History of using Thee, Thy, Thou, etc. in prayers

[bluebell]

Where did the idea come from that praying using those old english words was more formal/respectful and that's why we need to pray like that.  

One example of such teaching was expressed by Elder L. Tom Perry in General Conference-

"Second, use the sacred language of prayer. We should always address Deity by using the sacred pronouns thou, thee, thy, and thine. The late President Stephen L Richards gave us this wise counsel:

“We have discovered … a lack of proper teaching with reference to prayer. I know that I myself have been shocked out in the mission field as I have heard missionaries called on for prayer who seem to have had no experience or training whatever in the use of the language of prayer. …

“I think, my brethren, that in the quorums and in the classes, you would do well, as in the homes also, to teach the language of prayer—‘Thee and Thou,’ rather than ‘you.’ It always seems disappointing to me to have our Father in Heaven, our Lord, addressed as ‘you.’ It is surprising how much we see of this. … I think you might make note of it, and avail yourselves of any opportunities that may come in order to teach the sacred and reverential language of prayer.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1951, p. 175.)"

Old English words such as thee and thine were originally the less formal way to address someone (it was used to express familiarity, for example).  The formal or proper language was actually "You" and "your" etc.  I know that in spanish, people are taught to pray using the familiar form of "tu" instead of the formal "usted".  

Why is it different in English, and why is the usage of thee and thine even a thing that our leaders push?  

[JLHPROF]

I think the thee and thou being the familiar is designed to draw us closer to God.
The fact that we label them as "formal" is the modern convention, but if I had to guess, it is because the same language used to address deity was also used towards royalty and nobility.

[Buckeye]

Tradition!

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I think the thee and thou being the familiar is designed to draw us closer to God.
The fact that we label them as "formal" is the modern convention, but if I had to guess, it is because the same language used to address deity was also used towards royalty and nobility.

Thee and thine would never be used to address royalty back when those words were in common usage though.  There's a reason shakespeare used those words-they were the informal usage-more appropriate and understandable for barmaids and the working class types.  

 

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Tradition!

This is what i'm thinking as well.  It seems like a tradition that would be better to let die.

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This is what i'm thinking as well.  It seems like a tradition that would be better to let die.

Some Christian denominations already have.  I've noticed watching certain evangelical groups pray on television that they all use "you" instead of "thee/thou".
Perhaps it's connected to our usage of the KJV.  If we used a more modern translation perhaps our prayers would modify too.

Interestingly, according to Wikipedia apparently the origin is much more basic than formal/informal.  Thou is singular, Ye (You) is plural.
 

Edited July 20, 2017 by JLHPROF

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Some Christian denominations already have.  I've noticed watching certain evangelical groups pray on television that they all use "you" instead of "thee/thou".
Perhaps it's connected to our usage of the KJV.  If we used a more modern translation perhaps our prayers would modify too.

Interestingly, according to Wikipedia apparently the origin is much more basic than formal/informal.  Thou is singular, Ye (You) is plural.
 

I wonder too if it's connected to our use of the KJV.  

[Danzo]

All I know that none of this makes any sense except in English.

[Oliblish]

The talk that comes to mind when this subject is mentioned is by Elder Oaks 1993:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/04/the-language-of-prayer?lang=eng

Quote

Modern English has no special verbs or pronouns that are intimate, familiar, or honorific. When we address prayers to our Heavenly Father in English, our only available alternatives are the common words of speech like you and your or the dignified but uncommon words like thee, thou, and thy which were used in the King James Version of the Bible almost five hundred years ago. Latter-day Saints, of course, prefer the latter. In our prayers we use language that is dignified and different, even archaic.

The men whom we sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators have consistently taught and urged English-speaking members of our Church to phrase their petitions to the Almighty in the special language of prayer. President Spencer W. Kimball said, “In all our prayers, it is well to use the pronouns thee, thou, thy, and thine instead of you, your, and yours inasmuch as they have come to indicate respect.” (Faith Precedes the Miracle, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1972, p. 201.) Numerous other Church leaders have given the same counsel. (See Stephen L Richards, in Conference Report, Oct. 1951, p. 175; Bruce R. McConkie, Ensign, Jan. 1976, p. 12; and L. Tom Perry, Ensign, Nov. 1983, p. 13.)

Perhaps some who are listening to this sermon in English are already saying, “But this is unfamiliar and difficult. Why should we have to use words that have not been in common use in the English language for hundreds of years? If we require a special language of prayer in English, we will discourage the saying of prayers by little children, by new members, and by others who are just learning to pray.”

Brothers and sisters, the special language of prayer is much more than an artifact of the translation of the scriptures into English. Its use serves an important, current purpose. We know this because of modern revelations and because of the teachings and examples of modern prophets. The way we pray is important.

It looks like the KJV bible is related to this.  

I feel that this is something that we should allow to fade into the past.  I wouldn't be surprised if we don't hear about this from the pulpit again.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Oliblish

[Duncan]

Elder Oaks gave a talk about this

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/04/the-language-of-prayer?lang=eng

[LittleNipper]

Obviously Jesus knew Hebrew, and likely spoke Aramaic. I see no reason to use Thee or Thou unless the words seem to fit the mood. Thee and thou, thy, are more formalized English. Formality at times seems to elude to a more respectful tone.

[Duncan]

13 minutes ago, Oliblish said:

The talk that comes to mind when this subject is mentioned is by Elder Oaks 1993:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/04/the-language-of-prayer?lang=eng

It looks like the KJV bible is related to this.  

I feel that this is something that we should allow to fade into the past.  I wouldn't be surprised if we don't hear about this from the pulpit again.

Literally at the same time, we posted the same talk, literally!

[mnn727]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Why is it different in English, and why is the usage of thee and thine even a thing that our leaders push?  

Never could figure out why 'Olde English" is more respectful or 'Holy' I think it's used as a justification for keeping the KJV (and you don't want to get me started on that subject)

[hagoth7]

..

Edited July 20, 2017 by hagoth7

[Darren10]

I am guessing a bit here but "thee", "thy", "thine" seem to be a more formal manner of addressing someone than "you" and "your". Not that the latter form are inherently bad or inappropriate but if you had to choose a form of respectfully addressing someone, these antiquated forms seem more respectful. More formal than informal.  

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I wonder too if it's connected to our use of the KJV.  

Many languages which use a formal form for address as well as a familiar form, will use the familiar form in prayer.  In Spanish for example, one would use "usted" ("you") to address someone with whom you were not familiar- it is the more formal form.  But in prayer, the same "you" you would use in your family for your near and dear people is used to address God- it is the "tu" form.  I was kind of shocked when I realized that Spanish folks addressed God the way they would address their kids at the dinner table.  But then I found out that all other languages- that I am aware of- which have a formal and familiar way of addressing people, also use the familiar form for prayer.

As far as I know English is the only one which uses the formal form for prayer- but I am far from an expert- I am just bad enough in a few languages to understand some prayers and not much else.

So again perhaps it is simply people thinking that the King James Thee and Thou sound more formal because they are older, while in fact, those forms were the familiar forms of address in their day.

Hey everybody knows that if you have British accent you are smarter than everyone else, so Americans address God as if he were an old Englishman because of the Old Testament.

That of course is totally made up.

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

Obviously Jesus knew Hebrew, and likely spoke Aramaic. I see no reason to use Thee or Thou unless the words seem to fit the mood. Thee and thou, thy, are more formalized English. Formality at times seems to elude to a more respectful tone.

Nope, more familiar.

[Darren10]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I wonder too if it's connected to our use of the KJV.  

Most liely. By far the King James Bible has had more on an impact on the English-speaking world than any other book. At least that's my understanding. 

[Darren10]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

“I think, my brethren, that in the quorums and in the classes, you would do well, as in the homes also, to teach the language of prayer—‘Thee and Thou,’ rather than ‘you.’ It always seems disappointing to me to have our Father in Heaven, our Lord, addressed as ‘you.’ It is surprising how much we see of this. … I think you might make note of it, and avail yourselves of any opportunities that may come in order to teach the sacred and reverential language of prayer.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1951, p. 175.)"

I like this portion of Blue Bell's citation the most. I think it prudent to take care not to address God so casually and the use of thee and thine and the such us a practical way to keep our mind focused on the fact that when we pray we are addressing a being far greater than ourselves. Addressing God as "you" can easily make it sound like God is our equal rather than our superior. 

[mfbukowski]

Just to prove I am a really cool dude I just looked up the wikipedia to show how smart I am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou

Quote

 

Originally, thou was simply the singular counterpart to the plural pronoun ye, derived from an ancient Indo-European root. Following the Norman invasion of 1066, thou was used to express intimacy, familiarity or even disrespect, while another pronoun, you, the oblique/objective form of ye, was used for formal circumstances (see T–V distinction). In the 17th century, thou fell into disuse in the standard language, often regarded as impolite, but persisted, sometimes in an altered form, in regional dialects of England and Scotland,^[3] as well as in the language of such religious groups as the Society of Friends. The use of the pronoun is also still present in poetry.

Early English translations of the Bible used the familiar singular form of the second person, which mirrors common usage trends in other languages. The familiar and singular form is used when speaking to God, in French (in Protestantism both in past and present, in Catholicism since the post-Vatican II reforms), German, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Ukrainian, Russian, Yiddish, Turkish, Lithuanian, and Scottish Gaelic (all of which maintain the use of an "informal" singular form of the second person in modern speech). In addition, the translators of the King James Version of the Bible attempted to maintain the distinction found in Hebrew between singular and plural second person pronouns. As such, they used "thou" for singular, and "you" for plural.

 

I know you are all impressed that I have that ability. 

Edited July 20, 2017 by mfbukowski

[ksfisher]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

 I know that in spanish, people are taught to pray using the familiar form of "tu" instead of the formal "usted".  

 

In Swedish we were taught to use the more formal forms of those words.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

Obviously Jesus knew Hebrew, and likely spoke Aramaic. I see no reason to use Thee or Thou unless the words seem to fit the mood. Thee and thou, thy, are more formalized English. Formality at times seems to elude to a more respectful tone.

We think of them as formal, but they really aren't.  Back when they were used (In England centuries ago), they were often used to imply familiarity and informality.  They were the 'common speech' for lack of a better term.  The translators of the KJV specifically chose them because they would be easily understood by the masses.  

[hagoth7]

43 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

I am guessing a bit here but "thee", "thy", "thine" seem to be a more formal manner of addressing someone than "you" and "your". Not that the latter form are inherently bad or inappropriate but if you had to choose a form of respectfully addressing someone, these antiquated forms seem more respectful. More formal than informal.  

For a being who prefers to be called Father...I'm not quite sure what you're saying about form and formality, or how that at all aligns with the reality of a Father who loves his children. Nor does this "form" or "formality" seem to meet the needs of the rising generation...at all.

You speak of an outward form of respect, but lacking the substance of what the fathers I know want most. To simply love, and be loved in return.

Cloesness. Not abstract titles or jargon that create distance.

Or so says the chief hypocrite of fathers...

Cue: Sia. To be human.

Edited July 20, 2017 by hagoth7

[strappinglad]

If we were to ask the average LDS member why we use thee , thou, thine etc. , ( and often incorrectly ) , most would indicate that it is a more ' formal/respectful ' form of prayer. What the forms were used for in the past is irrelevant .Language changes based on the perception of people , so it matters not that  they used to be informal or formal 500 years ago. If people ' think ' there is a particular meaning, then it has that particular meaning. The word " meat " used to cover all non liquid food. Now it is reserved for flesh of animals. Good luck getting it to mean what it used to mean. Maybe in 500 years... ya'all will be more appropriate. Y'all  ???

Edited July 20, 2017 by strappinglad

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

In Swedish we were taught to use the more formal forms of those words.

Thanks for sharing.  It just goes to show that we are all over the map with this issue, and we have an American culture where 'thee and thy' are formal, respectful, and sacred, but we have nothing to explain why we should consider those words to be such.

It seems to be completely based on tradition.