Gray Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Yes, they do. If the Bible was just the work of some high-minded Jews according to you, and the New Testament is simply a collection of Catholic books ---- no matter how well intended, it can never be fully trusted. I for one cannot believe your ideology. As a Christian, something inside (call it a still small voice) "He is attempting to uplift man and limit GOD's authority and power." Let's be clear - the NT is mostly Jewish. It's certainly not Catholic. But its value has nothing to do with whether or not it's perfect, and none of that has anything to do with what might happen to you after you die. Edited November 13, 2017 by Gray 1
cdowis Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Accept it and live as though you are forgiven. I personally do not know what the Pope believes any more than what the Mormon Prophet actually believes. I'm not pretending (as you call it) to represent everyone calling themselves "Christian." I do know what Bible Believing, Born-again, Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Christians accept. Let's get to the real issue. An inerrant Bible is meaningless unless you have an inerrant INTERPRETATION of the Bible. Where is that source of inerrant interpretation? Are you claiming that honor. Perhaps Martin Luther. Let's look at John 3 [5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water AND of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The inerrant interpretation of this verse? After all, Christ is telling us a requirement for salvation, so there should be no disagreement on His meaning. You have not answered my other questions so let's see if we can get a response here. Edited November 13, 2017 by cdowis 2
LittleNipper Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, cdowis said: Let's get to the real issue. An inerrant Bible is meaningless unless you have an inerrant INTERPRETATION of the Bible. Where is that source of inerrant interpretation? Are you claiming that honor. Perhaps Martin Luther. Let's look at John 3 [5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water AND of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Can you provide us the inerrant interpretation of this verse? Do all Bible believing Christians accept your interpretation. After all, Christ is telling us a requirement for salvation, so there should be no disagreement on His meaning. An inerrant Bible is not meaningless. And a maturing interpretation of the Bible is possible only with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And an individual must be at first carried in the womb (natal fluid) in order to then be spiritually reborn. The ONLY thing one needs to do for salvation is to believe putting one's faith in the Messiah Jesus Christ (Messiah). The Holy Spirit can then begin a process of educating/perfecting the Christian that comes to its culmination upon the end of this life cycle. God never said we need to fully understand everything in order to be saved. There is nothing wrong with in-depth studies of the Word; however, one must not imagine that fully understanding/comprehending GOD or HIS ways is possible or what GOD ultimately desires ------ such would neither establish faith nor trust.
LittleNipper Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Gray said: Let's be clear - the NT is mostly Jewish. It's certainly not Catholic. But its value has nothing to do with whether or not it's perfect, and none of that has anything to do with what might happen to you after you die. Everything Christians know about GOD originates with the Bible. Even a Mormon understanding of the book of Mormon hinges on how Mormons perceive the Bible. Without the Bible we would in fact be as Abram and Sari. GOD had to pull them away from a pagan society and minister to them. They had no Bible. And if you read the story they were not seeking GOD. They had no word of GOD. GOD revealed Himself to them. Now GOD reveals Himself through His Word to Christians who in turn preach His Gospel Message (found in His Word) to the others. A Scientist may in fact perceive that there is something creative and great who designed everything but without a revelation He cannot understand what path GOD wants him to follow nor how to be saved. http://www.hymnpod.com/2009/07/07/jesus-is-all-the-world-to-me/ Song based on Scripture: Philippians 1:21; Colossians 3:11 Edited November 13, 2017 by LittleNipper
Calm Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, sunstoned said: The tar and feathering came from people angry at his taking advantage of a young girl in Kirtland.... He wrote a book (Book of Mormon) and tried to sell the copyright. Why would someone want to sell a copyright? The answer is to get money. Is this the actions of a prophet? Sell the book that was given to him through revelation? Please tell us who this young girl was.... ----- You need to study up on why they needed to secure the BoM copyright in Canada. It was about protecting ownership and getting it published, not to get money. https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/securing-prophets-copyright-book-mormon-historical-and-legal-context-so-called-canadian "The 2009 publication of the Manuscript Revelation Books as part of the Joseph Smith Papers makes available, for the first time, the text of a revelation received in 1829 or 1830 by the Prophet Joseph Smith on securing the copyright of the Book of Mormon in all the world and selling a copyright for its publication in the four then-existing provinces of Canada. This revelation, commonly referred to as the Canadian copyright revelation, designated four of Joseph's associates to travel to Kingston, Upper Canada, to sell a copyright of the Book of Mormon. A group did travel to Kingston, but they were unsuccessful in finding a purchaser. Stephen Ehat's study explores where the revelation was received, the dating of both the revelation and the group's journey to Canada, the location of the four men mentioned in the revelation when it was given, the meaning in the revelation of the phrases "securing the copyright" and "sell a copyright," the state of both U.S. and Canadian copyright law in 1830, the financial need that likely led to the revelation, and the reason Joseph's messengers were sent specifically to Kingston." They keep messing around with the urls. Just search on the name if you actually are interested in learning what securing and selling the copyright meant back then (not what you seem to assume). If you can't find it, let me or someone else know. There are, in my opinion, viable reasons to doubt Joseph (though also viable answers to these doubts in most cases, ultimately it is faith). These two claims are not among them given what we know now about what actually happened (no known actual candidates of brothers, fathers, or uncles of girls/women approached by Joseph in the mob as has been claimed...much more likely property or religious dispute; Canadian copyright issues were different back then) 6 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: Little Nipper, can you please post (using your own words) all the things you believe are required for salvation? Probably better in another thread, the two conversations are diverging greatly. Edited November 13, 2017 by Calm 2
Jane_Doe Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 4 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: Then will you please acknowledge that everyone talking to you on this thread is saved. *Bumping this up for a response by @LittleNipper
cdowis Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 (edited) Sigh. I guess gth time is past for an intelligent discussion. I give you the last word. Edited November 13, 2017 by cdowis
LittleNipper Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 6 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: *Bumping this up for a response by @LittleNipper Such a thing is not for me or anyone else to testify of. Such a thing is between the individual and GOD through Christ by means of the Holy Spirit in accordance with the Holy Bible.
Avatar4321 Posted November 13, 2017 Author Posted November 13, 2017 On 11/12/2017 at 7:33 AM, LittleNipper said: "IF" what you say is true then there is no hope of ever knowing the truth. and you will not go to heaven. You are lost. Only want GOD reveals is totally and without question the God's honest truth. its not the bible that tells us if we will go to heaven. It's the holy spirit.
Avatar4321 Posted November 13, 2017 Author Posted November 13, 2017 On 11/12/2017 at 8:03 AM, LittleNipper said: Then why are Mormon's iffy on the subject of homosexual marriage for instance? One would think they would be spot on. What moral standards? Love thy neighbor as thyself ---- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you --- Love the Lord your GOD with all your body, heart and soul? Or could it be just a return to the very old belief that GOD needs us and cannot exist without us. Isn't that the very same drivel that Satan fed Adam & Eve. on what planet are we iffy on same sex marriage? We only lead the effort to stop legalization. 1
pogi Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 9 hours ago, LittleNipper said: An inerrant Bible is not meaningless. And a maturing interpretation of the Bible is possible only with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And an individual must be at first carried in the womb (natal fluid) in order to then be spiritually reborn. The ONLY thing one needs to do for salvation is to believe putting one's faith in the Messiah Jesus Christ (Messiah). The Holy Spirit can then begin a process of educating/perfecting the Christian that comes to its culmination upon the end of this life cycle. God never said we need to fully understand everything in order to be saved. There is nothing wrong with in-depth studies of the Word; however, one must not imagine that fully understanding/comprehending GOD or HIS ways is possible or what GOD ultimately desires ------ such would neither establish faith nor trust. I think this is an important point. Whether or not the Bible is infallible is besides the point. The problem in understanding and interpreting the word of God ultimately boils down to the fallibility of man. Whether or not the Bible is infallible doesn't really matter, because in the end, we are saying the same thing. We are saying that the Bible can only be understood properly through the Holy Spirit. In the end, it doesn't really matter what the Bible says, what really matters is what the Holy Spirit teaches you about it. You can point to the Bible all day long as "proof" of your claims, but how does that convince me that your interpretation is not without error? Even if the Bible is without error, you cannot guarantee me that your interpretation is not without error. That is why personal revelation/Holy Spirit is more essential and critical in understanding and conversion to the Word of God. 9 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Everything Christians know about GOD originates with the Bible. Even a Mormon understanding of the book of Mormon hinges on how Mormons perceive the Bible. Without the Bible we would in fact be as Abram and Sari. GOD had to pull them away from a pagan society and minister to them. They had no Bible. And if you read the story they were not seeking GOD. They had no word of GOD. GOD revealed Himself to them. Now GOD reveals Himself through His Word to Christians who in turn preach His Gospel Message (found in His Word) to the others. A Scientist may in fact perceive that there is something creative and great who designed everything but without a revelation He cannot understand what path GOD wants him to follow nor how to be saved. This is a perfect example to prove my point above. Abram and Sari had no Bible, yet God revealed Himself to them. Do you see how Christians knowledge DOES NOT actually "originate with the Bible" as you claim? It originates with revelation - with prophets. So, which is more essential, infallible revelation/Holy Spirit, or the Bible which is subject to false interpretations? 1
Glenn101 Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 10 hours ago, LittleNipper said: The ONLY thing one needs to do for salvation is to believe putting one's faith in the Messiah Jesus Christ (Messiah). I was going to respond to this, but noticed that the thread was supposed to be about Joseph as a con man. Maybe you should start another thread on this subject.
Jane_Doe Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Such a thing is not for me or anyone else to testify of. Such a thing is between the individual and GOD through Christ by means of the Holy Spirit in accordance with the Holy Bible. You said: 15 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Place your faith and trust in Jesus and you shall be saved. I have placed my faith and trust in Jesus. Therefore, according to your beliefs I am saved. Do you acknowledge this? Edited November 13, 2017 by Jane_Doe 1
Gray Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 10 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Everything Christians know about GOD originates with the Bible. The first Christians didn't have your Bible. They learned new things about God. How is that possible? 10 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Now GOD reveals Himself through His Word to Christians who in turn preach His Gospel Message (found in His Word) to the others. This is self refuting because it's not in the Bible.
Avatar4321 Posted November 13, 2017 Author Posted November 13, 2017 16 hours ago, LittleNipper said: The book of Mormon according to Joseph Smith has been hiding under a bushel for how many years? I believe GOD can speak specifically to individuals about their specific problem --- likely in the form of answered prayer; however, I see nothing additional that God could say that He hasn't already said to Christians or the world on the whole in His Word. Why is there sin? (answered). How is one saved? (answered). Who is the Messiah? (answered) What will happen in the last days? (answered) What will become of the CHURCH? (answered) What will become of Israel? (answered) What will happen to all those that reject the Messiah? (answered) What will the New Jerusalem look like? (answered). Do you believe GOD just stuck any form of gossip in His word to fill empty space? and that's the difference between us you believe that God can't and wont we believe that God can and does
Avatar4321 Posted November 13, 2017 Author Posted November 13, 2017 16 hours ago, LittleNipper said: I do not tell GOD how to do His business but He explains to me what He wants through reading His Bible. Restoring the Gospel in what way exactly. I've read the book of Mormon and I find nothing of any consequence with regard to security. What exactly do you find written in the book of Mormon that is necessary for salvation and your eternal joy? continuing revelation for one.
Avatar4321 Posted November 13, 2017 Author Posted November 13, 2017 16 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Nope! Repentance is to embrace God's forgiveness which is eternal. If these questions have been answered by the Mormon church, why are there so many Mormon "denominations and prophets"? It would seem you've done a load of deli shopping yourself. if you understood Mormonism you would realize we are a church of prophets
stemelbow Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 I think it's clear Joseph was both honest in some cases and deceitful in others. I think it's clear we're all that way. To define a con man we have to have to have someone willing to buy into the con. There seems to be just as much sincerity in someone who wants to make money and wants to benefit any investors and yet fails, loses the money out of gross negligence and/or incompetence, as there is to someone who intends the same and it works. In terms of funding. it seems Joseph was one who thought the Kirtland banking situation could have worked. It appears he simply was in over his head and it failed. When it was uncovered, many considered it a con job, particularly those who lost out. All of us, it seems, want to make money, like Joseph did. We all are just wise enough not to try and make something work when we don't know what we're doing, and most of us don't involve others until we have assurance we know what we're doing. Joseph came from no means at all. He found a way to get admirers and supporters (financially), and sexual exploits. It might not have worked that well, because, as some say, he never got rich off of it, and perhaps a number of his marriages never produced children. But its likely many people's ventures in trying to take advantage, gain followers, fail. Without Joseph's religious pursuits he might never has been as rich, or admired as he was. I can see an argument either way as acceptable in this. On the other hand, the religion he started has, according to its benefactors, benefited many people over many years. Perhaps many other con operations have benefited many people over many years, though. It's an iffy gray area.
thesometimesaint Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 16 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Place your faith and trust in Jesus and you shall be saved. Already did. Now what? 1
Avatar4321 Posted November 13, 2017 Author Posted November 13, 2017 16 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Well, then you have no problem visiting other churches? why would any of us have a problem visiting other churches? 2
thesometimesaint Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 17 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Nope! Repentance is to embrace God's forgiveness which is eternal. If these questions have been answered by the Mormon church, why are there so many Mormon "denominations and prophets"? It would seem you've done a load of deli shopping yourself. What happens to those that reject that repentance. Does God force them to be in Heaven? There may be a "Mormon church" out there. I really don't know, but we aren't them. At least get the name of the Church correct. The next biggest offshoot is the Community of Christ. They are tiny in comparison. BTW There are some 40,000 different Christian sects, is your congregation responsible for all of them? Pot meet kettle. 2
blueglass Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 On 11/10/2017 at 11:21 PM, Robert F. Smith said: including a feat no one else could perform of employing an extinct form of the English language. Could you describe more about this "extinct form" ? Have you performed a google books search on the n-gram patterns?
blueglass Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 20 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Then Mormons should be just fine. The original JST - (unfortunately this reference was dropped from our current 1981, 2013 scriptures) concurred with Martin Luther, that we are saved by faith alone (sola fide), Rom 3:28 Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law.
Robert F. Smith Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 26 minutes ago, blueglass said: Could you describe more about this "extinct form" ? Have you performed a google books search on the n-gram patterns? We have had a number of discussions on this board about Early Modern English in the Book of Mormon, the most recent being http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69830-19th-century-phrases-in-the-bom-especially-for-the-emodeers/ . That is a good place to start on your questions.
blueglass Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: We have had a number of discussions on this board about Early Modern English in the Book of Mormon, the most recent being http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69830-19th-century-phrases-in-the-bom-especially-for-the-emodeers/ . That is a good place to start on your questions. OK will look into this. I studied last night more on what I thought were the unique views on atonement found in the book of mormon such as "infinite atonement", and "infinite goodness". Found lots of hits prior to 1830 in google books. Edited November 13, 2017 by blueglass
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