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jospeh the con man?

Avatar4321

By Avatar4321
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sunstoned Grand Master

sunstoned

Posted
Posted
On 11/10/2017 at 5:29 PM, bluebell said:

The evidence doesn't seem to fit with his motivation being to purposefully deceive people for his own gain.  He lived a really difficult life.   Even if sex was the gain he was looking for, there is little evidence to suggest that he got much if any of that from his other wives.  He was beaten, tar and feathered, had a horrible reputation outside of mormons, was in prison (in squalor and cold) for months at a time, and financially poor for most of his life.

And then he was killed.

What evidence is there of a con? 

Yes, bad things happened to JS.  That doesn't address his intentions.  Con men often times get caught and beat up.  The tar and feathering came from people angry at his taking advantage of a young girl in Kirtland.   His family dirt poor while he was growing up.  He tried to make money by treasure hunting and "glass looking".  He wrote a book (Book of Mormon) and tried to sell the copyright.  Why would someone want to sell a copyright?  The answer is to get money.  Is this the actions of a prophet?  Sell the book that was given to him through revelation? 

The end result was that his work effort paid off.  At Nauvoo he lived in a "mansion" house, he was the mayor and a general in an army that he created.  His family also benefited from the organization that JS created.  Even his father, who struggled with alcohol, was made a patriarch and charged $3 for blessings (http://olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1886WWyl.htm#pg016b).  Even Joseph's mother, Lucy Mack Smith made money by charging visitors to see the egyptian mummies JS bought from Chandler (with the membder's money) https://medium.com/mormon-writers/gospel-topics-responses-e28be44ffefa.

All of this is circumstantial evidence that (IMO) points to someone who is less than honest, rather than a prophet of god. 

 

 

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kiwi57 Experienced

kiwi57

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

My take on the con-man/holy prophet debate is that joseph smith was a complex character like many human beings are.  There are stories of how magnanimous he was and stories of his faults.  For me, his motivations are hard to decipher and I think we will never have a clear picture of what he was thinking from one moment to the next.  I however think he was motivated by power - he did have himself crowned king by the counsel of 50.

Did he?

So where is the crown? What became of it?

An anointing is not a coronation, Pete.

3 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

  His revelations always put him on top whenever there was a power struggle.

You mean - just like Moses?

3 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

 However, he seemed like the kind of guy one would want to be around.

Anyway, I look at what he did rather than what he might have been thinking.  There still isn't much evidence for historicity.  The papyri we have don't mention Abraham anywhere and I can't buy that whatever got translated somehow became the word of god.  Then there is the core question of the atonement.  For me having a god that was seemingly powerless to forgive his creations without an atonement is baffling.

Which wanders a bit off the topic, doesn't it?

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kiwi57 Experienced

kiwi57

Posted
Posted
37 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Yes, bad things happened to JS.  That doesn't address his intentions.  Con men often times get caught and beat up.  The tar and feathering came from people angry at his taking advantage of a young girl in Kirtland.

Pardon me for interrupting your litany of accusations, but Calm has already addressed this one; and yet you go blithely on, pretending that it hasn't been, because it suits - what? Your agenda or your prejudices?

37 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

All of this is circumstantial evidence that (IMO) points to someone who is less than honest, rather than a prophet of god. 

'Nuff said.

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bluebell Grand Master

bluebell

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

Yes, bad things happened to JS.  That doesn't address his intentions.  Con men often times get caught and beat up.  The tar and feathering came from people angry at his taking advantage of a young girl in Kirtland.   His family dirt poor while he was growing up.  He tried to make money by treasure hunting and "glass looking".  He wrote a book (Book of Mormon) and tried to sell the copyright.  Why would someone want to sell a copyright?  The answer is to get money.  Is this the actions of a prophet?  Sell the book that was given to him through revelation? 

The end result was that his work effort paid off.  At Nauvoo he lived in a "mansion" house, he was the mayor and a general in an army that he created.  His family also benefited from the organization that JS created.  Even his father, who struggled with alcohol, was made a patriarch and charged $3 for blessings (http://olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1886WWyl.htm#pg016b).  Even Joseph's mother, Lucy Mack Smith made money by charging visitors to see the egyptian mummies JS bought from Chandler (with the membder's money) https://medium.com/mormon-writers/gospel-topics-responses-e28be44ffefa.

All of this is circumstantial evidence that (IMO) points to someone who is less than honest, rather than a prophet of god. 

 

 

I know that's how you see it.  I see it differently.

But to go back to the bolded statement, for con men, the payout has to exceed the cost.  Considering what starting the church cost JS, compared to what he gained, the evidence doesn't equal con man to me.  

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cdowis Grand Master

cdowis

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, sunstoned said:

 The tar and feathering came from people angry at his taking advantage of a young girl in Kirtland. 

CFR.

This is a very serious accusation and this is a formal request for credible documentation beyond antiMormon gossip.

Edited by cdowis
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LittleNipper Experienced

LittleNipper

Posted
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I feel the same way about the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, yet you reject them.

You say truth is established by the word of God yet you reject everything he has said after 95 AD in one location on earth.  It is you who are limiting God.  Do you honestly believe GOD cannot say more to man than is in the Bible? God is the living scripture, not the Bible, and man must live by EVERY word he says, not just the ones chosen by a council of clerics.

The book of Mormon according to Joseph Smith has been hiding under a bushel for how many years? I believe GOD can speak specifically to individuals about their specific problem --- likely in the form of answered prayer; however, I see nothing additional that God could say that He hasn't already said to Christians or the world on the whole in His Word. Why is there sin? (answered). How is one saved? (answered). Who is the Messiah? (answered) What will happen in the last days? (answered) What will become of the CHURCH? (answered) What will become of Israel? (answered) What will happen to all those that reject the Messiah? (answered) What will the New Jerusalem look like? (answered). 

Do you believe GOD just stuck any form of gossip in His word to fill empty space?

 

Edited by LittleNipper
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cdowis Grand Master

cdowis

Posted
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

 How is one saved? (answered).

Is water baptism necessary for salvation? 

Is confessing Christ sufficient for salvation -- how about keeping the commandments and repentance.  
Tell us about == pre-destination vs free will.
Will we all be judged by our works?

What did Christ mean when He said,  John 17 [21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Does that mean we will become  "one substance" (Nicene Creed) with the Father and Son?

If these questions have been answered, do ALL Bible believing Christians agree on that answer.   You "know" the answers but does the Pope agree with your answers?

I think you are full of baloney, but let's see what you got.

Edited by cdowis
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LittleNipper Experienced

LittleNipper

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, cdowis said:

Do you believe that you can tell God HOW to do his business? 

He "protected His Word and fulfilled it" by calling prophets in our day and restoring  the Gospel.  He did it by giving us modern revelation -- the Book of Mormon -- and calling prophets in our day.

Do you remember the Jews rejecting Christ because he did not defeat the Roman domination of Israel.  The Jews made the same mistake by telling God what the Saviour would do.  They told God what to do and  they rejected God's living prophets.  They supposed that they were wiser than God Himself.

 

I do not tell GOD how to do His business but He explains to me what He wants through reading His Bible.

Restoring the Gospel in what way exactly. I've read the book of Mormon and I find nothing of any consequence with regard to security.  What exactly do you find written in the book of Mormon that is necessary for salvation and your eternal joy?

Edited by LittleNipper
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LittleNipper Experienced

LittleNipper

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, cdowis said:

Is water baptism necessary for salvation? 

Is confessing Christ sufficient for salvation -- how about keeping the commandments and repentance.  Tell us about == predestination vs free will.

If these questions have been answered, why don't ALL Bible believing Christians agree on that answer.   You "know" the answers but does the Pope agree with your answers?

I think you are full of baloney, but let's see what you got.

Nope!

Repentance is to embrace God's forgiveness which is eternal.

If these questions have been answered by the Mormon church, why are there so many Mormon "denominations and prophets"?

It would seem you've done a load of deli shopping yourself.

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cdowis Grand Master

cdowis

Posted
Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

Nope!

Repentance is to embrace God's forgiveness which is eternal.

What does it mean to "embrace forgiveness".  Just open your mouth and shout Hallelujah?   By "eternal" do you mean this is done just one time, and you can continue to sin without repenting ==>> a one time event and get a free ticket for eternity
What specifically do.  Remember you are pretending to represent ALL Bible believing Christians.

Please take each question and answer them.  You skipped over them.  

 

Edited by cdowis
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LittleNipper Experienced

LittleNipper

Posted
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, cdowis said:

What does it mean to "embrace forgiveness".  Just open your mouth and shout Hallelujah? What specifically do you do, and does the Pope agree with your answer.  Remember you are pretending to represent ALL Bible believing Christians.

Accept it and live as though you are forgiven. I personally do not know what the Pope believes any more than what the Mormon Prophet actually believes. I'm not pretending (as you call it) to represent everyone calling themselves "Christian." I do know what  Bible Believing, Born-again, Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Christians accept. I do not imagine the Pope is on the same page. Even Martin Luther realized this.

18 minutes ago, cdowis said:

 

 

Edited by LittleNipper
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cdowis Grand Master

cdowis

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

It would seem you've done a load of deli shopping yourself.

Little,

You have now gotten my attention, and I suspect we will be spending some time together,  May I suggest that you really do your homework and go beyond the usual antiMormon stuff.

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LittleNipper Experienced

LittleNipper

Posted
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, cdowis said:

Is baptism necessary for salvation?  What did Christ say.

Do ALL Christians agree with you.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is necessary; however, that comes when one asks with a repentant heart for GOD to save him and accepts Jesus Christ as his Savior. Water saves no one but is illustrative of dying to self and being reborn in the Lord. Nothing anyone else can do will save another's soul. All one can do is preach the Good Message that the Messiah has arrived and paid it ALL --- It is finished!

 

 

Edited by LittleNipper
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JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

Place your faith and trust in Jesus and you shall be saved.

Then Mormons should be just fine.

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Gray Grand Master

Gray

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Then why are Mormon's iffy on the subject of homosexual marriage for instance? One would think they would be spot on. What moral standards? Love thy neighbor as thyself ---- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you --- Love the Lord your GOD with all your body, heart and soul? Or could it be just a return to the very old belief that GOD needs us and cannot exist without us. Isn't that the very same drivel that Satan fed Adam & Eve.

For instance,  the Book of Mormon doesn't recommend evils like chattel slavery and genocide. 

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