Virgin Mary statue

[3DOP]

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Please share them. Why do you believe in Catholicism? Do you believe Mary appeared to Cuauhtlatoatzin?   

No. I do not believe Mary appeared to Cuau..(I am not saying she didn't. I have never heard of it.). I believe that I believe in Catholicism for reasons that will bring glory to God, and not to myself. I am thankful that I do. I am working a ton of hours. If time permits, maybe I can give you a miracle or two on the weekend. Thanks for your more than respectful approach to this phenomenon with statues. I wouldn't have known! G'nite and God bless.

3DOP

[SamuelTheLamanite]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I don't know whether they are so-called "mirqacles," and the Roman Catholic Church has some very careful and serious methods for evaluating such claims.  For example, stone may simply survive better in tough circumstances, so that more than ordinary survival may be required in order to be regarded as "miraculous."

So what is a miracle in your view? You said "miracles have natural explanations", so is the Mary statue a miracle or not? How do you tell the difference? 

On 8/28/2017 at 4:29 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

Mormon's advice to Moroni:

So it was a miracle because it "gave them hope" as the CNN article says.  

[Rain]

On 8/28/2017 at 5:27 PM, Tacenda said:

I think there is possibly one truth, but not one religion. This gives me hope of a Saviour!!

ETA: What does it say for the many times the Angel Moroni has been struck by lightening? Currently the Bountiful Temple is in reconstruction. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865654861/When-lightning-strikes-an-Angel-Moroni-statue-does-what-hes-built-to-do.html

According to the article or says the statue is doing just what it is supposed to do. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Rain

[mfbukowski]

38 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

 If time permits, maybe I can give you a miracle or two on the weekend.

If you get time, I think Houston could use your help.

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

No. I do not believe Mary appeared to Cuau..(I am not saying she didn't. I have never heard of it.). I believe that I believe in Catholicism for reasons that will bring glory to God, and not to myself. I am thankful that I do. I am working a ton of hours. If time permits, maybe I can give you a miracle or two on the weekend. Thanks for your more than respectful approach to this phenomenon with statues. I wouldn't have known! G'nite and God bless.

3DOP

Saint Juan Diego Cuauhtlatoatzin, also known as Juan Diegotzil (1474–1548), a native of Mexico, is the first Roman Catholic indigenous saint from the Americas. He is said to have been granted an apparition of the Virgin Mary on four separate occasions in December 1531 at the hill of Tepeyac, then outside but now well within metropolitan Mexico City....

The Basilica of Guadalupe, located at the foot of the hill of Tepeyac, claims to possess Juan Diego's mantle or cloak (known as a tilma) on which an image of the Virgin is said to have been impressed by a miracle as a pledge of the authenticity of the apparitions. These apparitions and the imparting of the miraculous image (together known as the Guadalupe event, in Spanish "el acontecimiento Guadalupano") are the basis of Our Lady of Guadalupe, which is ubiquitous in Mexico, prevalent throughout the Spanish-speaking Americas, and increasingly widespread beyond. As a result, the Basilica of Guadalupe is now the world's major centre of pilgrimage for Roman Catholics, receiving 22 million visitors in 2010. Juan Diego was beatified in 1990 and canonized in 2002."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Diego

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20020731_juan-diego_en.html

"

St Juan Diego Cuauhtlatoatzin (1474-1548). Little is known about the life of Juan Diego before his conversion, but tradition and archaelogical and iconographical sources, along with the most important and oldest indigenous document on the event of Guadalupe, "El Nican Mopohua" (written in Náhuatl with Latin characters, 1556, by the Indigenous writer Antonio Valeriano), give some information on the life of the saint and the apparitions.

Juan Diego was born in 1474 with the name "Cuauhtlatoatzin" ("the talking eagle") in Cuautlitlán, today part of Mexico City, Mexico. He was a gifted member of the Chichimeca people, one of the more culturally advanced groups living in the Anáhuac Valley.

When he was 50 years old he was baptized by a Franciscan priest, Fr Peter da Gand, one of the first Franciscan missionaries. On 9 December 1531, when Juan Diego was on his way to morning Mass, the Blessed Mother appeared to him on Tepeyac Hill, the outskirts of what is now Mexico City. She asked him to go to the Bishop and to request in her name that a shrine be built at Tepeyac, where she promised to pour out her grace upon those who invoked her. The Bishop, who did not believe Juan Diego, asked for a sign to prove that the apparition was true. On 12 December, Juan Diego returned to Tepeyac. Here, the Blessed Mother told him to climb the hill and to pick the flowers that he would find in bloom. He obeyed, and although it was winter time, he found roses flowering. He gathered the flowers and took them to Our Lady who carefully placed them in his mantle and told him to take them to the Bishop as "proof". When he opened his mantle, the flowers fell on the ground and there remained impressed, in place of the flowers, an image of the Blessed Mother, the apparition at Tepeyac.

With the Bishop's permission, Juan Diego lived the rest of his life as a hermit in a small hut near the chapel where the miraculous image was placed for veneration. Here he cared for the church and the first pilgrims who came to pray to the Mother of Jesus.

Much deeper than the "exterior grace" of having been "chosen" as Our Lady's "messenger", Juan Diego received the grace of interior enlightenment and from that moment, he began a life dedicated to prayer and the practice of virtue and boundless love of God and neighbour. He died in 1548 and was buried in the first chapel dedicated to the Virgin of Guadalupe. He was beatified on 6 May 1990 by Pope John Paul II in the Basilica of Santa Maria di Guadalupe, Mexico City."

Edited August 30, 2017 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

No. I do not believe Mary appeared to Cuau..(I am not saying she didn't. I have never heard of it.). I believe that I believe in Catholicism for reasons that will bring glory to God, and not to myself. I am thankful that I do. I am working a ton of hours. If time permits, maybe I can give you a miracle or two on the weekend. Thanks for your more than respectful approach to this phenomenon with statues. I wouldn't have known! G'nite and God bless.

3DOP

Now I am curious.  You do not believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe?

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest.

....................................................  

Yes, and the people bowed and prayed to the neon god they made . . . 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fWyzwo1xg0 .

 

[mfbukowski]

24 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, and the people bowed and prayed to the neon god they made . . . 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fWyzwo1xg0 .

 

Quote

With a time-rusted compass blade
Aladdin and his lamp
Sits with Utopian hermit monks
Sidesaddle on the Golden Calf
And on their promises of paradise
You will not hear a laugh
All except inside the Gates of Eden

https://bobdylan.com/songs/gates-eden/

[SamuelTheLamanite]

On 8/28/2017 at 4:26 PM, The Nehor said:

If you want the cynical take they could have put it there after the fire. There are lots of other possibilities beyond God saved it via miracle or the devil saved it by miracle.

When can we call something a miracle?  If there is no other possibility it means we have a miracle? Please clarify that for us. I asked a similar question to Robert, but I feel he needs your help.   

Edited August 30, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[3DOP]

22 hours ago, Calm said:

Saint Juan Diego Cuauhtlatoatzin, also known as Juan Diegotzil (1474–1548), a native of Mexico, is the first Roman Catholic indigenous saint from the Americas. He is said to have been granted an apparition of the Virgin Mary on four separate occasions in December 1531 at the hill of Tepeyac, then outside but now well within metropolitan Mexico City....

The Basilica of Guadalupe, located at the foot of the hill of Tepeyac, claims to possess Juan Diego's mantle or cloak (known as a tilma) on which an image of the Virgin is said to have been impressed by a miracle as a pledge of the authenticity of the apparitions. These apparitions and the imparting of the miraculous image (together known as the Guadalupe event, in Spanish "el acontecimiento Guadalupano") are the basis of Our Lady of Guadalupe, which is ubiquitous in Mexico, prevalent throughout the Spanish-speaking Americas, and increasingly widespread beyond. As a result, the Basilica of Guadalupe is now the world's major centre of pilgrimage for Roman Catholics, receiving 22 million visitors in 2010. Juan Diego was beatified in 1990 and canonized in 2002."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Diego

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20020731_juan-diego_en.html

"

St Juan Diego Cuauhtlatoatzin (1474-1548). Little is known about the life of Juan Diego before his conversion, but tradition and archaelogical and iconographical sources, along with the most important and oldest indigenous document on the event of Guadalupe, "El Nican Mopohua" (written in Náhuatl with Latin characters, 1556, by the Indigenous writer Antonio Valeriano), give some information on the life of the saint and the apparitions.

Juan Diego was born in 1474 with the name "Cuauhtlatoatzin" ("the talking eagle") in Cuautlitlán, today part of Mexico City, Mexico. He was a gifted member of the Chichimeca people, one of the more culturally advanced groups living in the Anáhuac Valley.

When he was 50 years old he was baptized by a Franciscan priest, Fr Peter da Gand, one of the first Franciscan missionaries. On 9 December 1531, when Juan Diego was on his way to morning Mass, the Blessed Mother appeared to him on Tepeyac Hill, the outskirts of what is now Mexico City. She asked him to go to the Bishop and to request in her name that a shrine be built at Tepeyac, where she promised to pour out her grace upon those who invoked her. The Bishop, who did not believe Juan Diego, asked for a sign to prove that the apparition was true. On 12 December, Juan Diego returned to Tepeyac. Here, the Blessed Mother told him to climb the hill and to pick the flowers that he would find in bloom. He obeyed, and although it was winter time, he found roses flowering. He gathered the flowers and took them to Our Lady who carefully placed them in his mantle and told him to take them to the Bishop as "proof". When he opened his mantle, the flowers fell on the ground and there remained impressed, in place of the flowers, an image of the Blessed Mother, the apparition at Tepeyac.

With the Bishop's permission, Juan Diego lived the rest of his life as a hermit in a small hut near the chapel where the miraculous image was placed for veneration. Here he cared for the church and the first pilgrims who came to pray to the Mother of Jesus.

Much deeper than the "exterior grace" of having been "chosen" as Our Lady's "messenger", Juan Diego received the grace of interior enlightenment and from that moment, he began a life dedicated to prayer and the practice of virtue and boundless love of God and neighbour. He died in 1548 and was buried in the first chapel dedicated to the Virgin of Guadalupe. He was beatified on 6 May 1990 by Pope John Paul II in the Basilica of Santa Maria di Guadalupe, Mexico City."

Thank you cal. In answer to both you and Mark, yes I believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe. I had never heard, or had forgotten Bl. Juan Diego's surname, or other name. (Beatification is preliminary to canonization. The beatified are "Blessed". The canonized are "Saint") It is a remarkable story, and counter balances in the New World, from a Catholic perspective, the great loss of faith that many countries in Europe felt in the 16th Century.

His "tilma", the garment that Juan Diego wore is still on display in the basilica in Mexico City, showing the vision that Juan Diego apparently saw. In modern times, the tilma has been subject to more advanced scientific studies. In 1929, there was a new discovery involving a magnification of the eyes of the image of the woman, the Blessed Virgin Mary, as we Catholics think. Therein is a definite reflection of what she apparently saw. It is not visible without magnification, but there is an image in her eyes that reflects a man who fits the description of Bl. Juan Diego. Who would have painted something that cannot be seen with the naked eye in in the 16th Century?

As I said above to sunstoned, I appreciate our thread starter wondering if these recent statue miracles comes from the devil who masquerades as an angel of light. I am not familiar with the statues. But Guadalupe has been subjected to centuries of rigorous study. 

Having examined the claims, what else can Sam think? He is a convinced Mormon. I am on record here and there with saying the same of Book of Mormon origins. I hope LDS take it as a compliment coming from one who has complete faith in a different religion. I don't say the Book of Mormon is a hoax. I like it better when people say of our claims, that they are from the devil, than that they are just clever hoaxes.

3DOP 

 

[hagoth7]

On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 6:00 PM, 3DOP said:

 

I am Catholic, ...and I appreciate Samuel's speculations. It is more complimentary to be thought to be possibly Satanic, than to just have apparent miracles brushed off as hoaxes. Samuel is Mormon; he appreciates a phenomenon that he can't explain if Catholicism (devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary), were false. For the record, I know nothing about this stuff he has brought up. There are other miracles though, that seem more difficult to explain away, that have helped give me confidence in my faith.

3D, if I may explain my current stance on this.

If it were a statue of angel Moroni, I would be as nonplussed as I am of the Catholic examples stated earlier in this thread.

Reason being, I know that such votive figures are generally placed outside the perimeter of a home. Meaning if the home were to collapse inward, many such figures would still survive, whether they were statues of Mary, Joseph, Gabriel, Moroni, or even a garden gnome.

So I choose not to attach miraculous causes to such a survival...not because it was an image revered by Catholics or gnome lovers, and not because I doubt that God cares about preserving things that are valuable to us, but rather because any object being on the perimeter makes such survival much *more* (rather than much less) likely.

I prefer to preserve "miraculous" connotations for other kinds of preservation. But cheerfully grant others the right to disagree.

Fair 'nuf?

As to whether I'm a gnome lover, I take the 5th. (But I was recently referred to by one whippersnapper as Papa Smurf.)

Edited August 31, 2017 by hagoth7

[3DOP]

18 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

3D, if I may explain my current stance on this.

If it were a statue of angel Moroni, I would be as nonplussed as I am of the Catholic examples stated earlier in this thread.

Reason being, I know that such votive figures are generally placed outside the perimeter of a home. Meaning if the home were to collapse inward, many such figures would still survive, whether they were statues of Mary, Joseph, Gabriel, Moroni, or even a garden gnome.

So I choose not to attach miraculous causes to such a survival...not because it was an image revered by Catholics or gnome lovers, and not because I doubt that God cares about preserving things that are valuable to us, but rather because any object being on the perimeter makes such survival much *more* (rather than much less) likely.

I prefer to preserve "miraculous" connotations for other kinds of preservation. But cheerfully grant others the right to disagree.

Fair 'nuf?

As to whether I'm a gnome lover, I take the 5th. (But I was recently referred to by one whippersnapper as Papa Smurf.)

Yes, hagoth. I haven't looked into the statues at all. I wait for the Church to substantiate claims. It is the Church's "job", if you will, to look at miracle claims skeptically. Ultimately, it is counter productive to be gullible about these things. See what I have said about Guadalupe. I believe in miracles when the Church believes. I could say the same about Lourdes or Fatima. In those instances, the bishops in the region were very reluctant to accept claims. (Miracles are a public relations nightmare!)

[3DOP]

19 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

3D, if I may explain my current stance on this.

If it were a statue of angel Moroni, I would be as nonplussed as I am of the Catholic examples stated earlier in this thread.

Reason being, I know that such votive figures are generally placed outside the perimeter of a home. Meaning if the home were to collapse inward, many such figures would still survive, whether they were statues of Mary, Joseph, Gabriel, Moroni, or even a garden gnome.

So I choose not to attach miraculous causes to such a survival...not because it was an image revered by Catholics or gnome lovers, and not because I doubt that God cares about preserving things that are valuable to us, but rather because any object being on the perimeter makes such survival much *more* (rather than much less) likely.

I prefer to preserve "miraculous" connotations for other kinds of preservation. But cheerfully grant others the right to disagree.

Fair 'nuf?

As to whether I'm a gnome lover, I take the 5th. (But I was recently referred to by one whippersnapper as Papa Smurf.)

Totally fair 'nuf hagoth.

The Catholic Church has been traditionally tough on miracle claims. To some extent, it is the Church's mission to be skeptical. We have the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! Is this not enough? God is merciful, and miracles have continued. But the Church has always been fearful of gullibility. Things are lightening up in our era, miraculous claims are more easily accepted now without intense scrutiny, but that is another discussion. Real miracles are inevitable public relations nightmares for a bishop. The faithful become "fans", (short for "fanatic"). Bishops are supposed to ignore "fans". At Lourdes and Fatima for instance, the bishops were at first very opposed. She is now St. Bernadette. But as a youngster she was persecuted for being a visionary. Anyway, as for the statues, I neither deny nor affirm. I am pleased if they have given a non-Catholic pause to wonder.

But there are certainly other far more persuasive miracles than anything in our century for one inclined to become Catholic.

Edited...this is kind of a duplicate of the previous post which I thought was lost. I see the first post was not lost. G'nite.

Edited September 1, 2017 by 3DOP

[SamuelTheLamanite]

21 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

So I choose not to attach miraculous causes to such a survival...not because it was an image revered by Catholics or gnome lovers, and not because I doubt that God cares about preserving things that are valuable to us, but rather because any object being on the perimeter makes such survival much *more* (rather than much less) likely.

I prefer to preserve "miraculous" connotations for other kinds of preservation. But cheerfully grant others the right to disagree.

What is a miracle in your view? Is it something that can't be explained by science? or by rational thinking?

Edited September 1, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[hagoth7]

15 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

What is a miracle in your view?

Anything accomplished by God.

Whether it can (apparently) be explained away or not.

[theplains]

If you consider this a miracle of God, what would the damage to the Moroni statue by lightning be?
See http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865654826/Lightning-damages-Angel-Moroni-statue-atop-Bountiful-Temple.html
"Photos emailed to KSL from people in the area show part of statue's head missing and a hole in the back."

Let's not read too much into these things. A statue may have been undamaged, but unfortunately many people
suffered.

Jim

[SamuelTheLamanite]

4 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

Anything accomplished by God.

Whether it can (apparently) be explained away or not.

So how do you know God didn't save the statues? You wrote, "Statues of stone are rarely destroyed by fire...Yet I don't see divine significance in a statue of stone or kiln-fired clay/porcelain surviving a natural disaster"  Or was it something accomplished by him?

1 hour ago, theplains said:

If you consider this a miracle of God, what would the damage to the Moroni statue by lightning be?

Just something that happened. So what is a miracle in your view?

Edited September 1, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[hagoth7]

3 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

So how do you know God didn't save the statues?

I *don't* know.

Is there a reason I should?

 

As to the Moroni statue and lightning, I don't know about that either. Likely also something that just happened.

 

In neither case do I deem my knowing more about statues relevant to anyone's salvation. If you feel that is an erroneous stance, feel free to speak up.

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by hagoth7

[SamuelTheLamanite]

17 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

I *don't* know.

Is there a reason I should?

 

As to the Moroni statue and lightning, I don't know about that either. Likely also something that just happened.

 

In neither case do I deem my knowing more about statues relevant to anyone's salvation. If you feel that is an erroneous stance, feel free to speak up.

So for you a miracle is about the probability that God did something?

[hagoth7]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

So for you a miracle is about the probability that God did something?

Not in that sense.

For me, a miracle is something I believe God had a considerable hand in.

That said, some things that I believe are completely miraculous others would/do shrug at.

Miracles, like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder.

Edited September 2, 2017 by hagoth7

[Freedom]

How is preserving a statue over preserving a place of worship a miracle? Who does it benefit? No being catholic, I suppose I would not understand the significance, but there are many items that survive multiple disasters. Perhaps we should start be defining what a miracle is beyond simply something that cannot be explained. . 

[SamuelTheLamanite]

2 hours ago, Freedom said:

 Perhaps we should start be defining what a miracle is beyond simply something that cannot be explained. . 

Exactly! Many here are telling me that the statues surviving is not a miracle, but are not explaining how to identify a true miracle.

3 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

For me, a miracle is something I believe God had a considerable hand in.

I understand, so how do you identify a miracle? Do you simply know when you see it? For many it was God that had a considerable hand in saving the statues. Why? So people can have more faith and hope in God.

Edited September 3, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Freedom]

52 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Exactly! Many here are telling me that the statues surviving is not a miracle, but are not explaining how to identify a true miracle.

I understand, so how do you identify a miracle? Do you simply know when you see it? For many it was God that had a considerable hand in saving the statues. Why? So people can have more faith and hope in God.

Miracles are given after a trial of faith. It is a witness of God to those who sacrifice to serve him. Joseph saw God as did Jared in the Book of Mormon. The saints pleased for help as their crops were getting destroyed and God sent seagulls to eat the grasshoppers thereby saving their crops. The pattern is that we serve God and God reveals himself to us as a testimony, or he provides the sustenance of life we require to survive. A statue, in my opinion, does not match any known miracles as demonstrated in the scriptures. 

[SamuelTheLamanite]

41 minutes ago, Freedom said:

Miracles are given after a trial of faith.

Not necessarily. Paul, Alma, Nephi's brothers, Baal's Priests witnessed miracles. Some of them probably didn't recognize them, it is after the trial of faith that we recognize miracles. General Authorities teach that birds and trees are a miracle, but many won't recognize them as a miracle.  Just because some don't recognize a miracle doesn't mean it didn't happen.  In your view when does a miracle happen?  

Edited September 3, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[hagoth7]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I understand, so how do you identify a miracle?

Some things that I find miraculous (and I find things to be that way relatively often), you might find pedestrian.

With me, there is no hard/fast rule.

How about you?