The Commandments and Christ

[FormerLDS]

16 hours ago, pogi said:

Wait...what?

Are you comparing my belief and faith in Jesus Christ to a superficial wedding ring with no eternal covenant or all encompasing commitment to Him?  Have we met?

Are really you comparing me to the rejected of the Savior? As if you were Lord over me and judge of me!  Is it not the Lord who looks on my heart while you  are blind to the inner workings of my heart and judge me with man’s judgment - a superficial and unrighteous judgement?

It almost sounds like you are suggesting that I need to do something more than I am already doing to EARN salvation. But surely you are not suggesting that I need to DO anything more than believe and accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, right?

Those who do not have eternal life are the rejected of the savior.

[FormerLDS]

13 hours ago, Meerkat said:

So one need only believe on Jesus Christ to receive eternal life? What does eternal life consist of, in your opinion? What is It's purpose?   What happens to a Jew after he dies, who knows not Christ, but was honest and obedient?  Does he have eternal life or something else? 

What does the scripture say?

Those who have the Son have eternal life.  Those who do not have the Son do not have eternal life.

Sorry, that's not my opinion.  

[FormerLDS]

13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

While living in Illinois, I was “tracked out” by a group of Evangelical young adults, and we got into this very discussion when I told them I was LDS. They claimed Mormons hope to earn salvation through good works but that really all we have to do is believe. They further said that if I do good works for that reason, God would condemn me for that. I asked if doing evil works would cause a believer to lose salvation, and they said no. So, I came to the conclusion, right or wrong, that we were talking past each other. To me, salvation is a free gift to all people from God through His Son...we are saved from death and hell. More is required, howeveer, for exaltation. They rejected the idea of exaltation. We parted friends, I think, even though I was consigned to hell for wanting to keep the commandments. I still don’t understand their argument, but maybe that’s because I’m not one of the elect.

It's a difference in terminology regarding the word "salvation".  Rather than using the word "Salvation", use "eternal life".  To evangelical Christians, there is either eternal life [i.e. highest possible salvation] or damnation [outer darkness].

The commandment of Jesus Christ for those who do not have eternal life is "believe" that you might receive eternal life today.

[FormerLDS]

13 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Thanks for engaging in this conversation.  Your comments do help illustrate the difference between LDS and non-LDS thinking.  There is a difference.  

This is the LDS third article of faith:

"3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

You read this differently than I do.  We embrace the Atonement of Jesus Christ.  We embrace the commandment to get baptized.  

Mormons also love the Savior, and obey out of love when He says "If he love me, keep my commandments."   We don't believe we can earn eternal life through that obedience.  Christ bought our Salvation.  But He does not penalize for obedience.  He wants us to obey.  So we try to.

C.S. Lewis said "Christians have often disputed as to what leads the Christian home is good actions, or faith in Christ.  I have no right to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking 'Which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary.'" He believed that salvation was in Christ, and that the "renovation of men and women's souls was the work of God, that person's who chose to come unto Christ were expected to be more than grateful and passive observers of the changes taking place within them."

I believe that also succinctly states a view that is embraced by LDS members.  Do we agree on this topic?

So on the one hand you believe that all mankind may be saved by obedience to laws and commandments, but on the other you claim that you don't believe you can earn eternal life through that obedience.

What "salvation" is referenced then in the third article of faith? 

[FormerLDS]

5 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

  We do so by a True Grace empowered Love, Belief, Faith, Covenant of Obedience to The Lord of Life, Lord, Redeemer, Savior, God, King, Master Christ Jesus To stay in Eternal Life.   

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm    

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garments In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian.

Can you show me where LDS theology supports your belief that you can "stay in Eternal life" [i.e. "have"] during mortality?

Seriously, I will publicly recant my position and re-join the LDS faith if you can show me this.

Thanks...

[Anakin7]

1 hour ago, FormerLDS said:

Can you show me where LDS theology supports your belief that you can "stay in Eternal life" [i.e. "have"] during mortality?

Seriously, I will publicly recant my position and re-join the LDS faith if you can show me this.

Thanks...

   True  LDS Salvation Soteriology [and True non LDS Soteriology] teach that one can "stay in Eternal Life" during mortality by Washing our Garments/Robes In The Blood of The Lamb Christ Jesus Rev 22:14-15 [NIV and other translations] Keeping The Commandments [KJV and other translations] both of which mean the same thing, If one is Washing there Garments In The Blood Of The Lamb they are keeping The Commandments, If they are keeping The Commandments they are Washing there Garments/Robes in the Blood of The Lamb. This is found in The Book of Mormon as well - 1 Nephi 12:10, Alma 5:21, 24;13, 3 Nephi 27:19, Ether 13:11.  This is done by way of accepting, accessing, activating, grabbing hold of, obtaining, receiving, holding on to The True Grace of Christ Jesus by way of True Faith [pistis in greek] = allegiance, commitment, confidence, devotion, discipleship, faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, obedience, trust to The Person and work of Christ Jesus. Yes we all fall short, thanks be To God for True Grace , Belief, Faith, Repentance and Mercy. We walk in The Light [His True Grace]  to have Jesus Christ's blood purifies us from all sin - NIV 1 John 1:7.  There is no once saved always saved in Holy writ. The commandments of Christ Jesus are not for bargain or changeable, they are there for a reason, to stay in True Grace and become more like him, See my links above.. May True Grace be with you.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Robe in The Blood Of The Lamb

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

 Once again for FormerLDS and all others, thou written by a non LDS author any True Grace Empowered LDS would agree with for the most part - http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Did-Jesus-Intend.html 

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine  

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Anakin7

[Meerkat]

2 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

What does the scripture say?

Those who have the Son have eternal life.  Those who do not have the Son do not have eternal life.

Sorry, that's not my opinion.  

I'm sorry FormerLDS, I'm not following your comment here. I'm probably having a senior moment.   Are you saying this is not your opinion?

[Okrahomer]

1 hour ago, Meerkat said:

I'm sorry FormerLDS, I'm not following your comment here. I'm probably having a senior moment.   Are you saying this is not your opinion?

I think there is a great deal of semantically-driven “talking past” at work in this discussion.  At a certain point, one has the impression some folks would rather argue than understand.

The scriptures say that the Law (commandments) is a “Schoolmaster” to bring us to Christ.  (Galatians 3:24-26).

This is exactly how it has been for me. When I was young, the commandments served as a protective safety net.  I tried to obey as best I could, but I also had a very shallow understanding.   For the most part, my initial obedience was fear-driven.  I was a child, and my motivations were childish.

But as I grew and matured, the childish motivations became less satisfying.  I craved deeper understanding; I wanted to know why I needed to obey the commandments—especially since it had become all too clear that I would always fall short.

I began to exercise faith.  In time, I came to know that Jesus loves me in spite of my sins and shortcomings.  I began to feel my understanding open up;  the gospel became sweet to me; and my motivation changed from fear to Love.

[Vanguard]

On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 11:51 PM, Meerkat said:

Do Latter-day Saints and those of other faiths here share a similar view on these topics:

1.  Why did God give us Commandments, and promises as incentives for keeping them? (Sometimes called Principles with Promises.)

2.  Why did Jesus instruct us to " Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."  Matt 5:48

3.  What kind of effort does God expect us to make in response to Christ's teachings?

Please share your insights.  Thanks!

1. Commandments are given so as to maximize our experience down here. It's like the owner's manual of a new car. Follow it's direction and you'll enjoy many more quality years of use.

2. He wants us to strive for perfection though he knows full well this will not be attained in this life. His directives are merely stating an ideal toward which all of our "realities" can strive.

3. The kind of effort is customized for literally every person and is informed by our knowledge of truth and our capacity to act on said truth.  

[Meerkat]

10 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

So on the one hand you believe that all mankind may be saved by obedience to laws and commandments, but on the other you claim that you don't believe you can earn eternal life through that obedience.

What "salvation" is referenced then in the third article of faith? 

Both faith in Christ coupled with desire and effort to keep the Commandments are required.  As C.S. Lewis put it,  "like two blades of a scissor." They go together.  

This comment from President Uchtdorf in an October 2005 conference talk may help you see the LDS perspective:

"Having faith in Jesus Christ and in His Atonement means relying completely on Him—trusting in His infinite power, intelligence, and love. When we have faith in Christ, we trust the Lord enough to follow His commandments—even when we do not completely understand the reasons for them. In seeking to become more like the Savior, we need to rely, through the path of true repentance, upon the merits of Jesus Christ and the blessings of His Atonement."

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

It's a difference in terminology regarding the word "salvation".  Rather than using the word "Salvation", use "eternal life".  To evangelical Christians, there is either eternal life [i.e. highest possible salvation] or damnation [outer darkness].

The commandment of Jesus Christ for those who do not have eternal life is "believe" that you might receive eternal life today.

Are you of the Calvinist camp?

[FormerLDS]

6 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Both faith in Christ coupled with desire and effort to keep the Commandments are required.  As C.S. Lewis put it,  "like two blades of a scissor." They go together.  

This comment from President Uchtdorf in an October 2005 conference talk may help you see the LDS perspective:

"Having faith in Jesus Christ and in His Atonement means relying completely on Him—trusting in His infinite power, intelligence, and love. When we have faith in Christ, we trust the Lord enough to follow His commandments—even when we do not completely understand the reasons for them. In seeking to become more like the Savior, we need to rely, through the path of true repentance, upon the merits of Jesus Christ and the blessings of His Atonement."

If "faith in Christ" plus "keep the commandments" are both required for eternal life, why did the rejected of the Savior in Matthew chapter 7 not make it?  

They clearly had faith in Christ.  They clearly were doing works - works above anything any Mormon has ever done.

Yet Christ rejected them.

Why?

[FormerLDS]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Are you of the Calvinist camp?

Absolutely not.  How can mankind be depraved (first point of Calvinism) when he has a free gift of eternal life at his fingertips? 

[FormerLDS]

16 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

   True  LDS Salvation Soteriology [and True non LDS Soteriology] teach that one can "stay in Eternal Life" during mortality by Washing our Garments/Robes In The Blood of The Lamb Christ Jesus Rev 22:14-15 [NIV and other translations] Keeping The Commandments [KJV and other translations] both of which mean the same thing, If one is Washing there Garments In The Blood Of The Lamb they are keeping The Commandments, If they are keeping The Commandments they are Washing there Garments/Robes in the Blood of The Lamb. This is found in The Book of Mormon as well - 1 Nephi 12:10, Alma 5:21, 24;13, 3 Nephi 27:19, Ether 13:11.  This is done by way of accepting, accessing, activating, grabbing hold of, obtaining, receiving, holding on to The True Grace of Christ Jesus by way of True Faith [pistis in greek] = allegiance, commitment, confidence, devotion, discipleship, faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, obedience, trust to The Person and work of Christ Jesus. Yes we all fall short, thanks be To God for True Grace , Belief, Faith, Repentance and Mercy. We walk in The Light [His True Grace]  to have Jesus Christ's blood purifies us from all sin - NIV 1 John 1:7.  There is no once saved always saved in Holy writ. The commandments of Christ Jesus are not for bargain or changeable, they are there for a reason, to stay in True Grace and become more like him, See my links above.. May True Grace be with you.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Robe in The Blood Of The Lamb

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian

 

I'm not challenging what you (personally) believe.

Again, if you can show me where LDS theology supports our belief that mankind can "stay in Eternal life" [i.e. "have"] during mortality I will publicly recant my position and re-join the LDS faith.

Edited December 1, 2017 by FormerLDS
Grammar...

[Anakin7]

2 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

If "faith in Christ" plus "keep the commandments" are both required for eternal life, why did the rejected of the Savior in Matthew chapter 7 not make it?  

They clearly had faith in Christ.  They clearly were doing works - works above anything any Mormon has ever done.

Yet Christ rejected them.

Why?

 Once again Faith [pistis in Greek] means allegiance, commitment, confidence, dedication, devotion, faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, obedience, trust which is The Ancient,Christian, Biblical Lifestyle in ones nature if truly Born Again. Its not "plus" its ingrained in the word Faith. Yes they were doing works, but for what reason ?,  they were chastised for the reason they were doing those works with no real Love in there heart and mind to serve God The Father In The Name of The Son by way of The Holy Ghost/Spirit to serve there fellow man.. Jesus saw in there hearts and minds what there real emotions and feelings were. Works were done but empty within. So your observation to me seems not true.

The Atonement, It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian

[Anakin7]

2 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

I'm not challenging what you (personally) believe.

Again, if you can show me where LDS theology supports our belief that mankind can "stay in Eternal life" [i.e. "have"] during mortality I will publicly recant my position and re-join the LDS faith.

      What I "personally" believe is True LDS Doctrine, Teaching, Thought, Practice, Walk, Run, Journey, and is True Christian Biblical Theology. We stay in Eternal life by walking In The Light of His Grace. Did you read my scripture references and links in my previous posts ?.   

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian

[Meerkat]

2 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

If "faith in Christ" plus "keep the commandments" are both required for eternal life, why did the rejected of the Savior in Matthew chapter 7 not make it?  

They clearly had faith in Christ.  They clearly were doing works - works above anything any Mormon has ever done.

Yet Christ rejected them.

Why?

I love Matthew chapter 7.  As It read it, Matt. 7 is unambiguous in it's support of LDS doctrine.  

Following the passage that explains how to distinguish between a true and a false prophet (By their fruits he shall know them,) is the passage I believe you are referring to:

"21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
            22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
            23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I have known people who have confessed Christ, claim to know Him, yet live nearly completely contrary to His teachings.  "Why?" I asked them.  "We can do what we want as long as we believe, and our sins are forgiven," I was told.

The scripture you refer to (if this is it) makes clear that "he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" is accepted.  He that works iniquity is not.  How do you define doing the will of my Father?  Christ defines it this way in John 14:15 "If he love me, keep my commandments."

I don't understand why there is any dispute over the importance of faith in Christ AND doing good works-- both.  The scriptures are full of that doctrine.

I probably don't need to refer you to James 2 "18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
            19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
            20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

There are many others that support this.  How do you ignore those scriptures?  Help me understand.  It seems to me we should all be on the same page with this, regardless of denomination.  Do you agree?  If not, why not?  I'm trying to get the beam out of my eye here, as instructed in Matt. 7:1-5, so I appreciate your help.  

[Meerkat]

20 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

So on the one hand you believe that all mankind may be saved by obedience to laws and commandments, but on the other you claim that you don't believe you can earn eternal life through that obedience.

What "salvation" is referenced then in the third article of faith? 

 

Quote

I'm not challenging what you (personally) believe.

Again, if you can show me where LDS theology supports our belief that mankind can "stay in Eternal life" [i.e. "have"] during mortality I will publicly recant my position and re-join the LDS faith.

Back in my Lutheran days, I memorized Matthew 7:7-8, in which Christ taught "7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
            8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

That scripture gave me confidence when I read Moroni 10:4-5 which states "4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
            5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

I believe these scriptures contain a key to understanding things that are otherwise hard to understand in the scriptures, such as Salvation, faith, works, why God calls prophets, etc. I believe using Prayer, and the Holy Ghost can help reconcile our differences.  What are your thoughts?

Edited December 1, 2017 by Meerkat

[Anakin7]

    Okay once again for FormerLDS [Who I think is a Fundamentalist Independent  Baptist if I remember correctly, I may be mistaken]  - http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Did-Jesus-Intend.html . Read also http://www.christian-history.org/sola-fide.html    http://www.christian-history.org/not-by-faith-alone.html    http://14lds.com/oldsite/luther.htm 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian

Edited December 1, 2017 by Anakin7

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Absolutely not.  How can mankind be depraved (first point of Calvinism) when he has a free gift of eternal life at his fingertips? 

The Calvinist would argue that the gift is free but it is God’s prerogative to choose on whom he will bestow it.

Would you briefly describe the process to get the free gift that is at their fingertips?

In my discussion with the Evangelical missionaries that I described above, I asked if a believer were to commit murder, would he still be saved? They gave me two contradictory answers. How would you answer that question?

Edited December 1, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[FormerLDS]

4 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

      What I "personally" believe is True LDS Doctrine, Teaching, Thought, Practice, Walk, Run, Journey, and is True Christian Biblical Theology. We stay in Eternal life by walking In The Light of His Grace. Did you read my scripture references and links in my previous posts ?.   

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian

Take III: Your scripture reference is your opinion.  Like I said, I'm not trying to debate what you personally believe.

You claim that you believe LDS doctrine, so where does LDS doctrine state that you can "stay in eternal life" during mortality?

I'm sorry, but you really don't have a clue what your own church teaches...about it's single most important doctrine.

[FormerLDS]

4 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I love Matthew chapter 7.  As It read it, Matt. 7 is unambiguous in it's support of LDS doctrine.  

Following the passage that explains how to distinguish between a true and a false prophet (By their fruits he shall know them,) is the passage I believe you are referring to:

"21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
            22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
            23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I have known people who have confessed Christ, claim to know Him, yet live nearly completely contrary to His teachings.  "Why?" I asked them.  "We can do what we want as long as we believe, and our sins are forgiven," I was told.

The scripture you refer to (if this is it) makes clear that "he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" is accepted.  He that works iniquity is not.  How do you define doing the will of my Father?  Christ defines it this way in John 14:15 "If he love me, keep my commandments."

I don't understand why there is any dispute over the importance of faith in Christ AND doing good works-- both.  The scriptures are full of that doctrine.

I probably don't need to refer you to James 2 "18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
            19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
            20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

There are many others that support this.  How do you ignore those scriptures?  Help me understand.  It seems to me we should all be on the same page with this, regardless of denomination.  Do you agree?  If not, why not?  I'm trying to get the beam out of my eye here, as instructed in Matt. 7:1-5, so I appreciate your help.  

Jesus Christ plainly tells what the will of the Father is for those who do not have eternal life.

Perhaps you should investigate?

[FormerLDS]

3 hours ago, Meerkat said:

 

Back in my Lutheran days, I memorized Matthew 7:7-8, in which Christ taught "7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
            8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

That scripture gave me confidence when I read Moroni 10:4-5 which states "4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
            5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

I believe these scriptures contain a key to understanding things that are otherwise hard to understand in the scriptures, such as Salvation, faith, works, why God calls prophets, etc. I believe using Prayer, and the Holy Ghost can help reconcile our differences.  What are your thoughts?

My thoughts?  I think Moroni's Promise is a satanic, demonic deception intended to trick people into trusting in a spooky feeling within their hearts rather than simply trusting in what God has already revealed in His word, the Bible.

I think one day, if you do not receive the free gift of eternal life Jesus Christ is offering you, you will unfortunately die and discover that the "Jesus Christ" you've been trusting in doesn't have any nail prints in his hands or his feet.

He is a false Christ.

[FormerLDS]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The Calvinist would argue that the gift is free but it is God’s prerogative to choose on whom he will bestow it.

Would you briefly describe the process to get the free gift that is at their fingertips?

In my discussion with the Evangelical missionaries that I described above, I asked if a believer were to commit murder, would he still be saved? They gave me two contradictory answers. How would you answer that question?

Friends, don't believe my words, believe in the words of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ said "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev 22:17)  Eternal life is not God's choice - it's our choice to take freely or not.

The Bible says eternal life is a gift (Romans 6:23).  What must you do to receive a gift?  Do you become an Olympian to receive a "gift"?  Do you pay a monthly payment for 30 years to receive a "gift"?  Do you have to give your money, your time, your talents or your life to receive a "gift"?  Or do you simply all it to be a gift and take it freely, just like it was intended? 

Regarding committing murder, if you committed murder, would you still be the child of your father?