, in fine, all those who belong to the kingdom of the devil are they who need fear, and tremble, and quake; they are those who must be brought low in the dust; they are those who must be consumed as stubble; and this is according to the words of the prophet.”

 

Some key points that I picked out: “the power of the Lamb of God” (the priesthood) “descended” (was restored, committed and conferred) “upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord (look at the several covenants from baptism to temple and what we are to do)”, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness (faith and obedience) and with the power of God (faith, covenants and priesthood) in great glory.” I believe this is what the Church has.

 

That doesn' translate to me at all....

[poptart]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

We are worse. They came with swords and bows. We come with something more insidious.......green jello salad with shredded carrots.

You forgot the cute elders who I wish would visit me more. 

 

No homo.

[CV75]

21 minutes ago, poptart said:

That doesn' translate to me at all....

Do you want to talk about it?

[Jane_Doe]

5 hours ago, poptart said:

Lol I was always accused of that by LDS friends.  My retort was let's see if a worthy priesthood holding family who' upper class would approve of me.  That was always followed by am I worthy, which was followed by easy To say that considering you're middle class and don't have my problems.  Until you can convince me otherwise you're doing little more than towing the party line for financial comfort and family, just like everyone else.  

God Mormons are tolerant lol, atleast I can be honest with them.

 

57 minutes ago, poptart said:

The appeal to emotion, the accusations of seeing something mostly from a scientific/psychological point of view.  To me that's a total copout.  Come up with a reasonable response that doesn' riek of the same nonsense so many other religious people here in the states throw at eachother. 

Not saying you'r like that, just saying that' what I tend to run into here stateside and why I regard many religious people here as a joke.

I'm a scientist.  And live weeeeeell below poverty line.  And don't receive any financial benefit from church.

 

 

 

[pogi]

"The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear; till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done" (Joseph Smith).

 

[poptart]

22 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

 

I'm a scientist.  And live weeeeeell below poverty line.  And don't receive any financial benefit from church.

 

 

 

Yeah well You're one of the cool ones.

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, poptart said:

Yeah well You're one of the cool ones.

Cool   Just wanted to remind you we exist

[Kenngo1969]

On 1/3/2018 at 7:59 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

While LDS faith and self-sacrifice are impressive, it just isn't enough.  God doesn't perform his tasks by sleight of hand and Mormons are not successful simply because God gives them the advantage.  Mormons obey the Law of the Harvest:  As you sow, so shall you reap.  We could have an expert in organizational behavior tell us the details of Mormon success, and sociologists and social anthropologists have written extensively on the subject.  When Mormons and other groups are successful, one can find specific secular reasons for that success.  A number of non-Mormon scholars have spent years evaluating the Mormons, and their conclusions are readily available:

Thomas F. O'Dea, The Mormons (Univ. of Chicago Press, 1957).  O'Dea was a Roman Catholic scholar.

Jan Shipps, Mormonism: The Story of a New Religious Tradition (Univ of Illinois Press, 1987).  Shipps is a Methodist scholar.

 

23 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

To a large degree, yes, you're right.  On the other hand, if such secular underpinnings of success were not themselves undergirded by a sure spiritual foundation, I doubt that the fruits of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints could long endure.  (See Matthew 7:16-20, Matthew 7:24-27, Helaman 5:12).  I'm also reminded of Gamaliel's counsel to the Sanhedrin after Peter and John were arrested: "Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to naught.  But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest [perhaps] ye be found to fight against God" (Acts 5:38-39; see vv. 34-42).  I'm reminded of an account given by one of my mission presidents, who told of officials from the U.S. military's Defense Language Institute who were amazed at how the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is able to achieve such a high degree of foreign language proficiency among young missionaries in so short a time.  The Church's response, essentially, was, "Sure, you can come and observe what we do ... but it won't work for you."  

 

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I don't agree.  ...

Agree to disagree, agreeably, then. 

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, poptart said:

Yeah well You're one of the cool ones.

Oooo ooooo, I wanna be poor too so I can be cool!

This is a very strange world being presented here..... 

[The Nehor]

On 1/4/2018 at 4:23 PM, poptart said:

Keep in mind, those who expect entertainment often treat religion as a tool for social advancement, I say it's better to have a small group of dedicated, honest people than hundreds of garbage people.  Look at the crystal cathedral and what it is now.

 

Also there we go people! This guy speaks my language! Hard work! Integrity!  Not being a lying backstabbing animal!  This guy right here has my attention.

We are all garbage people.

Hence the need for redemption.

Some are more garbagey than others.  

Edited January 6, 2018 by The Nehor

[poptart]

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

We are all garbage people.

Hence the need for redemption.

Some are more garbagey than others.  

Umm, no not quite.  We all eventually get to a point where regardless of how we grew up we have a choice to make.  Sure, we have indiscretions here and there but it's at the core that matters, and most chose to become rotten garbage.  Look at the out of wedlock birth rate, divorce rate and all the other horrible things in our society.  What's worse, the garbage people keep compounding the problem causing needless suffering.  Honestly, half the reason why I like the board and as a rule the LDS faithful, in whatever way they can they try to make a difference.  Even if it's just taking their kids to school and being a parent, hey that's something.