The Commandments and Christ

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, FormerLDS said:

Friends, don't believe my words, believe in the words of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ said "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev 22:17)  Eternal life is not God's choice - it's our choice to take freely or not.

The Bible says eternal life is a gift (Romans 6:23).  What must you do to receive a gift?  Do you become an Olympian to receive a "gift"?  Do you pay a monthly payment for 30 years to receive a "gift"?  Do you have to give your money, your time, your talents or your life to receive a "gift"?  Or do you simply all it to be a gift and take it freely, just like it was intended? 

Regarding committing murder, if you committed murder, would you still be the child of your father?

You are avoiding the questions. 

[Anakin7]

18 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Take III: Your scripture reference is your opinion.  Like I said, I'm not trying to debate what you personally believe.

You claim that you believe LDS doctrine, so where does LDS doctrine state that you can "stay in eternal life" during mortality?

I'm sorry, but you really don't have a clue what your own church teaches...about it's single most important doctrine.

    The scriptures references and web links are not my opinion and belief alone but of other LDS Christians and non LDS Christians as well, I take it you did not read the links I posted that give an answer to every man woman including you . What I believe I have shared in the past with other LDS Professors, LDS Institute Directors, LDS Bishops, LDS Apologists, LDS Members and I have never been told that I am thinking heretical LDS Doctrine,Teaching,Thought. Staying in Eternal Life is conditional, not non conditional, we are not once saved always saved, Bible, Early Christian Leaders,  Apostolic Fathers do/did not teach such. We stay In Eternal Life on condition of True Grace that is accepted, accessed, activated, grabbed hold of, obtained, received, held on to by True Faith - pistis - allegiance, Commitment, confidence, devotion, discipleship, faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, obedience, trust in the person and work of Christ Jesus. Im sorry, but I do have a knowledge of what the LDS Church/Faith teaches ... about it's most important doctrine salvation soteriology. Thank you for caring, it is appreciated. May true Grace Be With You And Those you Love.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son of Thunder, Kryptonian

Edited December 2, 2017 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

19 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Jesus Christ plainly tells what the will of the Father is for those who do not have eternal life.

Perhaps you should investigate?

        To Believe in The One who is sent [Christ Jesus]. Believe which comes from the same root word in greek for Faith is an action word, not just saying it but follow through with Grace/HolyGhost/Spirit inspired labors of Love. We have investigated the original middle eastern Christian Biblical meaning, thank you for reminding us .

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7 

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian

Edited December 2, 2017 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

7 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Friends, don't believe my words, believe in the words of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ said "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev 22:17)  Eternal life is not God's choice - it's our choice to take freely or not.

The Bible says eternal life is a gift (Romans 6:23).  What must you do to receive a gift?  Do you become an Olympian to receive a "gift"?  Do you pay a monthly payment for 30 years to receive a "gift"?  Do you have to give your money, your time, your talents or your life to receive a "gift"?  Or do you simply all it to be a gift and take it freely, just like it was intended? 

Regarding committing murder, if you committed murder, would you still be the child of your father?

 My NIV Red Letter Bible has the Spirit and the Bride saying that not Jesus. The whosoever include those in verses 12 -15 who have washed there Robes [kept the commandments] in The blood of the Lamb to be shown they are worthy to accept the free gift of salvation, Hebrew 5:9.

  Scripture states that murderers have no eternal life within them, individuals can be disinherited and told I never knew you.

 The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

 Washing My Garment Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian

 

[Meerkat]

 

10 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

My thoughts?  I think Moroni's Promise is a satanic, demonic deception intended to trick people into trusting in a spooky feeling within their hearts rather than simply trusting in what God has already revealed in His word, the Bible.

I think one day, if you do not receive the free gift of eternal life Jesus Christ is offering you, you will unfortunately die and discover that the "Jesus Christ" you've been trusting in doesn't have any nail prints in his hands or his feet.

He is a false Christ.

Really?  You can say that after the many thoughtful responses to your posts.  It seems to me that you ignored what was being said (things that you may even agree with,) and went right to taking pot shots at peoples' cherished faith.  That's unfortunate.  I think we have much to learn from each other here if we will only reason together.  By "learn from each other, " I mean if you have truth, I benefit from your insight.  If I have truth, you benefit from mine.  It's most enjoyable to have discussions with people where we feel mutually respected and edified.  

Your reference to Matthew chapter 7 is insightful.  I have used that chapter to learn how to distinguish between a true and false prophet-- by their fruits.  I have used that chapter to learn the importance of prayer, and that "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?  Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."  Do unto others.  Is that your motto?

If I spoke to you the way you just spoke to me, would you feel the love?  Would you feel understood?  Would you feel I respected you as you respected me?  Would you want what I was offering?  Matthew 7 is a profound chapter.  Check out verses 1 through 5.  Good words to consider when when attempting to have an edifying discussion where your wisdom and influence may be needed and appreciated.  

Edited December 2, 2017 by Meerkat

[co-eternal]

On 11/27/2017 at 12:51 AM, Meerkat said:

Do Latter-day Saints and those of other faiths here share a similar view on these topics:

1.  Why did God give us Commandments, and promises as incentives for keeping them? (Sometimes called Principles with Promises.)

2.  Why did Jesus instruct us to " Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."  Matt 5:48

3.  What kind of effort does God expect us to make in response to Christ's teachings?

Please share your insights.  Thanks!

These are such amazing questions. On the surface they might appear to be the standard rhetorical SS questions but they have so many levels to them.  As such, I will attempt to provide the deepest answer I am capable of.

1)  Why did God give us Commandments, and promises as incentives for keeping them?

God did not sit down and create a list of commandments and promises, either as an individual or in some committee. What He did was to teach us the eternal laws of the sphere in which we live. He did not attach a promise to each commandment as an incentive. What he did was to teach us what the natural consequence is for a particular behavior. We have a will, the ability to make a choice and do something. But we are not free to until we know what the possible things to do that we can chose from and the results of doing that thing. Satan tells us a set of choices of things to do but he lies about the results of doing those things. God tells us what the results of Satan's list and gives us a list with better results. Now these results are more complex than they might appear, there are compound results, some more immediate and some more long term. The more immediate results are usually in terms of pleasure/pain, feel good/bad,  gratification/hollow. The long term results are more in terms of changing our nature, our attributes, increasing/decreasing good/bad characteristics. But there is another result as well, greater/lesser ability to increase/decrease our knowledge and understanding of eternal truths. This is important because we will remain in a sphere until we master the truths of that sphere. This opens up an understanding now of what damnation is, it just means that we are stopped from progressing until we change, we make choices that produce the results we need to master the truths of that  sphere allowing us to progress to the next.  Kinda deep, but that is what it is.

2) Why did Jesus instruct us to " Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Because that is literally what he expects of us. Are his expectations just too high, not all of us are capable of that? NO, we are capable of it, that is why he expects it of us. That is the goal and we are capable of it. But God and Christ are realistic in their expectations. We are all capable of perfection and we will all be given all the time we need to do it, as long as we don't become perdition. D&C sect 76 tells us that ALL are saved except perdition. Where ever we are on this path, how ever fast we are, as long as we are faced in the right direction we will perfect ourselves. Some may say well you gotta actually move along the path. And that is true, but getting pointed in the right direction is important. And progress in that direction is the next question.

3) What kind of effort does God expect us to make in response to Christ's teachings?

What ever you are capable of. He only expects us to do what we can. But it is by doing what we can our ability to do what we can increases.  If you only do part of what you can, your progress will be slower. But it is still progress. Now it is our nature that if we have a lot of time to not press so hard. And we do have all the time we want. You can lolly gag along at a snails pace or you can put some real effort into it. That is what is expected because that is what we can do. But the consequence of not butting forth your best effort is that your progress is not so fast. But it is your choice.

The goal is to perfect our selves. Why? So we can be Gods. Why would we want to be Gods? Because that is how we achieve the greatest Joy and fulfillment. The truth of the matter is that Christs love for us was NOT his only motivation for the Atonement. It provided for him the greatest joy and fulfillment that he had ever experience until then. It is what perfected him. That is what the scriptures tell us. And now he will go on and become a Father and do what His Father has done and he will experience even grater joy and fulfillment than what the  Atonement provided. And we are all greatly benefited   by that as well because helps us to perfect ourselves such that we can experience the great joys and fulfillment that the Father and the Son have.

I told you, these are not shallow questions. They are deep questions of the greatest importance and require appropriately deep and important answers.

 

[Meerkat]

41 minutes ago, co-eternal said:

These are such amazing questions. On the surface they might appear to be the standard rhetorical SS questions but they have so many levels to them.  As such, I will attempt to provide the deepest answer I am capable of.

1)  Why did God give us Commandments, and promises as incentives for keeping them?

God did not sit down and create a list of commandments and promises, either as an individual or in some committee. What He did was to teach us the eternal laws of the sphere in which we live. He did not attach a promise to each commandment as an incentive. What he did was to teach us what the natural consequence is for a particular behavior. We have a will, the ability to make a choice and do something. But we are not free to until we know what the possible things to do that we can chose from and the results of doing that thing. Satan tells us a set of choices of things to do but he lies about the results of doing those things. God tells us what the results of Satan's list and gives us a list with better results. Now these results are more complex than they might appear, there are compound results, some more immediate and some more long term. The more immediate results are usually in terms of pleasure/pain, feel good/bad,  gratification/hollow. The long term results are more in terms of changing our nature, our attributes, increasing/decreasing good/bad characteristics. But there is another result as well, greater/lesser ability to increase/decrease our knowledge and understanding of eternal truths. This is important because we will remain in a sphere until we master the truths of that sphere. This opens up an understanding now of what damnation is, it just means that we are stopped from progressing until we change, we make choices that produce the results we need to master the truths of that  sphere allowing us to progress to the next.  Kinda deep, but that is what it is.

2) Why did Jesus instruct us to " Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Because that is literally what he expects of us. Are his expectations just too high, not all of us are capable of that? NO, we are capable of it, that is why he expects it of us. That is the goal and we are capable of it. But God and Christ are realistic in their expectations. We are all capable of perfection and we will all be given all the time we need to do it, as long as we don't become perdition. D&C sect 76 tells us that ALL are saved except perdition. Where ever we are on this path, how ever fast we are, as long as we are faced in the right direction we will perfect ourselves. Some may say well you gotta actually move along the path. And that is true, but getting pointed in the right direction is important. And progress in that direction is the next question.

3) What kind of effort does God expect us to make in response to Christ's teachings?

What ever you are capable of. He only expects us to do what we can. But it is by doing what we can our ability to do what we can increases.  If you only do part of what you can, your progress will be slower. But it is still progress. Now it is our nature that if we have a lot of time to not press so hard. And we do have all the time we want. You can lolly gag along at a snails pace or you can put some real effort into it. That is what is expected because that is what we can do. But the consequence of not butting forth your best effort is that your progress is not so fast. But it is your choice.

The goal is to perfect our selves. Why? So we can be Gods. Why would we want to be Gods? Because that is how we achieve the greatest Joy and fulfillment. The truth of the matter is that Christs love for us was NOT his only motivation for the Atonement. It provided for him the greatest joy and fulfillment that he had ever experience until then. It is what perfected him. That is what the scriptures tell us. And now he will go on and become a Father and do what His Father has done and he will experience even grater joy and fulfillment than what the  Atonement provided. And we are all greatly benefited   by that as well because helps us to perfect ourselves such that we can experience the great joys and fulfillment that the Father and the Son have.  

I told you, these are not shallow questions. They are deep questions of the greatest importance and require appropriately deep and important answers.

 

Thank you for the time and thought you put into your response.  It was great.  There is a lot I don't know about the future.  It seems reasonable to me, based on 1 John 3:1-3 that we may someday be as God is.  But I don't know for sure.  I know this: since Christ came into my life, I have been happy whereas before I was a sinner with the attendant guilt and sorrow.  I believe in Jesus Christ because the burden I carried has been lifted from my shoulders based on my repentance, and replaced with joy and gratitude.  It was real and has been long lasting, over 45 years now.  Because that part of the Atonement is real, I know it and I have experienced it, I have strong faith that Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead, hence my future will include a glorified and perfected body.  I also believe the other promises found in the scriptures.  That's what I believe, and I live as though that is my ultimate future.  But honestly, however my future turns out, my life has been more than I deserve and I will die a happy and grateful man.  I do want to be reunited with my family again in eternity.  I don't aspire to more than that.  If God has something more in mind for me, who am I to turn Him down after all He has done for me.  But my only desire is to live in gratitude to God and maintain my joy by living the commandments and doing good to my fellow beings as I look forward to being reunited with my loved ones in eternity.

I see you are new on this board, kind of like me.  I look forward to more of your excellent posts!

Edited December 2, 2017 by Meerkat

[Anakin7]

Thank you for your Christlike and charitable posts co-eternal and meerkat,

The Atonement it is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian 

[co-eternal]

13 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Thank you for the time and thought you put into your response.  It was great.  There is a lot I don't know about the future.  It seems reasonable to me, based on 1 John 3:1-3 that we may someday be as God is.  But I don't know for sure.  I know this: since Christ came into my life, I have been happy whereas before I was a sinner with the attendant guilt and sorrow.  I believe in Jesus Christ because the burden I carried has been lifted from my shoulders based on my repentance, and replaced with joy and gratitude.  It was real and has been long lasting, over 45 years now.  Because that part of the Atonement is real, I know it and I have experienced it, I have strong faith that Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead, hence my future will include a glorified and perfected body.  I also believe the other promises found in the scriptures.  That's what I believe, and I live as though that is my ultimate future.  But honestly, however my future turns out, my life has been more than I deserve and I will die a happy and grateful man.  I do want to be reunited with my family again in eternity.  I don't aspire to more than that.  If God has something more in mind for me, who am I to turn Him down after all He has done for me.  But my only desire is to live in gratitude to God and maintain my joy by living the commandments and doing good to my fellow beings as I look forward to being reunited with my loved ones in eternity.

I see you are new on this board, kind of like me.  I look forward to more of your excellent posts!

Your faith touches me, ...  willing to be what God sees for you even if you don't see it.

I feel to pass on the you a few things that I have learned.

The women in my home returned from a women's conference where Elder and Sister Bednar just answered questions from the audience. In the answer to the question of how to develop a personal relationship with Christ, Elder Bednar's answer has really impacted me. He said "You don't understand, the only relationship you can have with the Savior is to be in complete and utter awe of who he is and what he has done." That has been a real pivot point for me.

Also, in Enos, we learn the true nature of Faith, Hope, and Charity.

Faith - I have come to believe the Christ is who he says he is, he has done what he says he did, and that he will do what he says he will do.

Hope - SInce I believe in him , I will do what he asks to the best I can in hopes that what he has and will do will apply to me.

Charity - Faith and Hope brings me so much that I wish to share that with others such that they may partake of Faith and Hope as I do.

 

[pogi]

On 11/30/2017 at 1:24 PM, FormerLDS said:

Those who do not have eternal life are the rejected of the savior.

You seem to get a disturbing kick out of mocking the damned.  Will you please just let us burn in peace!

[pogi]

On 11/30/2017 at 9:33 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

Hi Pogi...... You are one of my favorite posters here, I hope you won't misunderstand me when I ask;  how do we or will we know what God wants or asks. If sincerely I am seeking this enlightenment why didn't I receive an answer?

I appreciate the compliment, thanks Atheist Mormon!  Sorry for the late response.  I was out of town at a wonderful spiritual retreat and just got back last night.  

I have always struggled to answer this question for others.  I have come to the conclusion that I simply can't answer that very personal question for anyone but myself.  All that I know to do is share with you how the Lord has spoken to me, and importantly, how I have let myself see and hear the seed of the word of God (his voice), and feel that word growing deep in the soil of my heart as understanding grows.  Obviously I am referring to the parable of the sower.  The part of that parable that I have learned about the most over the last few years is the part where the savior says, "who hath ears to hear, let him hear."  I have come to understand that the act of letting ourselves hear may be more of an active long-term process than a single passive experience.  It is not something that just happens to us, but it is something that we have to continually allow to happen to us - which I have discovered in my own personal experience can be a terrifying experience of vulnerability and courage. 

I don't doubt the sincerity of your seeking and wanting to know, all I can do is encourage you to not give up on your quest to letting yourself hear.  I think about all of those who came to Jesus, sincerely seeking for truth, and sincerely wanting to know if he was Lord.  And yet, despite their sincerity, were not able to let themselves hear with their heart.  There were personal impediments...not from having the capacity to hear, but from allowing themselves to hear, for whatever reason.    

I have had to work through those impediments in my own personal life before I was able to hear, and thus allow the word of God to touch my heart.  I am still working through those impediments...lots of them!  Line upon line I allow my self to hear a little bit more by removing personal impediments to hearing.  No, I am not talking about sin (maybe sometimes), but more about personal inhibiting beliefs about myself and God.  These beliefs, I have found, have kept me from authenticity and intimacy with God and others - despite my sincere desire to connect and feel the Lord in my life.  I have been hiding as Adam in Eden, from the voice of the Lord.  The Lord called over and over..."Adam, where are you?"  I have discovered that the most terrifying act of faith that we can ever do is expose our naked selves in the light of God and his all seeing eye, and call out as Adam did, "here I am."   But that is exactly what it takes.  Though we may approach the Lord in our sincerity, our inhibiting beliefs, wounds, and masks may keep us in hiding, and subconsciously keep us unwilling to hear and heal.  Until we come out of hiding from behind our masks, we will never feel the light of the Lord on our naked skin though we call out to him.  That is the work of hearing!    "Here I am"   Only then can we hear the voice say, "Here I AM".

I can't say what your impediments to hearing might be, but the Lord has shown me mine as I have asked.  And that is what I would suggest, if you are sincerely willing to try and continue to hear the voice of the Lord in your hearth - ask the Lord to reveal to you your personal impediments to allowing yourself to hear.  What are the inhibiting beliefs in your heart?  What are the masks that you might subconsciously be wearing (we all wear them).  And be willing (once revealed) to do whatever it takes to work through those impediments until your heart is healed, and softened, and malleable enough for the Lord to write his word upon your heart.  For the word of the Lord is not written upon tablets of stone, but on the fleshy tablets of our hearts (2 Corinthians 3:3). 

Edited December 3, 2017 by pogi

[Atheist Mormon]

7 hours ago, pogi said:

I appreciate the compliment, thanks Atheist Mormon!  Sorry for the late response.  I was out of town at a wonderful spiritual retreat and just got back last night.  

I have always struggled to answer this question for others.  I have come to the conclusion that I simply can't answer that very personal question for anyone but myself.  All that I know to do is share with you how the Lord has spoken to me, and importantly, how I have let myself see and hear the seed of the word of God (his voice), and feel that word growing deep in the soil of my heart as understanding grows.  Obviously I am referring to the parable of the sower.  The part of that parable that I have learned about the most over the last few years is the part where the savior says, "who hath ears to hear, let him hear."  I have come to understand that the act of letting ourselves hear may be more of an active long-term process than a single passive experience.  It is not something that just happens to us, but it is something that we have to continually allow to happen to us - which I have discovered in my own personal experience can be a terrifying experience of vulnerability and courage. 

I don't doubt the sincerity of your seeking and wanting to know, all I can do is encourage you to not give up on your quest to letting yourself hear.  I think about all of those who came to Jesus, sincerely seeking for truth, and sincerely wanting to know if he was Lord.  And yet, despite their sincerity, were not able to let themselves hear with their heart.  There were personal impediments...not from having the capacity to hear, but from allowing themselves to hear, for whatever reason.    

I have had to work through those impediments in my own personal life before I was able to hear, and thus allow the word of God to touch my heart.  I am still working through those impediments...lots of them!  Line upon line I allow my self to hear a little bit more by removing personal impediments to hearing.  No, I am not talking about sin (maybe sometimes), but more about personal inhibiting beliefs about myself and God.  These beliefs, I have found, have kept me from authenticity and intimacy with God and others - despite my sincere desire to connect and feel the Lord in my life.  I have been hiding as Adam in Eden, from the voice of the Lord.  The Lord called over and over..."Adam, where are you?"  I have discovered that the most terrifying act of faith that we can ever do is expose our naked selves in the light of God and his all seeing eye, and call out as Adam did, "here I am."   But that is exactly what it takes.  Though we may approach the Lord in our sincerity, our inhibiting beliefs, wounds, and masks may keep us in hiding, and subconsciously keep us unwilling to hear and heal.  Until we come out of hiding from behind our masks, we will never feel the light of the Lord on our naked skin though we call out to him.  That is the work of hearing!    "Here I am"   Only then can we hear the voice say, "Here I AM".

I can't say what your impediments to hearing might be, but the Lord has shown me mine as I have asked.  And that is what I would suggest, if you are sincerely willing to try and continue to hear the voice of the Lord in your hearth - ask the Lord to reveal to you your personal impediments to allowing yourself to hear.  What are the inhibiting beliefs in your heart?  What are the masks that you might subconsciously be wearing (we all wear them).  And be willing (once revealed) to do whatever it takes to work through those impediments until your heart is healed, and softened, and malleable enough for the Lord to write his word upon your heart.  For the word of the Lord is not written upon tablets of stone, but on the fleshy tablets of our hearts (2 Corinthians 3:3). 

Thanks for the thoughtful answer pogi. I'm genuinely happy for you finding the way......here I'm gratified beyond measure ...still looking for answers....Your post warms my heart. 

[Meerkat]

On 12/2/2017 at 7:03 PM, pogi said:

You seem to get a disturbing kick out of mocking the damned.  Will you please just let us burn in peace!

That's a good one!