No mistakes made in callings

[CV75]

15 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Technically President Eyring is correct in that the Lord doesn't make mistakes but the men making decisions and extending calls certainly do (and I obviously include myself in that).

And I think he has a broader message about that as well. His counsel “is to delay such judgments until you can better see what the Lord sees. The judgment you need to make, instead, is that you have the capacity to receive revelation and to act on it fearlessly.”

“My purpose tonight is to build your faith that God directs you in your service to Him. And even more importantly, my hope is to build your faith that the Lord is inspiring the imperfect persons He has called as your leaders.”

“Your leader in the Lord’s Church may seem to you weak and human or may appear to you strong and inspired. The fact is that every leader is a mixture of those traits and more. What helps servants of the Lord who are called to lead us is when we can see them as the Lord did when He called them…

“The Lord sees His servants perfectly. He sees their potential and their future. And He knows how their very nature can be changed. He also knows how they can be changed by their experiences with the people they will lead.”

[hope_for_things]

12 hours ago, SmileyMcGee said:

Per lds.org under Gospel Topics, God the Father:

"God the Father is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things. He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things."

https://www.lds.org/topics/god-the-father?lang=eng

Per the Bible dictionary under "God":

"...God created all things and is the ruler of the universe, being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent..."

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/god

I already agreed that some scriptures could be interpreted the way you are saying, I'm asking you a deeper question, and that is how do you reconcile these descriptions for God with the others that I brought to your attention.  All these descriptions are in the cannon and part of Mormon teachings.  What kind of a God do you think exists, taking all the scriptures and your personal experiences into account.  Let go, use the force here Luke

[CV75]

3 minutes ago, Gray said:

Giving a child molester to a calling that interacts with children is like putting a fox in a hen house. The end result is inevitable. So if God isn't deliberately trying to get children molested, God cannot possibly be behind the calling of a child molester these kinds of callings - therefore some callings are a mistake.

I don't follow or appreciate the logic here; that shouldn't be a surprise give my prior posts ; may i suggest you spend a little more time with Alma 14, and   Posted 2 minutes ago as well.

[Gray]

11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I don't follow or appreciate the logic here; that shouldn't be a surprise give my prior posts ; may i suggest you spend a little more time with Alma 14, and   Posted 2 minutes ago as well.

If you knowingly hired a child molester to a position dealing with children, you'd open yourself up to all kinds of legal liability, and rightly so. If we can figure out that this is a bad idea, surely God can as well.

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, Gray said:

Yes, but there's a difference between allowing people to sin and deliberately putting events into motion that directly cause harm. Therefore some callings are in error.

If God knows the end from the beginning then that is a distinction without a difference. Putting Cain and Abel in the same family deliberately put events in motion that would end in murder and God did it anyways.

23 minutes ago, Gray said:

Then the calling must have been a mistake.

Why? Maybe it exposed the sinner more quickly so they could get help? Maybe (and I am not happy saying this) suffering this kind of attack and the recovery from it will teach the victim important lessons and lead to growth? Is it that different from crippling physical, emotional, and mental disabilities he allows so many to endure that cause suffering I cannot understand?

This world is not a nice place. It is not the way the Universe usually works. God died so it could be fixed and all wounds healed. God saw all those wounds before they happened and the suffering they could cause and knew it was worth it. I have a hard time understanding that but I do believe it.

[JAHS]

21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Maybe (and I am not happy saying this) suffering this kind of attack and the recovery from it will teach the victim important lessons and lead to growth?

Or it causes the victim to go into a deep depression, not able to trust the church or it's leaders anymore and as a result leave the church. It certainly is a test but not sure it's a fair test.

Generally speaking and in most cases President Eyring is right and perhaps that's what he is referring to. If you asked him one on one about a particular severe situation or case he might agree that a certain calling for a certain person who did some terrible things was a mistake made by those who called the person, but we can't blame God for it.  

[Gray]

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If God knows the end from the beginning then that is a distinction without a difference. Putting Cain and Abel in the same family deliberately put events in motion that would end in murder and God did it anyways.

Yes, that's the problem of evil, to which there is no solution that does not take away God's omnipotence/omniscience. Some, like Robert, are arguing for just that, which is wise.

 

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Why? Maybe it exposed the sinner more quickly so they could get help? Maybe (and I am not happy saying this) suffering this kind of attack and the recovery from it will teach the victim important lessons and lead to growth? Is it that different from crippling physical, emotional, and mental disabilities he allows so many to endure that cause suffering I cannot understand?

This is a very bad idea. Teaching an important lesson by abusing them? Rape is not a life lesson. The tree that is eaten by termites is not left stronger for the experience.

 

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This world is not a nice place. It is not the way the Universe usually works. God died so it could be fixed and all wounds healed. God saw all those wounds before they happened and the suffering they could cause and knew it was worth it. I have a hard time understanding that but I do believe it.

If God is calling child molesters to be bishops, then he's intentionally making the world a worse place.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

And I think he has a broader message about that as well. His counsel “is to delay such judgments until you can better see what the Lord sees. The judgment you need to make, instead, is that you have the capacity to receive revelation and to act on it fearlessly.”

 

“My purpose tonight is to build your faith that God directs you in your service to Him. And even more importantly, my hope is to build your faith that the Lord is inspiring the imperfect persons He has called as your leaders.”

 

“Your leader in the Lord’s Church may seem to you weak and human or may appear to you strong and inspired. The fact is that every leader is a mixture of those traits and more. What helps servants of the Lord who are called to lead us is when we can see them as the Lord did when He called them…

 

“The Lord sees His servants perfectly. He sees their potential and their future. And He knows how their very nature can be changed. He also knows how they can be changed by their experiences with the people they will lead.”

 

 

 

Yes, but I think Pres. Eyring is undermining his own message by using perfect callings as an evidence of the way the Lord directs the church.

People will either A. figure Jesus isn't really directing the work because they can personally think of horrible matches of people to callings and therefore won't trust Pres. Eyring's assertion, or B. They will think Jesus isn't doing a very good job of directing the church.

Or someone could simply believe that Eyring is really overreaching on this and dismiss his comments as aspirational but unrealistic.

 

The other unfortunate byproduct of the claim of perfect callings is it blames the victims who may have been legitimately harmed by people in callings because Eyring seems to be suggesting that they withhold judgment of the individual who caused the harm instead of recognizing the problem and protecting themselves from harm.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

If you knowingly hired a child molester to a position dealing with children, you'd open yourself up to all kinds of legal liability, and rightly so. If we can figure out that this is a bad idea, surely God can as well.

Again, I don't follow or appreciate the logic here, and don't see the connection to Alma 14 or Elder Eyring's points.

[CV75]

19 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yes, but I think Pres. Eyring is undermining his own message by using perfect callings as an evidence of the way the Lord directs the church.

People will either A. figure Jesus isn't really directing the work because they can personally think of horrible matches of people to callings and therefore won't trust Pres. Eyring's assertion, or B. They will think Jesus isn't doing a very good job of directing the church.

Or someone could simply believe that Eyring is really overreaching on this and dismiss his comments as aspirational but unrealistic.

The other unfortunate byproduct of the claim of perfect callings is it blames the victims who may have been legitimately harmed by people in callings because Eyring seems to be suggesting that they withhold judgment of the individual who caused the harm instead of recognizing the problem and protecting themselves from harm.

That is a lot to presuppose. Where does he talk about perfect callings? Where does he make any mention of evidence? Your list is an example of the kinds of hasty judgements that can be made.

But what he actually taught about faith is more relevant to the counsel as to how we can understand the Lord’s involvement in calling people, how to view positions of trust, and to delay judgement upon individuals in relation to those two things.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Gray said:

Great points.

Side note: isn't the idea of an immortal soul also a Greek theological construct?

Yes, but the ultimate question is whether that immortal soul (common to many cultures) was created by the Great Uncaused Cause.

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, SmileyMcGee said:

Well-stated and eloquently put. To be honest Robert, if your brand of Mormonism or Mark's was consciously and deliberately preached and accepted by the general membership and leadership of the Church, it would make sundays much more tolerable. But as much as I want to I honestly don't see it. 

All of us are prisoners of a common culture, so you are likely correct to doubt that the Grundschaft of Mormonism will be widely preached any time soon.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

Or it causes the victim to go into a deep depression, not able to trust the church or it's leaders anymore and as a result leave the church. It certainly is a test but not sure it's a fair test.

Generally speaking and in most cases President Eyring is right and perhaps that's what he is referring to. If you asked him one on one about a particular severe situation or case he might agree that a certain calling for a certain person who did some terrible things was a mistake made by those who called the person, but we can't blame God for it.  

Why is it not a fair test? Abraham sacrificing Isaac was not a fair test. People being raped and then they and their loved ones being commanded to forgive is not a fair test. I think God is not operating under our definition of fairness.

 

I can blame God for it. He could have done any number of things to prevent someone from getting a calling and doing it in a horribly wrong way. God did not. When you have all power you are responsible for things. If someone falls off a high building and you are walking next to Superman and both of you see it and he does nothing that death is on him because he could, at no risk to himself, have prevented it. God could prevent all kinds of atrocities and horrors with ease. God operates under rules on this Earth as part of our testing and allows these things to happen. The only way it makes sense is via the atonement where God can heal the innocent victim and right the wrong.

2 hours ago, Gray said:

Yes, that's the problem of evil, to which there is no solution that does not take away God's omnipotence/omniscience. Some, like Robert, are arguing for just that, which is wise.

 

This is a very bad idea. Teaching an important lesson by abusing them? Rape is not a life lesson. The tree that is eaten by termites is not left stronger for the experience.

 

If God is calling child molesters to be bishops, then he's intentionally making the world a worse place.

I disagree with that solution to the problem of evil.

I have met Holocaust survivors who were stronger for the experience. I have seen people dealing with horrible conditions rise above them. I am of the belief that every pain, indignity, and ounce of suffering can be turned to progress either then, in the future, or in heaven. God does not allow suffering to no purpose. That is my method of dealing with the problem of evil. That does not mean I can explain 'why' in any specific instance but I trust that God has seen the reason.

God made the world a worst place much earlier when he sent one of his children to earth knowing in advance that they would abuse a child. I do not see why allowing such a person to be a bishop is the line that should not be crossed by God.

[changed]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is not okay. It takes a suffering and murdered God to heal. God allows people to sin so the judgement against them will be just unless they repent.

Everyone is a product of their environment.  The "sinners" can simply blame their behavior on their environment - their own educational experiences, and so on and so forth.  No judgement against anyone is just, because no one has the same experiences, no one has the same accountability, no one has the same knowledge or understanding.  "If I had been raised in a normal and caring family, with a better education, I would have never done xyz" ... or "If only I knew  ________________" fill in the blank.  

One person who makes it to heaven?  well perhaps they would not have gone to heaven if they grew up in a different part of town...

This other person who ends up in outer-darkness?  well perhaps they would have made it to heaven if they had grown up in another part of town...

I do not see any logically consistent way for anyone to be fairly judged after this life.

Edited October 11, 2017 by changed

[mnn727]

5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The claim of perfect callings is rubbish.

Even IF Jesus personally directed every minute detail of church leadership including the issue and release of every calling, for this to be true we would need to believe that not only is Jesus perfect, but so is every called leader. No one believes that every leader perfectly hears every prompting or responds to it exactly as God would want. Leaders are not perfect. That means they will make mistakes, including in who they call.

Claiming perfection in callings is not only a simplistic approach to faith, but it's also harmful because believing in perfection of calls will cause many of us to accept behavior and teachings from leaders that we shouldn't accept. If we believe that 1 horrible leader was called as a test for us, then we have a poor view of who God is. I don't believe in a trickster God and I don't believe in a jerk God. 

If we accept that God works with fallible humans then we MUST accept that those fallible humans will make mistakes. Any other claim is simply unsustainable.

Sometimes we don't know why God calls us, but I sensed a pattern in my callings the first few years after I joined. I was called to callings that helped me improve an area I needed improvement in. I didn't like speaking in public, I was called as a teacher int he EQ and became good at public speaking.  I was very unorganized and I received a calling as Ward Clerk -- I had to improve my organization skills, etc.

The Lord knows what we need and if the leaders making the callings both ask Him and listen,  then I agree there are no incorrect callings.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, changed said:

Everyone is a product of their environment.  The "sinners" can simply blame their behavior on their environment - their own educational experiences, and so on and so forth.  No judgement against anyone is just, because no one has the same experiences, no one has the same accountability, no one has the same knowledge or understanding.  "If I had been raised in a normal and caring family, with a better education, I would have never done xys" ... or "If only I had ________________" fill in the blank.  

I do not see any logically consistent way for anyone to be fairly judged after this life.

How about a God who through the atonement lived their life with them and understands their environment, temptations, struggles, and desires perfectly?

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

So sorry that happened to you.

Sometimes that is the way life is.  There are evil people in this world. It is our job to know that bad things sometimes happen to good people and try, hard as it may be, to learn something from it.

I hope you can work this all out in you mind at least with God's help.

Yet President Eyring says there are no mistakes in callings. This seems like a pretty big mistake.  

[mnn727]

13 minutes ago, changed said:

Everyone is a product of their environment.  The "sinners" can simply blame their behavior on their environment - their own educational experiences, and so on and so forth. 

No, I disagree 100% because even within their environment, education, etc, they have choices. Did they choose the right, the good, the fair? or did they choose the easy, the sin, and that which hurt others?

God will give everyone a FAIR chance to accept the Gospel in this life or the next.  He knows what a fair chance is and whats in your heart.

And it takes a very special type of person and sin to reach the outer darkness. very few people are even capable of reaching it.

[changed]

14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

How about a God who through the atonement lived their life with them and understands their environment, temptations, struggles, and desires perfectly?

Such a God would place them in the best environment, allowing them to succeed, educating them correctly so they would never hurt another.  Ignorance is innocence - we are all ignornat, there is no just judgement because of our limited knowledge.... "if only I had known..... "     

Do you think it is just to condemn someone for their ignorance?  

[changed]

4 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

No, I disagree 100% because even within their environment, education, etc, they have choices. Did they choose the right, the good, the fair? or did they choose the easy, the sin, and that which hurt others?

God will give everyone a FAIR chance to accept the Gospel in this life or the next.  He knows what a fair chance is and whats in your heart.

And it takes a very special type of person and sin to reach the outer darkness. very few people are even capable of reaching it.

Life is not fair, everyone is not given an equal chance..... nothing is just.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

That is a lot to presuppose. Where does he talk about perfect callings? Where does he make any mention of evidence? Your list is an example of the kinds of hasty judgements that can be made.

 

But what he actually taught about faith is more relevant to the counsel as to how we can understand the Lord’s involvement in calling people, how to view positions of trust, and to delay judgement upon individuals in relation to those two things.

 

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Where does he talk about "perfect callings"? Didn't he say there are no mistakes in callings? If there are no mistakes, doesn't that mean they are perfect? I'm not sure why you are arguing that point.

Follow the logic here.

Jesus is involved with the day to day operations of the church in directing leaders. Because he is involved there are no errors in callings (thus making them perfect). Because there are no errors in callings we can have confidence in those who are leading us and that they'll do things in the Lord's way. Do you see how that's circular in how it calls for us to trust leaders, except it begins with trusting Jesus and ends with trusting men. And do you see how "error free callings" creates a test, wherein if someone does spot an error, a problem is created? The "evidence" I was referring to is the perfect calling which indicates Christ's involvement, yet if there are imperfect calls, then Christ isn't doing a very good job or he isn't really as involved as Eyring suggests.

 

BTW- sometimes judgment shouldn't be delayed. Sometimes judgment is required to protect us and others from abuse or other harm. I seem to recall a recent talk by Elder Rasband talking about accepting the first prompting and acting on it. If the spirit prompts that there is a problem with a leader or someone serving in a calling, it would seem Rasband would want us to respond immediately, and not delay.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

And it takes a very special type of person and sin to reach the outer darkness. very few people are even capable of reaching it.

Challenge Accepted!

[The Nehor]

10 minutes ago, changed said:

Such a God would place them in the best environment, allowing them to succeed, educating them correctly so they would never hurt another.  Ignorance is innocence - we are all ignornat, there is no just judgement because of our limited knowledge.... "if only I had known..... "     

Do you think it is just to condemn someone for their ignorance?  

So instead of a test for godhood you want a special ed test that is basically unfailable? What would that prove? How would that give anyone enough experience with evil to overcome it? Not seeing the point of your test.

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, changed said:

Life is not fair, everyone is not given an equal chance..... nothing is just.

End all suffering! Burn the world!!!!!

[Calm]

3 hours ago, JAHS said:

Or it causes the victim to go into a deep depression, not able to trust the church or it's leaders anymore and as a result leave the church. It certainly is a test but not sure it's a fair test..  

It wouldn't be if this life is all there is.

Since we don't know what happened before or what will happen afterwards nor do we know what those who suffer are like in their total, eternal natures, we cannot judge either the fairness or even the actual impact of what are to us horrific situations.  For all we know, the worst things that can happen to us in the here and now are the equivalent to our eternal selves of a broken bone that is excrutiating and may feel like forever to endure while healing when experienced, but once healed can leave the bone as healthy as if it never happened and the only reason we fear the suffering so much is the disconnect we currently have with much of our Being that prevents us from both placing it in contact and having the ability to control the pain for that part of our self that we are currently aware of.