Homosexuality: 1981 Handbook for priesthood leaders

[california boy]

5 hours ago, kiwi57 said:

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. It kind of goes without saying that believing Latter-day Saints will disagree.

And not only does your second assertion not follow from the first, neither of them follows from the evidence in view. I realise that that is what you would like to adduce from it - just as much as it is the thread originator's wish that everyone adduce that from it - but it is wrong.

Sorry.

You should be sorry because the evidence is written in black and white and it doesn't match what you want to believe.  Church leaders did not make their decisions based on revealed knowledge from God.  That is indisputable.

I was one of those believing Latter-day Saints.  If I had not have been, I would not have put my trust in the claims made by those who told us all that they received revelation from God on this issue.

Edited December 16, 2017 by california boy

[Duncan]

5 minutes ago, california boy said:

Duncan, do you fully realize how that little ooops devastated so many peoples lives?  If they didn't have revealed knowledge from God, they should have never claimed such a revelation.  And how can anyone trust that the decisions being made today are not made in the exact same way.  

100% of blame can't point to the Church, the Church didn't decide people are gay, tell them who to marry, tell them to tell or not tell the bride or groom they are gay. At some point we have to own up to our own drama and see how much we contributed to it. I felt duped into getting married and it failed but at some point you just have to own up to how much of it was mine and how much was other's, but it isn't all of one factor

[ALarson]

27 minutes ago, Duncan said:

it's from 1981, I don't see how God can't reveal more later

Of course God can build on truths that he's given.  However, he does not reveal more or built upon untruths which this pamphlet contains.  That is evidence they did not come from God.  

The result is that we are left not knowing if the teachings today regarding gays are from God or are incorrect just as the teachings were back in 1981 from our leaders.  We each need to do our own searching and receive our own inspiration.

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Of course God can build on truths that he's given.  However, he does not reveal more or built upon untruths which this pamphlet contains.  That is evidence they did not come from God.  

The result is that we are left not knowing if the teachings today regarding gays are from God or are incorrect just as the teachings were back in 1981 from our leaders.  We each need to do our own searching and receive our own inspiration.

exactley some Bishop or Stake President can counsel some member but it's up to them to do what they will with the information, the Bishop doesn't make decisions for others

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

exactley some Bishop or Stake President can counsel some member but it's up to them to do what they will with the information, the Bishop doesn't make decisions for others

Duncan, when a member has questions..needs to talk.or asks for help...who is the first person he turns to?  Who is it that he/she will listen to first?  This is getting kind of scary. For many, thinking on their own is out of the question...inspiration comes from those leaders...from top to bottom.  When they think on their own or seek a certain revelation for themselves..they are called apostates or if not that..therre is a certain shame and fear.  If being taught of something called revelation..but is not...it can change the whole course of their lives and the very essence of how they feel about themselves.  California Boy's life isn't just an example..it is a fact.  No bishop can know that.

[Vanguard]

9 hours ago, california boy said:

No worst bingo hall ever is the one that tells you something is true when it isn't.  And you trust them.  The cost can be 30 years of your life doing something you should have never done.  

As is usually the case, this type of thread progresses at too quick a pace to keep up with! I've perused the entirety of the thread as well as the link provided by the "opie".  At great risk of sounding facetious and obtuse, can you specify (as I'm sure you already have!) for me what the leadership said was true that really isn't as it pertain to this topic? To the extent possible, please include your sources.

[california boy]

33 minutes ago, Duncan said:

100% of blame can't point to the Church, the Church didn't decide people are gay, tell them who to marry, tell them to tell or not tell the bride or groom they are gay. At some point we have to own up to our own drama and see how much we contributed to it. I felt duped into getting married and it failed but at some point you just have to own up to how much of it was mine and how much was other's, but it isn't all of one factor

I don't blame the church for what it didn't do.  I blame the church for what it DID do.  And telling young gay men that if they just married a woman they would no longer be gay is something that was so wrong.  That false promised which they claimed came from revelation was so grievously wrong and caused so many people who trusted church leaders to live a life that rarely ended well.  Don't you think that the church should be held accountable for that?

And believe me, I also blame myself for putting my trust in church leaders and the claims they made. I fully admit that I was a young naive return missionary that sincerely wanted to do the will of God.  I trusted those who claim to know the will of God.   I will NEVER EVER do that again. 

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

it's from 1981, I don't see how God can't reveal more later

But why would God "reveal" something that is wrong only so He could correct it later? Sounds like a jerky God at best, a disorganized and capricious God at worst.

No, these are the philosophies of men masquerading as revelation. Thou shalt not take the name of God in vain takes on a more substantial meaning when it is considered in context of people a- claiming God's authority or b- claiming God's words when they really aren't God's words.

[california boy]

46 minutes ago, Duncan said:

exactley some Bishop or Stake President can counsel some member but it's up to them to do what they will with the information, the Bishop doesn't make decisions for others

Do you think there is a difference between counseling members and telling members that what they are saying came by revelation?  

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

100% of blame can't point to the Church, the Church didn't decide people are gay, tell them who to marry, tell them to tell or not tell the bride or groom they are gay. At some point we have to own up to our own drama and see how much we contributed to it. I felt duped into getting married and it failed but at some point you just have to own up to how much of it was mine and how much was other's, but it isn't all of one factor

Yikes, Duncan.

First, being gay isn't "drama". Second, the church absolutely deserves 100% of the blame for the false statements, promises, and doctrines it has taught in the name of God, only to be shown erroneous. No individual should accept blame for being deceived. The only thing they are guilty of is trusting the church too much and placing faith in men who claim to be oracles of God.

Edited December 16, 2017 by HappyJackWagon

[california boy]

13 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

As is usually the case, this type of thread progresses at too quick a pace to keep up with! I've perused the entirety of the thread as well as the link provided by the "opie".  At great risk of sounding facetious and obtuse, can you specify (as I'm sure you already have!) for me what the leadership said was true that really isn't as it pertain to this topic? To the extent possible, please include your sources.

Honestly?  Just about everything. I specifically quoted directly some of the most egregious assertions from the pamphlet on page 2 of this thread.  But by far, the worst part of what the church did is in telling gay men that if they just married a woman, if they just prayed enough, if they just wanted it enough, then they would become heterosexual and no longer gay.  They claimed that promise by revelation.  Those faithful members that so wanted to put their trust in God and follow that promise are the ones whose lives will never be the same.

This is not just an issue from 1981.  What makes anyone believe that in 2017 church leaders claim of revelation on how to deal with gays is any more true today?   

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

it's from 1981, I don't see how God can't reveal more later

"reveal more"?  Is there something in this 1981 doc that seems like a revelation?

I agree that God certainly can reveal something regarding homosexuality (I'm not sure that He's done that yet.)  But I don't understand your premise that the prophet and apostles apparently fell victim to faulty research and science of their day and that it is all part of God's plan that they promulgate falsehoods under their titles as prophets and apostles.

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

This is what is so deceptive of church policy.  Think of the thousands of lives their false promise they made in the name of God has caused.  Not only was I victimized by putting my trust in church leaders, but also the countless women who had to go through. a marriage that was based on that false promise.  Much to my sorrow, to this day my ex-wife lives alone because of the assertion that the advice given by church leaders was claimed to have come by revelation.  It turns out that the false claim of revelation came from the group of scientist that could not have been further wrong in their beliefs.  And let's be clear about this.  While there were some sciences that thought a person became gay because of how parents raised them and they caught it by masterbating, not ALL scientist thought this even in 1981.  Church leaders just chose scientists that they guessed were the ones closest to what they WANTED to believe.  And then they claimed their decision was based on revelation.  So sad.  I am the face of the tragedy of that trust.  Daniel is the face of the tragedy of that trust.  But make no mistake, thousands unnamed are also victims.  Does anyone think that the church will ever apologize for the harm they have caused their most faithful members that were willing to entrust their entire lives with that claim of revelation?

Many thousands of unnamed victims...

I personally know a young man who was absolutely convinced that his homosexual orientation was his fault for masturbating.  He *knew* it because that's what the church taught.  He was also suicidal because of it.

And I know a father of a gay young man who was convinced that it was his son's "same gender attraction" was his (the father's fault) for being gone too much when the son was young.  This was just a few years ago and the father was a bishop at the time.

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

100% of blame can't point to the Church, the Church didn't decide people are gay, tell them who to marry, tell them to tell or not tell the bride or groom they are gay. At some point we have to own up to our own drama and see how much we contributed to it. I felt duped into getting married and it failed but at some point you just have to own up to how much of it was mine and how much was other's, but it isn't all of one factor

It's not really about blame.  But, I definitely do not put 100% of the blame on the Church.  I am opposed to people assigning 0% of the blame to the church.  Repentance can't happen until the mistake is recognized.

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

exactley some Bishop or Stake President can counsel some member but it's up to them to do what they will with the information, the Bishop doesn't make decisions for others

Then we need our church leaders to stop promoting the idea that there is safety in simply following your priesthood leaders.

[CA Steve]

I wonder how much God cares about the distinctions between policy and doctrine?

[Jeanne]

11 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I wonder how much God cares about the distinctions between policy and doctrine?

Probably not  a whole lot...but if it is drilled and taught ...it is same difference to the members of the church...the big lie is that policy or doctrine is revelation.  If God doesn't care about the difference..then He did not reveal it.

[california boy]

26 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Many thousands of unnamed victims...

I personally know a young man who was absolutely convinced that his homosexual orientation was his fault for masturbating.  He *knew* it because that's what the church taught.  He was also suicidal because of it.

And I know a father of a gay young man who was convinced that it was his son's "same gender attraction" was his (the father's fault) for being gone too much when the son was young.  This was just a few years ago and the father was a bishop at the time.

These are the very real sad stories about real people who trusted that what the church leaders were telling them came from revelation.

[california boy]

18 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I wonder how much God cares about the distinctions between policy and doctrine?

I wonder how much God reveals.  Clearly less than what church leaders claim.

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Duncan, when a member has questions..needs to talk.or asks for help...who is the first person he turns to?  Who is it that he/she will listen to first?  This is getting kind of scary. For many, thinking on their own is out of the question...inspiration comes from those leaders...from top to bottom.  When they think on their own or seek a certain revelation for themselves..they are called apostates or if not that..therre is a certain shame and fear.  If being taught of something called revelation..but is not...it can change the whole course of their lives and the very essence of how they feel about themselves.  California Boy's life isn't just an example..it is a fact.  No bishop can know that.

family, friends? you make your own decisions, Bishops don't make your life decisions. We take all the info we get and make our own decisions, that's been in the DC since this whole thing began

[Duncan]

Just now, california boy said:

I wonder how much God reveals.  Clearly less than what church leaders claim.

some people say he doesn't reveal anything

[Duncan]

25 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Then we need our church leaders to stop promoting the idea that there is safety in simply following your priesthood leaders.

do you think all advice is of the same value? aren't we supposed to get our own inspiration?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

  This is getting kind of scary. For many, thinking on their own is out of the question...

Define "many"  If you mean a high percentage of members in constrast to nonmembers, I find this ridiculous and out of touch with reality.  There may be small pockets of communities and probably a number of families who have taught their children to think that way because of family dynamics...but I bet in most cases it is in action translated into don't question the authority and inspiration of the parent while s/he tells you what church leaders are teaching (which may have little to do with what is actually being said).  

[Scott Lloyd]

19 hours ago, rockpond said:

I wouldn't have anticipated you being convinced even if I had been able to produce the amicus brief.  I'm confident you would have found a way to excuse it as not representing the church or find another meaning to it.  So, no worries.

Everyone else is welcome to believe or dismiss my recollection of what was happening at the time in my home state.

I'm open to persuasive argumentation based on sound logic and reasoning.

But that's really beside the point, which is this: If  you are unwilling or incapable of documenting the alleged involvement of the Church of Jesus Christ in Romer v Evans, your citation of said alleged involvement as an argument in support of your position against the Church is devoid of credibility. 

[Jeanne]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Define "many"  If you mean a high percentage of members in constrast to nonmembers, I find this ridiculous and out of touch with reality.  There may be small pockets of communities and probably a number of families who have taught their children to think that way because of family dynamics...but I bet in most cases it is in action translated into don't question the authority and inspiration of the parent while s/he tells you what church leaders are teaching (which may have little to do with what is actually being said).  

Okay...take out many and insert some....