Virgin Mary statue

[SamuelTheLamanite]

8 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

Some things that I find miraculous (and I find things to be that way relatively often), you might find pedestrian.

With me, there is no hard/fast rule.

How about you?

 

For me anything that helps your faith is a miracle of God. So under my definition the statues surviving is a miracle. In your view is it possible that God had a considerable hand in saving the statues?

Edited September 3, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[hagoth7]

9 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

For me anything that helps your faith is a miracle of God. So under my definition the statues surviving is a miracle. In your view is it possible that God had a considerable hand in saving the statues?

I think we have a different working definition of faith.

But in direct answer to your question, is it possible that God could help preserve statues, or keys, or something else? Yep.

[ttribe]

4 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

For me anything that helps your faith is a miracle of God. So under my definition the statues surviving is a miracle. In your view is it possible that God had a considerable hand in saving the statues?

So, God saved some statues but not the 50 people who died? Seems to me there could be a priority problem. 

[SamuelTheLamanite]

9 hours ago, ttribe said:

So, God saved some statues but not the 50 people who died? Seems to me there could be a priority problem. 

In your view how can we identify a miracle? Is miracle child a miracle?  http://www.nytimes.com/1993/09/25/us/miracle-child-is-survivor.html?mcubz=1     

or when someone wins the fight against cancer it is not a miracle because millions die of cancer?

13 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

I think we have a different working definition of faith.

But in direct answer to your question, is it possible that God could help preserve statues, or keys, or something else? Yep.

Thank you for saying it is possible. 

Edited September 3, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[hagoth7]

5 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

[1] In your view how can we identify a miracle?

[2] Thank you for saying it is possible. 

1. We can each identify what we deem to be a miracle for ourselves. (It is in the eye of the beholder to define *how* to identify a miracle.) And we obviously can't dictate to others what they must accept as miraculous.

2. You're quite welcome. :0)

Edited September 3, 2017 by hagoth7

[Storm Rider]

I agree with those that seek to see God's hand in all things - if it builds faith and a desire to follow the Savior then it is from God and his grace affects our lives.  Though I am a LDS I see God's hand in the lives of all his children; Christian and non-Christian alike and regardless of church affiliation. 

I have never understood a concept that limits the activity of the Holy Spirit in the lives of all of God's creation.  To the contrary, I see him active everywhere.  In the strangest and most difficult circumstances a seedling germinates and grows; such it is with God's children and faith.  I have no qualms with those who lose their faith or have never found it - God still lives and loves them.  He remains at the door seeking entry and it remains our individual responsibility to acknowledge his knock and respond.

[katherine the great]

On 8/28/2017 at 4:37 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said:

 Are they miracles from God or Satan? The scriptures teach Satan has power, he even has power to create serpents (2 Thessalonians 2:9, Exodus 7:8–10), but LDS leaders teach that miracles from God happen in other  religions too. I honestly don't know what to believe. Can't be just a coincidence because it is happening too many times. Seems to precise to an accident.  

I recommend the following course of action to direct you towards what to believe: 

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering."  (James 1: 5 and 1/2 of 6)

[ttribe]

7 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

In your view how can we identify a miracle? Is miracle child a miracle?  http://www.nytimes.com/1993/09/25/us/miracle-child-is-survivor.html?mcubz=1     

or when someone wins the fight against cancer it is not a miracle because millions die of cancer?

I don't know anymore.  All I know is I had three life-or-death situations in my family where we prayed for different outcomes in each case and in each case our prayers were most certainly not answered; all three died and did so in very horrendous fashions.  You want to talk to me about "miracles" involving statues but where were the miracle my family needed?  Don't even try to answer; it can't be done.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

4 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I recommend the following course of action to direct you towards what to believe: 

Good scripture, I like it. However, if a miracle was not for us we may not get confirmation from the holy spirit. The miracle of the surviving statues was for the people that experienced that natural disaster. Some testimonies take time, they could even take years. 

5 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I agree with those that seek to see God's hand in all things - if it builds faith and a desire to follow the Savior then it is from God and his grace affects our lives.  Though I am a LDS I see God's hand in the lives of all his children; Christian and non-Christian alike and regardless of church affiliation. 

Thanks. What is your take on The Clearwater Virgin? Was it a miracle by God or Satan? 

Edited September 4, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

55 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I don't know anymore.  All I know is I had three life-or-death situations in my family where we prayed for different outcomes in each case and in each case our prayers were most certainly not answered; all three died and did so in very horrendous fashions.  You want to talk to me about "miracles" involving statues but where were the miracle my family needed?  Don't even try to answer; it can't be done.

I am sorry to hear that. I believe the  surviving statues are a miracle because it is helping the faith of many, perhaps thousands.  

I know how hard it is to lose a family member, but because Jesus resurrected I can assure you that you are going to see your family members again. Death is something that happens, we can't blame God when it does happen.  

Edited September 4, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

5 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

1. We can each identify what we deem to be a miracle for ourselves. (It is in the eye of the beholder to define *how* to identify a miracle.) And we obviously can't dictate to others what they must accept as miraculous.

Yes, it is completely true. To be clear I am not dictating what you have to believe, you are free to believe naturalistic explanations for surviving statues.  I was simply asking you how do you recognize a miracle? 

[ttribe]

15 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I am sorry to hear that. I believe the  surviving statues are a miracle because it is helping the faith of many, perhaps thousands.  

I know how hard it is to lose a family member, but because Jesus resurrected I can assure you that you are going to see your family members again. Death is something that happens, we can't blame God when it does happen.  

Forgive me if I find your response naive and uncovincing.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

19 hours ago, ttribe said:

Forgive me if I find your response naive and uncovincing.

I am starting to get very worried about you, that is how some Atheists started. Please be very careful. In facebook I read atheists arguing it is not necessary to believe in miracles by God because in a world of four billion people anything happens.  Atheists argue it is all confirmation bias and nothingness.  Atheists believe that everything was created by a huge explosion out of nothing.  

Please don't believe in the Atheists. The Atheists can't explain away the Resurrection of Jesus. Death is not the end. There are Atheists that believe in God. It is true, for example Brent Allsop. Google Brent Allsop Mormon Atheist. 

Do not comment on or question another poster's faithfulness.

[hagoth7]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

 I was simply asking you how do you recognize a miracle? 

The same way i recognize beauty or kindness.

The process has no specific definition. It is what it is.  

...subjective.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2017 by hagoth7

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Good scripture, I like it. However, if a miracle was not for us we may not get confirmation from the holy spirit. The miracle of the surviving statues was for the people that experienced that natural disaster. Some testimonies take time, they could even take years. 

Thanks. What is your take on The Clearwater Virgin? Was it a miracle by God or Satan? 

I appreciate the Catholic Church's stance on such things - not all are accepted as miracles or from God. However, they are not rejected either.  If such things inspire some to seek and search after a stronger relationship with God, then I am grateful.  That does not mean it is real or a true miracle, but that it served a good purpose.

I personally am rather cautious about accepting such things as miracles, but as the CC does, I withhold judgment. 

[SamuelTheLamanite]

28 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I appreciate the Catholic Church's stance on such things - not all are accepted as miracles or from God. However, they are not rejected either.  If such things inspire some to seek and search after a stronger relationship with God, then I am grateful.  That does not mean it is real or a true miracle, but that it served a good purpose.

I personally am rather cautious about accepting such things as miracles, but as the CC does, I withhold judgment. 

In your view how can we identify a miracle? What is a miracle? Is a miracle something that can't be explain by science? or something that doesn't have a rational explanation? 

1 hour ago, hagoth7 said:

The same way i recognize beauty or kindness.

The process has no specific definition. It is what it is.  

...subjective.

Beauty and kindness are opinions. What I see as beautiful doesn't mean it is universally true. The hand of God is not an opinion, the scriptures teach God is a God of truth. 

[hagoth7]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

In your view how can we identify a miracle? What is a miracle? Is a miracle something that can't be explain by science? or something that doesn't have a rational explanation? 

The answer to your question is, in my view, a subjective one. So I won't attempt to pin it down.

Would do a disservice to the topic to attempt, IMNSHO.

 

[MiserereNobis]

On 8/29/2017 at 8:53 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Can you clarify? 

You need to listen to more Simon and Garfunkel before you ask that question

 

[MiserereNobis]

On 8/29/2017 at 11:37 PM, mfbukowski said:

https://bobdylan.com/songs/gates-eden/

Nobel prize winner in literature!

Now I have an authoritatively defensible reason why I make my students study Dylan lyrics

 

[MiserereNobis]

There are so so so many 'miracles' in the Catholic religion. While I don't have specific facts to support this, I am going to say that based on what I have observed, there are more claims of miracles in Catholicism than in Mormonism. In Catholicism, it's not considered too sacred to discuss an apparition of the Virgin Mary or a visitation from Our Lord Jesus.  It's probably a subject for a different thread, but it is interesting that the LDS religion that began with claims of visions and angelic visitations doesn't officially declare such things now. The Catholic Church, on the other hand, has a system in place for validating such miracles and Catholic culture  is certainly full of such things. Some range from the ridiculous (Jesus on a tortilla, Mary on a lightbulb, etc.) to the mind-boggling (Fatima and the miracle of the sun).

I take no position on statues in Houston, but I will say that in Catholicism there is a deep culture of believing in the miraculous. Some may call that naive, but if one is a believer in the Christian God, one should accept that He will sometimes intervene and make His presence known. Sometimes that it is through people, such as those giving so much to help those in need in Houston. Sometimes that is through a silent secret way, where His hand is not obvious at all. And then sometimes He makes Himself known through the symbols and rites that glorify Him, such as statues and hosts and Mass.

Finally, to those who say why would God care about a statue and not humans... perhaps you should consider the possibility that all those saved from Harvey were saved because of God's will. Or maybe because God ignited the sparks of compassion and sacrifice in the hearts of those who risked much to save others. God is often most active when He is invisible in the actions of compassionate lovely humans.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

12 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

The answer to your question is, in my view, a subjective one. So I won't attempt to pin it down.

Would do a disservice to the topic to attempt, IMNSHO.

Okay, for many perhaps even millions surviving statues are a miracle. So your right it is subjective because it increased the faith of many. 

Edited September 4, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[theplains]

On 01/09/2017 at 7:11 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Just something that happened. So what is a miracle in your view?

I believe a miracle is a miraculous act that brings glory to Jesus Christ.  I wouldn't say sparing a statue
at the cost of human suffering is a miracle.  Statues can become idols (like the bronze serpent of the
Old Testament.

Jim

[SamuelTheLamanite]

11 hours ago, theplains said:

I believe a miracle is a miraculous act that brings glory to Jesus Christ.  I wouldn't say sparing a statue
at the cost of human suffering is a miracle.  

1 Corinthians 1:25 says the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom. 

See 2 Samuel 6:7 

[ttribe]

On 9/3/2017 at 7:14 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I am starting to get very worried about you, that is how some Atheists started. Please be very careful. In facebook I read atheists arguing it is not necessary to believe in miracles by God because in a world of four billion people anything happens.  Atheists argue it is all confirmation bias and nothingness.  Atheists believe that everything was created by a huge explosion out of nothing.  

Please don't believe in the Atheists. The Atheists can't explain away the Resurrection of Jesus. Death is not the end. There are Atheists that believe in God. It is true, for example Brent Allsop. Google Brent Allsop Mormon Atheist. 

Do not comment on or question another poster's faithfulness.

While I suspect your heart is in the right place, this post is incredibly patronizing.

 

On 9/4/2017 at 0:21 AM, MiserereNobis said:

Finally, to those who say why would God care about a statue and not humans... perhaps you should consider the possibility that all those saved from Harvey were saved because of God's will. Or maybe because God ignited the sparks of compassion and sacrifice in the hearts of those who risked much to save others. God is often most active when He is invisible in the actions of compassionate lovely humans.

Well, what you've just succeeded in saying is that inspirational statues were more important than sparing my dad his suffering as he gradually starved to death over a five-month time period.  I hope you'll forgive me if I don't take that very well.

[MiserereNobis]

10 hours ago, ttribe said:

Well, what you've just succeeded in saying is that inspirational statues were more important than sparing my dad his suffering as he gradually starved to death over a five-month time period.  I hope you'll forgive me if I don't take that very well.

I am sorry to hear about your father's suffering. I do not think, though, that my post says what you think it says. I specifically talked about God's will being involved in things other than statues, even if His actions are invisible to us.

The question of human suffering and the Problem of Evil is a long one, filled with many partial yet ultimately unsatisfying theodicies. In the end, I believe that faith is the only satisfactory answer as to why there is suffering and evil in the world. All other explanations fall short of the mark.

Again, I am sorry about your father and my point was not that God would save a statue while allowing others to die. It was that God is more involved in our lives than we realize and perhaps many were saved by God's will in an invisible manner.

Edited September 6, 2017 by MiserereNobis