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If you're not married by 25?


poptart

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25 minutes ago, poptart said:

Heard that when one of my exes showed me the singles ward a long time ago and an odd friend mentioned it, what does it mean?  Sounds like it's pushing marraige. 

No sure what you are referring to.
There is an old quote attributed to Brigham Young that "a young man who is not married by 25 is a menace to society", although the age in the quote ranges anywhere from 21 to 27, society is sometimes replaced with another term, and there is no original quote that can be located by Young.

Best summary of the issue I can find is:

  • Though the ultimate goal is the same, the pressures that single men and women face during the journey vary. In a 1996 interview with Mike Wallace on 60 Minutes, All-Pro quarterback Steve Young, a direct descendant of Prophet Brigham Young, tried to explain what it’s like to be 34, single, and Mormon. “You want to talk about the pressure I feel?” Young asked Wallace. “Brigham Young once said…that anyone over 27 years of age that’s not married is a menace to society. So here’s my [great-great-great] grandfather telling me to get with it. You don’t think I feel the pressure? I guarantee it.” 

    “Our boys, when they arrive at the years of maturity and can take care of a wife, should get married, and there should not be a lot of young men growing up in our midst who ought to be, but ar not married. While I do not make the remark to apply to individual cases, I am firmly of the opinion that a large number of unmarried men, over the age of twenty-four years, is a dangerous element in any community, and an element upon which society should look with a jealous eye. For every man knowing himself, knows how his fellow-man is constituted; and if men do not marry, they are too apt to do something worse. Then, brethren, encourage our young men to marry, and see that they are furnished employment, so that they can marry.” (George F. Gibbs, “Discourse by Elder Geo. Q. Cannon…April 7, 1878,” Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p. 7)

    Hsu, Huan. "The Church of Latter-day Singles." Washington City Paper. 29 July 2005.

 

As for pushing marriage?  That should come as no surprise.  Marriage IS required in Mormon theology to achieve certain blessings.  But there are a lot of caveats and details that can be added to that basic statement.  Marriage is always a goal for faithful Mormons.

 

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China is beginning to reap the results of the one-child policy which produced an overabundance of males. There is a significant majority ( 70 % ? ) of males in the US under the age of 30 who are not married. A large percentage of black families in the US are headed by single mothers. The effects of this skewing of demographics will be / is being felt across society.

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2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

No sure what you are referring to.
There is an old quote attributed to Brigham Young that "a young man who is not married by 25 is a menace to society", although the age in the quote ranges anywhere from 21 to 27, society is sometimes replaced with another term, and there is no original quote that can be located by Young.

Best summary of the issue I can find is:

  • Though the ultimate goal is the same, the pressures that single men and women face during the journey vary. In a 1996 interview with Mike Wallace on 60 Minutes, All-Pro quarterback Steve Young, a direct descendant of Prophet Brigham Young, tried to explain what it’s like to be 34, single, and Mormon. “You want to talk about the pressure I feel?” Young asked Wallace. “Brigham Young once said…that anyone over 27 years of age that’s not married is a menace to society. So here’s my [great-great-great] grandfather telling me to get with it. You don’t think I feel the pressure? I guarantee it.” 

    “Our boys, when they arrive at the years of maturity and can take care of a wife, should get married, and there should not be a lot of young men growing up in our midst who ought to be, but ar not married. While I do not make the remark to apply to individual cases, I am firmly of the opinion that a large number of unmarried men, over the age of twenty-four years, is a dangerous element in any community, and an element upon which society should look with a jealous eye. For every man knowing himself, knows how his fellow-man is constituted; and if men do not marry, they are too apt to do something worse. Then, brethren, encourage our young men to marry, and see that they are furnished employment, so that they can marry.” (George F. Gibbs, “Discourse by Elder Geo. Q. Cannon…April 7, 1878,” Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p. 7)

    Hsu, Huan. "The Church of Latter-day Singles." Washington City Paper. 29 July 2005.

 

As for pushing marriage?  That should come as no surprise.  Marriage IS required in Mormon theology to achieve certain blessings.  But there are a lot of caveats and details that can be added to that basic statement.  Marriage is always a goal for faithful Mormons.

 

So, they push it even though the majority of people in the states are not exactly stable nor family material?  I look at the circumstances I came from and look around me, no thanks.  Seems foolish to push such a hard sale despite whats out there on divorce, what does the church do?  Impose blind faith?  Do x and this will happen?  Why not something more concrete like, oh, throwing money at people like the russians?

37 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The quote might be authentic but we do not have a primary source for it.

As a horrible menace to society myself I can say that other then the crippling loneliness and constantly  getting put on depressing SA committees that make you want to kill yourself it is not that bad.

Cheaper too, Most of the friends I had who were married had to pay for everything, may the gods help you if your partner has kids already, I knew a few who did that and they got raped in court.

24 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

China is beginning to reap the results of the one-child policy which produced an overabundance of males. There is a significant majority ( 70 % ? ) of males in the US under the age of 30 who are not married. A large percentage of black families in the US are headed by single mothers. The effects of this skewing of demographics will be / is being felt across society.

Lol not quite, they kinda found a solution to that problem.....

http://www.businessinsider.com/rural-chinese-men-are-buying-vietnamese-brides-for-3200-2014-8

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/06/chinese-workers-in-africa-who-marry-locals-face-puzzled-reception-at-home/240662/

 

Simple soution for the USA, make divorce a lot more difficult, reform child support laws to the point where the courts administer it, fine the hell out of someone for paternity fraud and make abortion a criminal offence after the first trimester, charge anyone who has one after the 1st trimester with manslaughter except in the case of rape or the risk of the mothers health, problem solved.  Oh, and any doctor who helps/performs an accessory.

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52 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

China is beginning to reap the results of the one-child policy which produced an overabundance of males. There is a significant majority ( 70 % ? ) of males in the US under the age of 30 who are not married. A large percentage of black families in the US are headed by single mothers. The effects of this skewing of demographics will be / is being felt across society.

Going off topic here since you went towards more of a socio-economic direction, here's something I posted once.

https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/germany/healthcare/pregnancy-birth/termination-abortion

Blame american degeneracy and stupidity as well as the exploitative nature of younger people, most people my age make me sick. 
Also, as far as population and genetic control goes, Iceland is doing a spectacular job of it.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/down-syndrome-iceland/

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1 hour ago, poptart said:

So, they push it even though the majority of people in the states are not exactly stable nor family material? 

Ideally a person works with their eternal companion (aka spouse) in building that home.  You don't get a fancy degree, a fancy car, and a fancy house and only after that "reward" yourself by finding a companion.  Rather (circumstances permitting) you build your metaphorical house with your companion. 

1 hour ago, poptart said:

 Seems foolish to push such a hard sale despite whats out there on divorce

People who marry old get divorced too.  

1 hour ago, poptart said:

Cheaper too, Most of the friends I had who were married had to pay for everything,

Getting married cost ~$20 bucks.  

What your friend paid for was all the ultimately unnecessary fancy party.

 

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5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:
  • .............................. see that they are furnished employment, so that they can marry.” (George F. Gibbs, “Discourse by Elder Geo. Q. Cannon…April 7, 1878,” Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p. 7)

    .................................................

Employment, secure and good employment, with future promotions possible is key to giving men the confidence they need to acquire a wife, and all the little kids that eventually tend to go with it.  Women too, gauge a man's value largely by his income and stability.

Yet, we live in a society today where fewer men and women get married than ever before, where people demand to live in large houses with all manner of expensive accoutrements, and in which it is "my way or the highway."  For decades now, as our urban areas turn into ever more dense megalopolises, people wander down the street with a dazed sense of anomie -- part of the "lonely crowd" which bedevils many of us.  At no time in history have so many people lived alone (per capita).  The Mormon community does exceptionally well in the midst of this odd condition of society.

Juliann Reynolds quotes Karpowitz and Mendelberg:

Quote

"A group where members function as an integrated unit is a group in which women are likely to feel comfortable and content."   Reynolds, "The Role of Women in Apologetics," in Van Dyke & Ericson, eds., Perspectives on Mormon Theology: Apologetics (SLC: Kofford, 2017), 152.

I dare say that this applies to men as well, making it much easier to get and stay married.

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7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

No sure what you are referring to.
There is an old quote attributed to Brigham Young that "a young man who is not married by 25 is a menace to society", although the age in the quote ranges anywhere from 21 to 27, society is sometimes replaced with another term, and there is no original quote that can be located by Young.

Best summary of the issue I can find is:

  • Though the ultimate goal is the same, the pressures that single men and women face during the journey vary. In a 1996 interview with Mike Wallace on 60 Minutes, All-Pro quarterback Steve Young, a direct descendant of Prophet Brigham Young, tried to explain what it’s like to be 34, single, and Mormon. “You want to talk about the pressure I feel?” Young asked Wallace. “Brigham Young once said…that anyone over 27 years of age that’s not married is a menace to society. So here’s my [great-great-great] grandfather telling me to get with it. You don’t think I feel the pressure? I guarantee it.” 

    “Our boys, when they arrive at the years of maturity and can take care of a wife, should get married, and there should not be a lot of young men growing up in our midst who ought to be, but ar not married. While I do not make the remark to apply to individual cases, I am firmly of the opinion that a large number of unmarried men, over the age of twenty-four years, is a dangerous element in any community, and an element upon which society should look with a jealous eye. For every man knowing himself, knows how his fellow-man is constituted; and if men do not marry, they are too apt to do something worse. Then, brethren, encourage our young men to marry, and see that they are furnished employment, so that they can marry.” (George F. Gibbs, “Discourse by Elder Geo. Q. Cannon…April 7, 1878,” Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p. 7)

    Hsu, Huan. "The Church of Latter-day Singles." Washington City Paper. 29 July 2005.

 

As for pushing marriage?  That should come as no surprise.  Marriage IS required in Mormon theology to achieve certain blessings.  But there are a lot of caveats and details that can be added to that basic statement.  Marriage is always a goal for faithful Mormons.

 

Also, I think “pushing marriage” is very healthy for society. Not “pushing marriage” has, I think, been devestating to society. This is particularly true with the raise in fatherless homes. 

By “ pushing marriage” I mean t9 encourage and admonish it. I have a soon to be 19 year old and she’d love to be married but never has had a boyfriend. I do not “force her” into any relation and she is in no way diminished in value by me or her mother for being single, and never eill be but marriage has always been a goal we’ve taught. 

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16 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

No sure what you are referring to.
There is an old quote attributed to Brigham Young that "a young man who is not married by 25 is a menace to society", although the age in the quote ranges anywhere from 21 to 27, society is sometimes replaced with another term, and there is no original quote that can be located by Young.

 

Interestingly enough, the science fiction author Robert A. Heinlein once expressed this sentiment about how unmarried young men were menaces to society. Heinlein was not a theist.

This is because without the moderating influence of women, young men can be very disruptive.  It's not a religious principle, it's a universal truth.

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I don't know why people say that getting married is so hard. I've been married three times, and it never seemed particularly difficult to find a wonderful companion. The first time was a mess, and it ended in divorce, but that one was doomed from the start because she wasn't committed (although perhaps she should have been committed).

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2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Interestingly enough, the science fiction author Robert A. Heinlein once expressed this sentiment about how unmarried young men were menaces to society. Heinlein was not a theist.

This is because without the moderating influence of women, young men can be very disruptive.  It's not a religious principle, it's a universal truth.

Let's take a look at the divorce statistics, out of wedlock births etc.  Tell that to a man with a bit of common sense and the idea of a gold digger with an entitlement complex comes to mind.

11 hours ago, Darren10 said:

Also, I think “pushing marriage” is very healthy for society. Not “pushing marriage” has, I think, been devestating to society. This is particularly true with the raise in fatherless homes. 

By “ pushing marriage” I mean t9 encourage and admonish it. I have a soon to be 19 year old and she’d love to be married but never has had a boyfriend. I do not “force her” into any relation and she is in no way diminished in value by me or her mother for being single, and never eill be but marriage has always been a goal we’ve taught. 

May the gods help you if she closes poorly....

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I don't know why people say that getting married is so hard. I've been married three times, and it never seemed particularly difficult to find a wonderful companion. The first time was a mess, and it ended in divorce, but that one was doomed from the start because she wasn't committed (although perhaps she should have been committed).

You're not everyone.

 

34 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

The unofficial slogan of the Marines is to " Improvise, adapt, overcome " . This applies to marriage problems as well. I'm not saying marriage can be a battle.... well, it , on occasion , might seem like it. :unsure:

Just had a very leave a horrible marraige, he lost everything and came close to killing everyone in the house,  I was debating taking bets on which firearm he'd use first lol.  Joking aside the ex was cheating on him, I ask myself if I was in the same position what would I have done?  I would have snapped a lot faster,  he atleast left.

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2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I don't know why people say that getting married is so hard. I've been married three times, and it never seemed particularly difficult to find a wonderful companion. The first time was a mess, and it ended in divorce, but that one was doomed from the start because she wasn't committed (although perhaps she should have been committed).

I got engaged once and she ended up being literally committed. Some guys like to say girls go crazy over them but I have proof. ;) 

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2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I don't know why people say that getting married is so hard. I've been married three times, and it never seemed particularly difficult to find a wonderful companion. The first time was a mess, and it ended in divorce, but that one was doomed from the start because she wasn't committed (although perhaps she should have been committed).

I also have not really been in love with someone now for over a decade so that part of me may have broken a while back. Still attracted to people (physically and mentally) but the emotional connection just does not seem to be there at all. It is really annoying. Oh well.

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1 hour ago, poptart said:

Let's take a look at the divorce statistics, out of wedlock births etc.  Tell that to a man with a bit of common sense and the idea of a gold digger with an entitlement complex comes to mind.

May the gods help you if she closes poorly....

You're not everyone.

 

Just had a very leave a horrible marraige, he lost everything and came close to killing everyone in the house,  I was debating taking bets on which firearm he'd use first lol.  Joking aside the ex was cheating on him, I ask myself if I was in the same position what would I have done?  I would have snapped a lot faster,  he atleast left.

Note: no one here is advocating "pick a spouse stupidly".  We LDS are also not advocating "never pick a spouse because you might pick wrong".  Rather we advocate "being married is a good thing that we encourage.  Pick wisely and with God's guidance."

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1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Note: no one here is advocating "pick a spouse stupidly".  We LDS are also not advocating "never pick a spouse because you might pick wrong".  Rather we advocate "being married is a good thing that we encourage.  Pick wisely and with God's guidance."

What about the over abundance of garbage people?  Many people nowadays will die single and alone,  still a better choice than ending up miserable and screwed. 

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21 minutes ago, poptart said:

What about the over abundance of garbage people?  Many people nowadays will die single and alone,  still a better choice than ending up miserable and screwed. 

There's a middle ground between refusing to marry because you're waiting for the impossible "Mr. Perfect" and desperately embracing any horrible relationship.

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18 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

There's a middle ground between refusing to marry because you're waiting for the impossible "Mr. Perfect" and desperately embracing any horrible relationship.

And sometimes you see horrible relationships where both of them are horrible people. They tell themselves they deserve better but they really do not.

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42 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

There's a middle ground between refusing to marry because you're waiting for the impossible "Mr. Perfect" and desperately embracing any horrible relationship.

The middle ground is a very narrow place, I think it's a little unreasonable to push marraige considering the morals of people nowadays.  They won't budge on things even though they themselves have done nothing to warrant such rampant entitlement.  

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13 minutes ago, poptart said:

The middle ground is a very narrow place, I think it's a little unreasonable to push marraige considering the morals of people nowadays.  They won't budge on things even though they themselves have done nothing to warrant such rampant entitlement.  

I'm unsure what you're trying to say here.

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37 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I'm unsure what you're trying to say here.

What do you define as middle ground?  Seeb whats available out there lately?  Tattooed federated with 1+ bastards.   Finding a decient woman the likes of past generations had is very difficult.  Considering how states like wa make it easy to stick someone's boyfriend with child support makes marraige pretty unappealing considering what passes for decient in the USA nowadays. 

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