JAHS Posted October 11, 2017 Author Posted October 11, 2017 11 minutes ago, Calm said: Since we don't know what happened before or what will happen afterwards nor do we know what those who suffer are like in their total, eternal natures, we cannot judge either the fairness or even the actual impact of what are to us horrific situations. I guess the victims of such perpetrators will be used to stand as a witness against them at judgment and the victims will somehow be compensated in the next life if they can endure to the end in this life.
mnn727 Posted October 11, 2017 Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, changed said: Life is not fair, everyone is not given an equal chance..... nothing is just. God is just. You do understand that there is life after death? Edited October 11, 2017 by mnn727 2
mfbukowski Posted October 11, 2017 Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Teancum said: Yet President Eyring says there are no mistakes in callings. This seems like a pretty big mistake. Either that or you are begging the question. I don't think you quite read all my posts on that. Not that it matters- just that I think I accounted for that in some of the other posts I made. Look 3 posts before the one you quoted. Edited October 11, 2017 by mfbukowski
HappyJackWagon Posted October 11, 2017 Posted October 11, 2017 1 hour ago, mnn727 said: Sometimes we don't know why God calls us, but I sensed a pattern in my callings the first few years after I joined. I was called to callings that helped me improve an area I needed improvement in. I didn't like speaking in public, I was called as a teacher int he EQ and became good at public speaking. I was very unorganized and I received a calling as Ward Clerk -- I had to improve my organization skills, etc. The Lord knows what we need and if the leaders making the callings both ask Him and listen, then I agree there are no incorrect callings. That "if" is a massively HUGE qualifier that Pres. Eyring did not use. He did not use a qualifier. If he had, I wouldn't have an issue. "If" matters. 2
Calm Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, JAHS said: I guess the victims of such perpetrators will be used to stand as a witness against them at judgment and the victims will somehow be compensated in the next life if they can endure to the end in this life. I am not sure what you mean by compensated, but the Atonement promises healing of all wounds and eternal progression promises no limitations we don't self impose, imo, so I don't see anything else we need desire. Edited October 12, 2017 by Calm
changed Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, JAHS said: I guess the victims of such perpetrators will be used to stand as a witness against them at judgment and the victims will somehow be compensated in the next life if they can endure to the end in this life. No no, The little children are supposed to forgive the high priests who molested them - not stand against them. There is no compensation, everyone is 100% forgiven, and everyone gets their 100% exaltation in the end. DC 64:9 ... he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. Edited October 12, 2017 by changed
changed Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Calm said: I am not sure what you mean by compensated, but the Atonement promises healing of all wounds and eternal progression promises no limitations we don't self impose, imo, so I don't see anything else we need desire. Yes - we are supposed to love the sinners, embrace them, forgive them... Love the sinners, hate the victims, blame the victims, curse the victims - if the victims do not forgive and embrace their abusers, the greater sin falls onto the heads of the little abused children. Those little children should have worn more modest clothing, their parents should have taught them better manners, those children should have been more careful. Edited October 12, 2017 by changed
changed Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, mnn727 said: God is just. You do understand that there is life after death? Awww yes, the old "everything will be fixed in the next life" excuse. It's completely fine if their current life was taken because anything they can learn here, they can also learn in heaven... ....And after they had done this thing, they did murder them in a most cruel manner, torturing their bodies even unto death; and after they have done this, they devour their flesh like unto wild beasts... This current life is completely pointless if all we ever needed to learn and gain we could gain in the afterlife. Edited October 12, 2017 by changed
strappinglad Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, changed said: Love the sinners, hate the victims, blame the victims, curse the victims - if the victims do not forgive and embrace their abuseres, the greater sin falls onto the heads of the little abused children. Seriously? Witnesses can forgive and still testify against an abuser. I have heard several times about a woman who was raped, testifying against the man and also testifying that she forgave him for her own peace. 2
Calm Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) 33 minutes ago, changed said: Yes - we are supposed to love the sinners, embrace them, forgive them... Love the sinners, hate the victims, blame the victims, curse the victims - if the victims do not forgive and embrace their abusers, the greater sin falls onto the heads of the little abused children. Those little children should have worn more modest clothing, their parents should have taught them better manners, those children should have been more careful. I think you may be overreacting as I don't see any implication for your interpretation even in the above. Millstones and all that would indicate otherwise. Nor have I seen any suggestion in Church teachings that children provoke their abusers into abusing them. As far as the D&C is concerned, I cannot imagine it would do the victims any good to hold on to their pain for eons when by releasing it, they free themselves from the last hold the perpetrator has over them. As far as the perpetrators, they either have to repent or they will be suffering for their own sins. If they truly repent and change and not just to avoid pain, but because they no longer want to abuse others, if they are mentally ill and can be healed, do you believe they still need to be punished no matter what? If so, what will that accomplish in the long run for victims? As for the next life promises, who is it excusing in your view? Certainly not anyone who does not act to protect children from harm to the best of their ability (millstones). Perhaps you are thinking we are excusing God? What is your solution to the problem? God does not exist is the only that makes sense to me if one rejects that somehow pain and suffering in this life can be healed in this one or if not now, then in the next one. Edited October 12, 2017 by Calm 2
Calm Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 30 minutes ago, changed said: Awww yes, the old "everything will be fixed in the next life" excuse. It's completely fine if their current life was taken because anything they can learn here, they can also learn in heaven... ....And after they had done this thing, they did murder them in a most cruel manner, torturing their bodies even unto death; and after they have done this, they devour their flesh like unto wild beasts... This current life is completely pointless if all we ever needed to learn and gain we could gain in the afterlife. Is our youth pointless if we could learn all we learned then as adults? 1
changed Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 7 hours ago, Calm said: I think you may be overreacting as I don't see any implication for your interpretation even in the above. Millstones and all that would indicate otherwise. Nor have I seen any suggestion in Church teachings that children provoke their abusers into abusing them. As far as the D&C is concerned, I cannot imagine it would do the victims any good to hold on to their pain for eons when by releasing it, they free themselves from the last hold the perpetrator has over them. As far as the perpetrators, they either have to repent or they will be suffering for their own sins. If they truly repent and change and not just to avoid pain, but because they no longer want to abuse others, if they are mentally ill and can be healed, do you believe they still need to be punished no matter what? If so, what will that accomplish in the long run for victims? As for the next life promises, who is it excusing in your view? Certainly not anyone who does not act to protect children from harm to the best of their ability (millstones). Perhaps you are thinking we are excusing God? What is your solution to the problem? God does not exist is the only that makes sense to me if one rejects that somehow pain and suffering in this life can be healed in this one or if not now, then in the next one. Alma and Amulek did not "act to protect children from harm". Apparently god does not want his prophets to protect children from harm, apparently god is the one calling perverts to serve in the bishoprics, because, you know, if they are not allowed to molest children then god would not be allowed to "judge them. 10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; tell me, if you walked into a situation where a child was being hurt - and the spirit constrained you to sit and watch rather than help, would you obey god? what would you think of god? The solution to the problem? The solution is educate and test everyone in a more humane way.
changed Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 7 hours ago, Calm said: Is our youth pointless if we could learn all we learned then as adults? Apparently children who die young can be educated in the millennium - can gain their knowledge in heaven rather than on earth. If it is possible to be educated humanely in heaven, then what is the point of all the pain and suffering on earth?
mnn727 Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 8 hours ago, changed said: Yes - we are supposed to love the sinners, embrace them, forgive them... Love the sinners, hate the victims, blame the victims, curse the victims - if the victims do not forgive and embrace their abusers, the greater sin falls onto the heads of the little abused children. Those little children should have worn more modest clothing, their parents should have taught them better manners, those children should have been more careful. I think you need more help than can be given on a message board. Please for your own sake, get it. 1
changed Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, strappinglad said: Seriously? Witnesses can forgive and still testify against an abuser. I have heard several times about a woman who was raped, testifying against the man and also testifying that she forgave him for her own peace. did she also agree to live eternally in heaven with him? Edited October 12, 2017 by changed
JAHS Posted October 12, 2017 Author Posted October 12, 2017 8 hours ago, changed said: No no, The little children are supposed to forgive the high priests who molested them - not stand against them. There is no compensation, everyone is 100% forgiven, and everyone gets their 100% exaltation in the end. DC 64:9 ... he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. “For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved. “What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.” (Alma 42:24–25.) We can personally forgive the perpetrator; so can Christ, but not at the cost of justice.
CV75 Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 17 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Where does he talk about "perfect callings"? Didn't he say there are no mistakes in callings? If there are no mistakes, doesn't that mean they are perfect? I'm not sure why you are arguing that point. Follow the logic here. Jesus is involved with the day to day operations of the church in directing leaders. Because he is involved there are no errors in callings (thus making them perfect). Because there are no errors in callings we can have confidence in those who are leading us and that they'll do things in the Lord's way. Do you see how that's circular in how it calls for us to trust leaders, except it begins with trusting Jesus and ends with trusting men. And do you see how "error free callings" creates a test, wherein if someone does spot an error, a problem is created? The "evidence" I was referring to is the perfect calling which indicates Christ's involvement, yet if there are imperfect calls, then Christ isn't doing a very good job or he isn't really as involved as Eyring suggests. BTW- sometimes judgment shouldn't be delayed. Sometimes judgment is required to protect us and others from abuse or other harm. I seem to recall a recent talk by Elder Rasband talking about accepting the first prompting and acting on it. If the spirit prompts that there is a problem with a leader or someone serving in a calling, it would seem Rasband would want us to respond immediately, and not delay. I'm still not following -- the simplest of presuppositions is getting in the way from the get-go, not mention a detour from the path of the talk.
changed Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 10 minutes ago, JAHS said: “For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved. “What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.” (Alma 42:24–25.) We can personally forgive the perpetrator; so can Christ, but not at the cost of justice. The whole atonement thing does not make sense to me. It is not just for one person to die for the sins of another.
changed Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 45 minutes ago, mnn727 said: I think you need more help than can be given on a message board. Please for your own sake, get it. I need to know who god is, and it is impossible to talk frankly about anything at church.
CV75 Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 On 10/11/2017 at 1:47 AM, SmileyMcGee said: Well-stated and eloquently put. To be honest Robert, if your brand of Mormonism or Mark's was consciously and deliberately preached and accepted by the general membership and leadership of the Church, it would make sundays much more tolerable. But as much as I want to I honestly don't see it. That is a very strict requirement! I do not think Mark and Robert find Sundays intolerable; I doubt they would discourage anyone from doing good and enjoying Sundays, no matter how they might conceptualize God's "omni-" attributes, or how consciously and deliberately they accept them and put their beliefs into action (preaching included!). Are we to be so intolerant of poetic and symbolic language and a kind of "hyperbole", which seems relatively appropriate considering the Topic / Subject, to not enjoy Sundays?
mnn727 Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 1 hour ago, changed said: I need to know who god is, and it is impossible to talk frankly about anything at church. I have a feeling you don't like the answer your hearing. I sense a lot of hurt and anger in your posts and its doing you no good. Ask your Bishop to get you an appointment with LDS Social Services, they have professionals there that are also LDS and can assist you more than this message board ever will.
Calm Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 1 hour ago, changed said: I need to know who god is, and it is impossible to talk frankly about anything at church. No one can tell you that. You can only discover him by encountering him yourself.
rockpond Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 23 hours ago, CV75 said: And I think he has a broader message about that as well. His counsel “is to delay such judgments until you can better see what the Lord sees. The judgment you need to make, instead, is that you have the capacity to receive revelation and to act on it fearlessly.” “My purpose tonight is to build your faith that God directs you in your service to Him. And even more importantly, my hope is to build your faith that the Lord is inspiring the imperfect persons He has called as your leaders.” “Your leader in the Lord’s Church may seem to you weak and human or may appear to you strong and inspired. The fact is that every leader is a mixture of those traits and more. What helps servants of the Lord who are called to lead us is when we can see them as the Lord did when He called them… “The Lord sees His servants perfectly. He sees their potential and their future. And He knows how their very nature can be changed. He also knows how they can be changed by their experiences with the people they will lead.” Great counsel. I just want to be careful because I have seen damage done when the assumption is made that EVERY calling came as direct inspiration from the Lord. Acknowledging that the Lord inspires leaders in ways that may seem counter to our own thoughts is critical. Understanding that sometimes those well meaning and sincere leaders extend calls that weren't the result of inspiration is also important.
The Nehor Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 2 hours ago, changed said: Alma and Amulek did not "act to protect children from harm". Apparently god does not want his prophets to protect children from harm, apparently god is the one calling perverts to serve in the bishoprics, because, you know, if they are not allowed to molest children then god would not be allowed to "judge them. 10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; tell me, if you walked into a situation where a child was being hurt - and the spirit constrained you to sit and watch rather than help, would you obey god? what would you think of god? The solution to the problem? The solution is educate and test everyone in a more humane way. If you have a better way you should have spoken up at the council meeting and presented a third option. 1
The Nehor Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 1 hour ago, changed said: The whole atonement thing does not make sense to me. It is not just for one person to die for the sins of another. One person did not. A God did. It was not a human sacrifice. 1 hour ago, changed said: I need to know who god is, and it is impossible to talk frankly about anything at church. Serve God and you will know Him.
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