The LDS Church, Charlottesville and continuing revelation

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Apparently racism is far more a problem and uglier than I thought it was within the Church.  Seriously I didn't realize it even though I have raised a son who is black and has, mostly through ignorance or thoughtlessness of many members, been hurt.  But in the second Church statement we read:

I'd guess the only ones in that community would care what the Church felt about it would be members.  So, it seems, member white supremacists were asserting the Church is neutral or supported them.  That's terrible.  Too bad the Church had to issue a clarification for such members, I suppose. 

my God! how did we get here? 

I do not think it is pervasive. We got here because some idgits want to alter Church teaching to accommodate their secular views. This is normal. The secular views accommodated are just rarely this abhorrent. Many converts bring these ideas with them.

A crazy old lady who fed us on our mission had a deep distrust of all Pakistanis. There are some church members in Japan that cannot get over their supposed superiority over Koreans. My brother had a companion on his mission in Spanish speaking LA from South America that was a little too into mocking the losers of the Soccer War in Central America. They got thrown out when he was trying to poke fun at the loser Hondurans only to find the guy they were talking to had lost a sister in the war. I am pretty sure that guy only stayed out because his dad was one of the few strong leaders in his country of origin which I believe was Venezuela. I hope the current conflict there has made him see how unfunny that kind of thing can be.

White supremacy is just the worst of it. I will say that I believe LDS are now amongst the least racist groups of people on the planet. We travel. We have bonds of brotherhood and sisterhood wherever we go and find a congregation. Some just love to indulge in their hate too much. Labeling blacks or Muslims or whatever as the enemy of your God allows the weak amongst us to indulge in the black pleasure of hatred for others. I have felt the temptation myself. I think most LDS have.

I too hope to see an apostle speak on this. Even just a throwaway line about indulging in this would be enough to take away the pathetic defense of wanting to ignore this counsel because it is only the Church PR department and operating under the delusion that such statements do not get reviewed by the Apostles before they are released. More likely the statement was requested by the Apostles.

[The Nehor]

33 minutes ago, Duncan said:

does society need Naziism or white supremacy? why do they need a voice? I'm sure more people don't want them than hate our freedom of expression, God will fight our battles as per 105. 

No, we don't need them. The danger is that once you start picking and choosing you run the risk of that weapon being turned on less extreme groups. Many nations in Europe do restrict speech like this. I prefer our way. If we lose the social and political battle against these nutcases then we deserve what we get. 

[BlueDreams]

8 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Let's consider anew the question of what is modern day revelation. 

I read an Op-ed in the desnews earlier that caught my eye.  In it we find:

How do the statements reflect revelation?  Even the Pres. Hinckley statement made more than a decade ago can't really be revelation as much as just plain common sense. 

Apparently racism is far more a problem and uglier than I thought it was within the Church.  Seriously I didn't realize it even though I have raised a son who is black and has, mostly through ignorance or thoughtlessness of many members, been hurt.  But in the second Church statement we read:

I'd guess the only ones in that community would care what the Church felt about it would be members.  So, it seems, member white supremacists were asserting the Church is neutral or supported them.  That's terrible.  Too bad the Church had to issue a clarification for such members, I suppose. 

my God! how did we get here? 

On the revelation bit, I think there's a few uses and forms of revelation represented in scripture. The one that your alluding to, it feels, is where new truths are given to the people. Obviously this does not fall under that category. Another form of revelation is giving needed direction specific to the time and challenges of the people. Often these aren't "new" per se, but are needed to steer people from temptations or societal pitfalls. You could state that these statements fit those. 

On your second part, I don't think it's super prevalent. I don't know anyone who would affiliate with this movement....of course most would also not be stupid enough to admit that to me. As I mentioned much of the race issues I've seen in the church have been subtle and/or based of ignorance. But the alt-right and WN movements have worked to rearrange their message to become more tenable to the general (white) populace. Pockets like Ayla who's dialogue is quoted, really earnestly believe that their type of lifestyle is in jeopardy. It's then wrapped into "preservation" language to ones heritage, while riding a more subtle undertone of fear and paranoia about other races. It's feeding off of misconceptions of a homogenous or some for of special similarities shared by all white people. It's ignoring the history of where "white culture" REALLY comes from. With enough soft pedals and blindspots the idea can seem noble...ensuring a place and heritage for ones children. Who wouldn't want that? Of course there's a million holes in this. But I can see how our current climate and their more subtle messages could end up entrapping people into false security by validating their covert racism, general fears, tribalism, ethnocentrism, and ignorance. The harder course is introspection, listening/understanding minority stories, and repentance. The easier is self-justification, combating, and pushing out voices that see things different from you. That's how you get there. 

 

 With luv,

BD

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

No, we don't need them. The danger is that once you start picking and choosing you run the risk of that weapon being turned on less extreme groups. Many nations in Europe do restrict speech like this. I prefer our way. If we lose the social and political battle against these nutcases then we deserve what we get. 

i'll take that risk! what risk is there if Nazi's and white supremacists had restricted free speech? if minority groups stay that way then they would be fine, but Nazi's and WS have shown again and again they are extremist and their free speech needs to be abolished, I don't want WW3 with the Nazi's again, didn't we do that already?! I'm sure more people don't want Naziism than want these other less visible groups 

[The Nehor]

34 minutes ago, Duncan said:

i'll take that risk! what risk is there if Nazi's and white supremacists had restricted free speech? if minority groups stay that way then they would be fine, but Nazi's and WS have shown again and again they are extremist and their free speech needs to be abolished, I don't want WW3 with the Nazi's again, didn't we do that already?! I'm sure more people don't want Naziism than want these other less visible groups 

Then we realize that extreme elements on the Left have similar rhetoric and start restricting them. Then we realize that some phrases are dog whistles for racist thought and target that. Then a crisis pops up and a government acting out of fear or even naked avarice finds a way to make the opposing party's views out as hate speech.

Sometimes the best thing to do when it is hard to figure out where to draw a line is to throw the chalk away and make sure there is no line. Meanwhile we can and should socially, economically, and culturally shun these people. They should be identified on social media, boycotted, excluded, and made to realize like a child in timeout that their behavior is not acceptable. Some will form enclaves of hate somewhere and gnaw over their hatred and some will repent.

It won't be World War III. It will be another Civil War if it happens. We don't want martyrs as the law restricts them. We want laughingstocks.

[Calm]

"They should be identified on social media"

I both love and hate this.  Love because I think people should be held accountable for their actions.

Hate because mistakes are made and even when correct, reactions can be vicious.

For example, apparently the Charlottesville driver was originally misidentified online and the young man named, who wasn't even in the state, was receiving death threats.  This claim won't likely be corrected in every forum it was made in and may cause problems for the young man the rest of his life.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Calm

[Duncan]

38 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Then we realize that extreme elements on the Left have similar rhetoric and start restricting them. Then we realize that some phrases are dog whistles for racist thought and target that. Then a crisis pops up and a government acting out of fear or even naked avarice finds a way to make the opposing party's views out as hate speech.

Sometimes the best thing to do when it is hard to figure out where to draw a line is to throw the chalk away and make sure there is no line. Meanwhile we can and should socially, economically, and culturally shun these people. They should be identified on social media, boycotted, excluded, and made to realize like a child in timeout that their behavior is not acceptable. Some will form enclaves of hate somewhere and gnaw over their hatred and some will repent.

It won't be World War III. It will be another Civil War if it happens. We don't want martyrs as the law restricts them. We want laughingstocks.

The Nazi wife with a purpose is prepping for that already it appears

"emergency kits as well as bandages, sterilization products, needle and thread, burn ointment. The attacks we are facing may get more bloody, be prepared with medical supplies and extra bottles of any medications you may be on. Learn about herbal and wholistic medicine and medical alternatives, learn to identify wild medicinal plants. Doctors may start to refuse to treat us and our families. Stock books on emergency medical techniques. "

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

The Nazi wife with a purpose is prepping for that already it appears

"emergency kits as well as bandages, sterilization products, needle and thread, burn ointment. The attacks we are facing may get more bloody, be prepared with medical supplies and extra bottles of any medications you may be on. Learn about herbal and wholistic medicine and medical alternatives, learn to identify wild medicinal plants. Doctors may start to refuse to treat us and our families. Stock books on emergency medical techniques. "

Hopefully her husband will be out of prison by then and they can medicate using his drug connections.

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, Duncan said:

does society need Naziism or white supremacy? why do they need a voice? I'm sure more people don't want them than hate our freedom of expression, God will fight our battles as per 105. 

The problem becomes "Who get's to decide who needs a voice and who doesn't"?  

[Duncan]

47 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The problem becomes "Who get's to decide who needs a voice and who doesn't"?  

We'll rewatch Schindler's list and Mississippi Burning! Some movements die off as society progresses but some like these ones stick around and continue to sow ill will and lawmakers say what they can and cannot do or say, without charges

Edited August 19, 2017 by Duncan

[bluebell]

49 minutes ago, Duncan said:

We'll rewatch Schindler's list and Mississippi Burning! Some movements die off as society progresses but some like these ones stick around and continue to sow ill will and lawmakers say what they can and cannot do or say, without charges

I've seen those movies multiple times.  I took a 5 month university class that was on the Holocaust.  Five solid months and that's all we covered.  I know the history.  But none of that answers my question.

Who get's to decide who needs a voice and who doesn't?  We can't trust the government to do it, as German history shows.  So who do we give that power to?

[Guest]

11 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I think in this case there is at least one prominent alt-right Mormon blogger who quite outspoken in support of what she calls "white culture" and she has a large following.  I think (and this is just a guess) that the church wanted to clarify that it does not endorse this type of thing.

That is so unfortunate, I would hope that the Church takes more action than just mention this in passing. I was asked a dear brother who was around when this happened, he was in his 70's to talk about his feeling of when this occured (the Priesthood Bn be lifted) the following Sunday. He did not call and say no, or that he could not make it (which is something he was known to do) he just did not show up. I got a lot of responses that I did not expect, from others who were in their late 60's and above, who were talked of being shocked. It was a difficult lesson so 20 years qgo now. 

[thesometimesaint]

15 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Are there any LDS who are ' prepers" ? Are there any who belong to militias? Are there any who store weapons and ammo? When one associates with groups of this mindset, one is exposed to ideas held by some , if not a majority, of participants. Sadly there comes with the idea of " us against the world " , the hatred of people seen as ' the world ' .

Recent wall to wall media coverage of events has likely done much to recruit more extremists to the cause .We shoot ourselves in the foot with hyperbolic ranting. Many I have heard would be overjoyed to see all the Neo-Nazis and KKK lined up against a wall and shot , not seeing the irony in that position visa vie past history.

In hunting for a famous quote I found this tidbit, actually a tad big: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/06/01/defend-say/

Sure there are. We are a group of some 15 million. We're going to have them. I was a  Boy Scout our motto was Be Prepared. I don't believe that makes the Boy Scouts a bunch of "prepers". Also  I have food  storage, and it has been  useful on occasion. But no I'm not a "preeper".

[thesometimesaint]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I've seen those movies multiple times.  I took a 5 month university class that was on the Holocaust.  Five solid months and that's all we covered.  I know the history.  But none of that answers my question.

Who get's to decide who needs a voice and who doesn't?  We can't trust the government to do it, as German history shows.  So who do we give that power to?

What someone believes is between them and their God. What they do is between them and the state. Some times the cure is worse than the disease.

[Duncan]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

I've seen those movies multiple times.  I took a 5 month university class that was on the Holocaust.  Five solid months and that's all we covered.  I know the history.  But none of that answers my question.

Who get's to decide who needs a voice and who doesn't?  We can't trust the government to do it, as German history shows.  So who do we give that power to?

if you don't trust the Gov't then it on yourself, but don't get into the whole sovereign citizen movement!  I decide if Naziism has any sway or not, as Pres. Brown used to say you can't stop a bird from landing in your tree but you can stop it from nesting. In Canada we this stuff too but it isn't the same I don't think. I watched an interview the other day with a reformed neo nazi and he said when he was in it like 20-25 years ago, it was skinhead, army boots, certain jacket it was more like a gang whereas now he said neo nazi's have corporatized and ditched all that and gone for white shirts and ties, it's subtler now with these breakouts here and now though. I was debating on FB with people in my stake, one guy is in a bishopric, a high councilor a former high councilor all feel that they have a legit voice that needs to be heard and I say they don't, Naziism isn't worth defending and I can't believe High Priests think otherwise. We know what they say, like what more do they need to say that we need to hear? to me, it's nothing, we don't want their opinions. How do you prevent that? lawmakers but if you can't trust them then you decide if you'll listen to them.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Duncan

[SteveO]

10 minutes ago, Duncan said:

if you don't trust the Gov't then it on yourself, but don't get into the whole sovereign citizen movement!  I decide if Naziism has any sway or not, as Pres. Brown used to say you can't stop a bird from landing in your tree but you can stop it from nesting. In Canada we this stuff too but it isn't the same I don't think. I watched an interview the other day with a reformed neo nazi and he said when he was in it like 20-25 years ago, it was skinhead, army boots, certain jacket it was more like a gang whereas now he said neo nazi's have corporatized and ditched all that and gone for white shirts and ties. I was debating on FB with people in my stake, one guy is in a bishopric, a high councilor a former high councilor all feel that they have a legit voice that needs to be heard and I say they don't, we know what they say like what more do they need to say that we need to hear? to me, it's nothing, we don't want their opinions. How do you prevent that? lawmakers but if you can't trust them then you decide if you'll listen to them.

I want all shirts of Che Guevara banned.  Sickle and hammer banned.  Socialism and Communism have killed more than Nazism after all.  I also want any mention of having had an "abortion and being proud of it" banned.  Bill Mahr, Trey Parker, Matt Stone, Richard Dawkins, Dave Cheppelle, and Louis CK need to be banned too just for starters in the comedy sector.  We'll also need to create a department to edit movies, music, books that may be offensive and/or damaging to young impressionable minds.  Don't even get me started on people who refuse to use correct pronouns.  On a personal level, I want any protesters of the Mormon Church arrested as well--especially those gathered outside during General Conference.

Of course this is just my personal opinion. It may vary from person to person who is harmed or affected.  We may just have to install a special court that deal exclusively with offensive speech and its definition...

[thesometimesaint]

I'll defend to the death anyone's right to make a peaceful fool out of themselves.

Edited August 19, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[Duncan]

7 minutes ago, SteveO said:

I want all shirts of Che Guevara banned.  Sickle and hammer banned.  Socialism and Communism have killed more than Nazism after all.  I also want any mention of having had an "abortion and being proud of it" banned.  Bill Mahr, Trey Parker, Matt Stone, Richard Dawkins, Dave Cheppelle, and Louis CK need to be banned too just for starters in the comedy sector.  We'll also need to create a department to edit movies, music, books that may be offensive and/or damaging to young impressionable minds.  Don't even get me started on people who refuse to use correct pronouns.  On a personal level, I want any protesters of the Mormon Church arrested as well--especially those gathered outside during General Conference.

Of course this is just my personal opinion. It may vary from person to person who is harmed or affected.  We may just have to install a special court that deal exclusively with offensive speech and its definition...

don't we have that already? courts and laws and stuff! 

[SteveO]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

don't we have that already? courts and laws and stuff! 

We do, and it's the same court that ruled that Westboro Baptist Church had a right to picket the funerals of dead American soldiers...but that's not what you're advocating--you want courts that tell people what they can and cannot say, what they can and cannot believe.  

Dont confuse my defense of free speech with a defense of what is being said by these white supremacists, but far more dangerous is a government that gets into the action of regulation speech and thought

[Duncan]

4 minutes ago, SteveO said:

We do, and it's the same court that ruled that Westboro Baptist Church had a right to picket the funerals of dead American soldiers...but that's not what you're advocating--you want courts that tell people what they can and cannot say, what they can and cannot believe.  

Dont confuse my defense of free speech with a defense of what is being said by these white supremacists, but far more dangerous is a government that gets into the action of regulation speech and thought

Come to Canada! we don't have that stuff up here! it's a balance that isn't always gotten. We have this up here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_Canada

 

i don't know what hate speech is like in the US, but it seems you can say that so and so is bad but it's another to say we need to kill, rape, burn, rob an inducement to illegal action that constitutes hate speech-so, limits

[SteveO]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Come to Canada! we don't have that stuff up here! it's a balance that isn't always gotten. We have this up here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_Canada

 

i don't know what hate speech is like in the US, but it seems you can say that so and so is bad but it's another to say we need to kill, rape, burn, rob an inducement to illegal action that constitutes hate speech-so, limits

You also have this

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.dailycaller.com/2017/06/16/canada-passes-law-criminalizing-use-of-wrong-gender-pronouns/

[Duncan]

8 minutes ago, SteveO said:

You also have this

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.dailycaller.com/2017/06/16/canada-passes-law-criminalizing-use-of-wrong-gender-pronouns/

You have the Star Wars Christmas Special, what a Godsend that was

[The Nehor]

I went to the movies tonight with some friends. When I was driving home I noticed something flapping on my windshield. Someone left me a leaflet.

When I got home I had a look.

The Headline: "GOD is NOT Rewarding Muslims or ANYONE with 72 Virgins or even One Girl in Heaven for MURDERING People, for BLOWING PEOPLE Up.

I guess the writer did not get the memo on brevity on headlines. He then launches into a diatribe against Muslims calling them to repentance for mass murder (perhaps this group assumes Islamic Terrorists drive my make of car) and then begins incoherent string of scriptures largely out of context condemning everyone. My favorite bit:

"JESUS told the Sadducees, the same as HE tells us all, that in heaven there is no sex, no marriage, no seventy-two, or even one virgin brunette, redhead, or blond waiting for anyone on mats, especially you radical murdering Muslims."

Wow, he really knows how to sell the afterlife doesn't he? I also did not know my promised virgins were on mats. I am also confused on why he felt the need to point out that no matter what your favorite hair color is on a woman you are not getting it. Wait, aren't there women with naturally black hair? Loophole?

"Muslims: Quit blowing yourselves up."

Yes, sir. He then goes on a rambling discourse on how to be saved by incanting the sorcerous prayer that guarantees eternal life. He closes with this dose of humility: "(author's name) is probably the greatest patriot this country has ever known." He must have missed the Savior's counsel on seeking out the high seats at festivals and Paul's counsel on not singing your own praises.

 

I post this here because the LDS church often has comparatively minor messaging problems or members that get it all wrong and other issues that pop up. Sometimes this makes me sad. Then along comes something stupid like this and.......to quote Julie Andrews.....THEN I DON'T FEEL SO BAD!

 

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Duncan said:

You have the Star Wars Christmas Special, what a Godsend that was

Watch the body language of Harrison Ford when asked about it. Priceless.

 

 

 

NAILS ON CHALKBOARD..................MUST KILL:

 

[Storm Rider]

So let me get this straight - what was supposed to be the biggest representation, protest, meeting of the Alt Right, Free Speech, KKK, whatever label you would like to put on this group of people - amounted to a few hundred people.  Let me repeat that so it sinks in - a few HUNDRED people.  Now, we are all supposed to be wringing our hands that it is "pervasive", a "real cause" for concern no less.  Really?  Can you say media leading the masses around by the nose a few times?

Very, very few have even attempted to define what all the groups were in attendance or their true objectives.  Yet, they bend over backwards to excuse the those gentle souls on the left that were only there to preach peace, love, acceptance, tolerance, rainbows, and unicorns that came prepared to fight, cause violence, and vociferously abuse those who had a legal permit to assemble......which they did not and yet were allowed by the "neutral" local officials that said they did not want violence or problems.  It does not take a rocket scientist to develop a plan that prevents opposing sides from coming in contact with each other.  It certainly does not take one to stop a group that does not have a permit from being allowed to assemble.  The entire event was a farce.  The really stupid thing is the idiots who had the permit had a man that went nuts and thought it would be acceptable to run down a group on the other side.  

Now we have these peace loving, consistent critics who would damn the Church if they didn't speak and damn the Church when it does speak.  The truth and reality of this situation is that it does not matter what the Church does or says they will still whine, harp, complain and find fault with the Church.  All the while they feign innocence and love.  For me, it is really an old trick that bores me.  It certainly has long since lost its ability to entertain or make me think these individuals are just innocents asking sincere questions.

Now, if you want my personal opinion, I would have preferred the Church said nothing.  I refuse to be a pawn in what the media strives to achieve.  I would prefer that the Church of Jesus Christ had taken the same position.  Who in their right mind would ever think that racism is a good thing?  I always taught my children never state the obvious - it is a sign not thinking.  Hate is found in countless ways and racism is hardly the most common.