The Commandments and Christ

[Meerkat]

Do Latter-day Saints and those of other faiths here share a similar view on these topics:

1.  Why did God give us Commandments, and promises as incentives for keeping them? (Sometimes called Principles with Promises.)

2.  Why did Jesus instruct us to " Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."  Matt 5:48

3.  What kind of effort does God expect us to make in response to Christ's teachings?

Please share your insights.  Thanks!

Edited November 27, 2017 by Meerkat

[CV75]

6 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Do Latter-day Saints and those of other faiths here share a similar view on these topics:

1.  Why did God give us Commandments, and promises as incentives for keeping them? (Sometimes called Principles with Promises.)

2.  Why did Jesus instruct us to " Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."  Matt 5:48

3.  What kind of effort does God expect us to make in response to Christ's teachings?

Please share your insights.  Thanks!

I think "love" answers all three -- it is the "why" for #1 and #2, and the "what" for #3. I think John 17 pulls all these ideas together.

[Meerkat]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think "love" answers all three -- it is the "why" for #1 and #2, and the "what" for #3. I think John 17 pulls all these ideas together.

When I learned for myself that God lives, and that Jesus knew me personally and loved me, I asked my roommates If they had this knowledge.  To a man, they said "Yes.  We know Jesus Christ, and we believe in Him."

Incredulous, I said "I've been looking for this my whole life.  We've lived in this house together for over a year.  Why have you not told me about this?"

They said "It's such a personal thing, you have to discover it for yourself."

"If you are Christians," I asked, "then why are we living the way we are living and doing the things we are doing?"

"That's the beauty of it," I was told.  "We can have the life that we want and do pretty much anything.  As long as we believe, our sins are forgiven."

Now, CV75, I ask you, is that Love?  John 17 is a beautiful scripture.  It supports your thesis, as far as it goes.  Verses 2-3 "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
            3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

My roommates said they knew Jesus Christ.  We're they Saved?  I'm not suggesting that you or I pass judgment on them here.  I share that personal story to give context to my questions:

11 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Do Latter-day Saints and those of other faiths here share a similar view on these topics:

1.  Why did God give us Commandments, and promises as incentives for keeping them? (Sometimes called Principles with Promises.)

2.  Why did Jesus instruct us to " Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."  Matt 5:48

3.  What kind of effort does God expect us to make in response to Christ's teachings?

Please share your insights.  Thanks!

Is belief all that God requires to dwell where He dwells?  Is that what God's love means?

Edited November 27, 2017 by Meerkat

[CV75]

1 minute ago, Meerkat said:

When I learned for myself that God lives, and that Jesus knew me personally and loved me, I asked my roommates If they had this knowledge.  To a man, they said "Yes.  We know Jesus Christ, and we believe in Him."

Incredulous, I said "I've been looking for this my whole life.  We've lived in this house together for over a year.  Why have you not told me about this?"

They said "It's such a personal thing, you have to discover it for yourself."

"If you are Christians," I asked, "then why are we living the way we are living and doing the things we are doing?"

"That's the beauty of it," I was told.  "We can have the life that we want and do pretty much anything.  As long as we believe, our sins are forgiven."

Now, CV75, I ask you, is that Love?  John 17 is a beautiful scripture.  It supports your thesis, as far as it goes.  Verses 2-3 "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
            3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

My roommates said they knew Jesus Christ.  We're they Saved?  I'm not suggesting that you or I pass judgment on them here.  I share that personal story to give context to my questions:

Is belief all that God requires to dwell where He dwells?  Is that what you mean by "love?"

1.  God gave us Commandments, and promises as incentives for keeping them because He loves us and wants us to love Him too (Moses 7:33, "I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father").

2.  Jesus instructed us to "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect,"  for the same reason.

3.  God expects us to exercise faith, hope and charity in response to Christ's teachings (D&C 88:40, 125).

So I see love as the common denominator. Everyone has to start somewhere!

[FormerLDS]

17 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Do Latter-day Saints and those of other faiths here share a similar view on these topics:

1.  Why did God give us Commandments, and promises as incentives for keeping them? (Sometimes called Principles with Promises.)

2.  Why did Jesus instruct us to " Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."  Matt 5:48

3.  What kind of effort does God expect us to make in response to Christ's teachings?

Please share your insights.  Thanks!

Depends on why you obey the commandments.

Do you obey the commandments because you hope to obtain eternal life?

Or do you obey the commandments because you already have eternal life?

[longview]

23 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Do you obey the commandments because you hope to obtain eternal life?

Yes, this is the PURPOSE for this "vale of tears."  The implementation for the Plan of Salvation.  Helping us to BECOME like Him.

28 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Or do you obey the commandments because you already have eternal life?

Then why go through with this grievous process?

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, FormerLDS said:

Depends on why you obey the commandments.

Do you obey the commandments because you hope to obtain eternal life?

Or do you obey the commandments because you already have eternal life?

I obey the Commandments because doing so brings me peace and joy.  My hope is in Christ.  I believe the Scriptures which state: " For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." 1 Cor. 15:22.  But I don't believe God holds it against a person who keeps the Commandments, but is weak in their faith.  Do you?  Faith is a gift.  Not all have it.  I recall the Centurion on Mark 9 "23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
            24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."  The Lord responded.  My belief is that if a person obeys out of duty, or desire to do right, they will be compensated fairly by a loving Heavenly Father, and particularly at the moment they cry out "Help thou mine unbelief." What are your thoughts?

[Meerkat]

3 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Depends on why you obey the commandments.

Do you obey the commandments because you hope to obtain eternal life?

Or do you obey the commandments because you already have eternal life?

Thanks for responding.  Help me understand what you mean by the way you phrased your question.  Does it make a difference why a person keeps the commandment? When God said "Honor they father and thy mother that thy days may be long in the land the Lord they God giveth thee" was the promise of long life conditional upon belief?  Or was it conditioned upon action?

We may be looking at this from different perspectives.  Why did God give us Commandments with promises? Why did the Lord tell us to be perfect? Do you feel God requires any effort beyond confessing Jesus as Lord of our lives?  I appreciate your response when you have a moment.  

[pogi]

14 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Depends on why you obey the commandments.

Do you obey the commandments because you hope to obtain eternal life?

Or do you obey the commandments because you already have eternal life?

Does it really matter, so long as we are doing what God wants?  

If I am obeying Jesus Christ, it is only because I believe in Him and accept him as my savior.

We both obey for the same reasons.  Any differences beyond that should be considered insignificant technicalities because the only thing that really matters in terms of salvation is belief and obedience. 

Edited November 28, 2017 by pogi

[FormerLDS]

On 11/28/2017 at 9:39 AM, pogi said:

Does it really matter, so long as we are doing what God wants?  

If I am obeying Jesus Christ, it is only because I believe in Him and accept him as my savior.

We both obey for the same reasons.  Any differences beyond that should be considered insignificant technicalities because the only thing that really matters in terms of salvation is belief and obedience. 

Would placing a ring on your finger make you married?

There are those who have eternal life and there are those who do not have eternal life.  It's that simple.

Do you honestly think the rejected of the savior in Matthew chapter 7 didn't think they were truly obeying Jesus Christ because they believed in Him and accepted Him as savior?  The cast out demons in the name of Jesus Christ.  They prophesied in the name of Jesus Christ.  They performed miraculous works greater than any Mormon who ever lived in the name of Jesus Christ.

Yet the Savior said to them "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity.  I never knew you." 

Read the Third Article of Faith and think about it: the real reason LDS Christians obey the commandments is because THEY WANT TO EARN ETERNAL LIFE.

[FormerLDS]

On 11/27/2017 at 9:02 PM, Meerkat said:

I obey the Commandments because doing so brings me peace and joy.  My hope is in Christ.  I believe the Scriptures which state: " For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." 1 Cor. 15:22.  But I don't believe God holds it against a person who keeps the Commandments, but is weak in their faith.  Do you?  Faith is a gift.  Not all have it.  I recall the Centurion on Mark 9 "23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
            24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."  The Lord responded.  My belief is that if a person obeys out of duty, or desire to do right, they will be compensated fairly by a loving Heavenly Father, and particularly at the moment they cry out "Help thou mine unbelief." What are your thoughts?

I think you missed my point (my fault).  

For clarity, the commandments of Jesus Christ are not intended for those who do not have eternal life, but for those who have eternal life.  For those whom the Savior knows (Matt 7).

There is only one commandment for those who do not have eternal life: Believe on Jesus Christ and receive eternal life today.

[theplains]

On 27/11/2017 at 1:47 PM, CV75 said:

1.  God gave us Commandments, and promises as incentives for keeping them because He loves us and wants us to love Him too (Moses 7:33, "I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father").

2.  Jesus instructed us to "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect,"  for the same reason.

3.  God expects us to exercise faith, hope and charity in response to Christ's teachings (D&C 88:40, 125).

The context of #2 is what Jesus said before in the chapter. It is not exaltation to godhood.  One can only
obey the commandments if you allow Christ to live through you.

Jim

[Anakin7]

     To all please read and ponder - http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/gospel-of-jesus.html    http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Did-Jesus-Intend.html 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Anakin7

[pogi]

2 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Would placing a ring on your finger make you married?

There are those who have eternal life and there are those who do not have eternal life.  It's that simple.

Do you honestly think the rejected of the savior in Matthew chapter 7 didn't think they were truly obeying Jesus Christ because they believed in Him and accepted Him as savior?  The cast out demons in the name of Jesus Christ.  They prophesied in the name of Jesus Christ.  They performed miraculous works greater than any Mormon who ever lived in the name of Jesus Christ.

Yet the Savior said to them "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity.  I never knew you." 

Read the Third Article of Faith and think about it: the real reason LDS Christians obey the commandments is because THEY WANT TO EARN ETERNAL LIFE.

Wait...what?

Are you comparing my belief and faith in Jesus Christ to a superficial wedding ring with no eternal covenant or all encompasing commitment to Him?  Have we met?

Are really you comparing me to the rejected of the Savior? As if you were Lord over me and judge of me!  Is it not the Lord who looks on my heart while you  are blind to the inner workings of my heart and judge me with man’s judgment - a superficial and unrighteous judgement?

It almost sounds like you are suggesting that I need to do something more than I am already doing to EARN salvation. But surely you are not suggesting that I need to DO anything more than believe and accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, right?

Edited November 30, 2017 by pogi

[Meerkat]

4 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

I think you missed my point (my fault).  

For clarity, the commandments of Jesus Christ are not intended for those who do not have eternal life, but for those who have eternal life.  For those whom the Savior knows (Matt 7).

There is only one commandment for those who do not have eternal life: Believe on Jesus Christ and receive eternal life today.

So one need only believe on Jesus Christ to receive eternal life? What does eternal life consist of, in your opinion? What is It's purpose?   What happens to a Jew after he dies, who knows not Christ, but was honest and obedient?  Does he have eternal life or something else? 

[Bernard Gui]

While living in Illinois, I was “tracked out” by a group of Evangelical young adults, and we got into this very discussion when I told them I was LDS. They claimed Mormons hope to earn salvation through good works but that really all we have to do is believe. They further said that if I do good works for that reason, God would condemn me for that. I asked if doing evil works would cause a believer to lose salvation, and they said no. So, I came to the conclusion, right or wrong, that we were talking past each other. To me, salvation is a free gift to all people from God through His Son...we are saved from death and hell. More is required, howeveer, for exaltation. They rejected the idea of exaltation. We parted friends, I think, even though I was consigned to hell for wanting to keep the commandments. I still don’t understand their argument, but maybe that’s because I’m not one of the elect.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Meerkat]

4 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Read the Third Article of Faith and think about it: the real reason LDS Christians obey the commandments is because THEY WANT TO EARN ETERNAL LIFE.

Thanks for engaging in this conversation.  Your comments do help illustrate the difference between LDS and non-LDS thinking.  There is a difference.  

This is the LDS third article of faith:

"3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

You read this differently than I do.  We embrace the Atonement of Jesus Christ.  We embrace the commandment to get baptized.  

Mormons also love the Savior, and obey out of love when He says "If he love me, keep my commandments."   We don't believe we can earn eternal life through that obedience.  Christ bought our Salvation.  But He does not penalize for obedience.  He wants us to obey.  So we try to.

C.S. Lewis said "Christians have often disputed as to what leads the Christian home is good actions, or faith in Christ.  I have no right to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking 'Which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary.'" He believed that salvation was in Christ, and that the "renovation of men and women's souls was the work of God, that person's who chose to come unto Christ were expected to be more than grateful and passive observers of the changes taking place within them."

I believe that also succinctly states a view that is embraced by LDS members.  Do we agree on this topic?

[CV75]

10 hours ago, theplains said:

The context of #2 is what Jesus said before in the chapter. It is not exaltation to godhood.  One can only
obey the commandments if you allow Christ to live through you.

Jim

The context of Matthew Chapter 5 is that He taught us the Beatitudes because He loves us, and since the Beatitudes are about showing love, He is instructing (and commanding) us on how to love as He does. The verses preceding verse 48 (beginning with verse 43) are quite specifically about love, but so are the rest of the verses in the chapter. In any case, the conclusion is that love and perfection go hand in hand. There are a number of scriptures that tie charity and grace together as necessary elements for keeping the commandments.

[Anakin7]

7 hours ago, Meerkat said:

So one need only believe on Jesus Christ to receive eternal life? What does eternal life consist of, in your opinion? What is It's purpose?   What happens to a Jew after he dies, who knows not Christ, but was honest and obedient?  Does he have eternal life or something else? 

       Believing and obeying are covenant family - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Love

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian

[JLHPROF]

7 hours ago, Meerkat said:

So one need only believe on Jesus Christ to receive eternal life? What does eternal life consist of, in your opinion? What is It's purpose?   What happens to a Jew after he dies, who knows not Christ, but was honest and obedient?  Does he have eternal life or something else? 

One only need accept Christ as Lord to receive eternal life (immortality).  That is why Christ could say none are lost but the sons of Perdition.  All other knees will be willing to bow and their tongues confess that Jesus is the Christ and will receive eternal life in some kingdom of glory.

[Anakin7]

On November 27, 2017 at 5:21 PM, FormerLDS said:

Depends on why you obey the commandments.

Do you obey the commandments because you hope to obtain eternal life?

Or do you obey the commandments because you already have eternal life?

  We do so by a True Grace empowered Love, Belief, Faith, Covenant of Obedience to The Lord of Life, Lord, Redeemer, Savior, God, King, Master Christ Jesus To stay in Eternal Life.   

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm    

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garments In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Anakin7

[Atheist Mormon]

On 11/28/2017 at 9:39 AM, pogi said:

Does it really matter, so long as we are doing what God wants?  

If I am obeying Jesus Christ, it is only because I believe in Him and accept him as my savior.

We both obey for the same reasons.  Any differences beyond that should be considered insignificant technicalities because the only thing that really matters in terms of salvation is belief and obedience. 

Hi Pogi...... You are one of my favorite posters here, I hope you won't misunderstand me when I ask;  how do we or will we know what God wants or asks. If sincerely I am seeking this enlightenment why didn't I receive an answer?

[Meerkat]

2 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

  We do so by a True Grace empowered Love, Belief, Faith, Covenant of Obedience to The Lord of Life, Lord, Redeemer, Savior, God, King, Master Christ Jesus To stay in Eternal Life.   

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm    

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garments In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian.

Anakin, I find substantial agreement with many of your references.  Thank you.

My wife and I were reading the Book of Mormon this morning and I thought this passage from Alma 6 supported what you are saying:

"2 And it came to pass that whosoever did not belong to the church who repented of their sins were baptized unto repentance, and were received into the church.
            3 And it also came to pass that whosoever did belong to the church that did not repent of their wickedness and humble themselves before God—I mean those who were lifted up in the pride of their hearts—the same were rejected, and their names were blotted out, that their names were not numbered among those of the righteous."

Believing in Christ appears to require more that confessing Christ.  There is a substantial component of obedience required.  I believe motivating desire to follow His teachings also helps.

What are YOUR thoughts about the following passage from 1 Corinthians 15?:

"20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
            21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
            22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

[Meerkat]

2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Hi Pogi...... You are one of my favorite posters here, I hope you won't misunderstand me when I ask;  how do we or will we know what God wants or asks. If sincerely I am seeking this enlightenment why didn't I receive an answer?

I also appreciate Pogi's insights.  I really like your question here, so hope It's okay if I chime in.  I believe God can respond differently, depending on the person and circumstances.  These are my opinions:

1.  Sometimes God responds quietly, in a still, small voice.  I believe that's because He doesn't want to override our agency and free choice:

"And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:
            And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
            And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?" 1 King's 19:11-13

2.  Sometimes the way we are living is so offensive to God and what we know we should be doing, we prevent the Holy Ghost from testifying to our hearts: 

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:17

3.  Sometimes, we give up too soon.  Look at the parable of the unjust judge and persistent widow:

"1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
            2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
            3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
            4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
            5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
            6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
            7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
            8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:1-8

4.  We seek to justify ourselves rather than do God's will:

"9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
            10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
            11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
            12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
            13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
            14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."  Luke 18:9-14

4.  There are tools God has given us to receive answers to our prayers, such as fasting.  When Jesus needed special help from God, He went out into the desert fasting.  There are other scriptures where God commands people to fast in behalf of others.  Still othets that show the results of fasting and prayer. 

I fasted and prayed to gain my own testimony as I read the Book of Mormon.  I also fasted and prayed for my wife.  The Lord answered that prayer too:

"Nevertheless the children of God were commanded that they should gather themselves together oft, and join in fasting and mighty prayer in behalf of the welfare of the souls of those who knew not God." Alma 6:6

And look at the success with fasting and prayer Alma and the Sons of Mosiah had:

"1 And now it came to pass that as Alma was journeying from the land of Gideon southward, away to the land of Manti, behold, to his astonishment, he met with the sons of Mosiah journeying towards the land of Zarahemla.
            2 Now these sons of Mosiah were with Alma at the time the angel first appeared unto him; therefore Alma did rejoice exceedingly to see his brethren; and what added more to his joy, they were still his brethren in the Lord; yea, and they had waxed strong in the knowledge of the truth; for they were men of a sound understanding and they had searched the scriptures diligently, that they might know the word of God.
            3 But this is not all; they had given themselves to much prayer, and fasting; therefore they had the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and when they taught, they taught with power and authority of God."

I can tell you, Athiest Mormon, it took me many many years to hear God speaking to me.  But I finally did, and I am so glad.  My life is full of joy and gratitude now, even when life is tough and I wish things could be different.  

May the Lord bless you, and each of us, as we try to do the right things.

[Meerkat]

16 hours ago, theplains said:

The context of #2 is what Jesus said before in the chapter. It is not exaltation to godhood.  One can only
obey the commandments if you allow Christ to live through you.

Jim

I agree that Christ in us helps us live the Commandments.  I also believe that trying to live them helps us gain and strengthen our testimony of the Savior:

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:17