History of using Thee, Thy, Thou, etc. in prayers

[mnn727]

45 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

You're missing the point. In case you haven't noticed, this thread is about PRAYER and how English speaking Latter-Day Saints are counseled to use the special 'language of prayer'when communicating with Heavenly Father. For this reason, my focus here has been more particularly on the language used in the prayers found in the scriptures. I haven't focused much on the general text of the scriptures outside of the prayers. 

As a point of special interest, while the general text of each book of scripture in the LDS canon, including the King James Bible, is filled will modern personal pronouns, it just so happens that in every case when we come upon an account of someone praying, the individuals are recorded as speaking  to God in the very same language of prayer we modern saints have been counseled to use when we pray to Heavenly Father.

This thread and you have postulated in part that its due to the KJV version language and the prayers within it, so I'm not the one who has missed the point.

Edited July 25, 2017 by mnn727

[Oliblish]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As far as I know the clear instruction to use the language of prayer in English has never been repealed. 

Do church leaders ever do this?  In my observation it is rare to hear an official message explicitly repealed.  Instead we just stop hearing about it and it is slowly forgotten.  Older members remember it but younger ones have never heard it.  A generation or two passes and the quiet "repeal" is complete.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

True to the Faith copyright 2004. The Gospel Library app also includes talks from the 70's. It included 'Our Heritage" from 1966, etc., so using it to prove "up to the minute" doctrines may not be as black and white as you want it to be.

2004 is not all that long ago, my friend. 

And I repeat: Whenever I've seen discourse from the Brethren or the Church on this subject, it has been consistent. I invite you to present any authoritative source that expresses the contrary. 

By the way, I think you're way early on "Our Heritage." Did you check the date or are you going by memory?

Maybe you're confusing it with "Truth Restored." That one's pretty old. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

36 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

In addition to Scott's excellent post in response to your challenge, I would say one of the ways the General Authorities teach us is by example. This being the case, can you find a single recent General Conference prayer or temple dedication prayer that did not follow the guidelines of the LDS language of prayer? If using the language of prayer is no longer as important as it once was, why are there no examples of anyome in authority who has put the language of prayer aside?

Have any of the apostles taught us that we should look to them as an example?  

I'm certainly not saying that it is not tradition in the LDS church to pray in a specific way, nor am I saying that the apostles don't personally believe in using that language. 

[bluebell]

58 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don't recall the Church leaders ever "pushing it" with the intensity you seem to imply -- but I do recall absolute consistency whenever the subject was brought up. 

And by the way, I really haven't been working all that hard searching. I checked "True to the Faith" on a whim, and there it was.  I found it even before I saw your last post and, as luck would have it, was able to respond immediately.

I thought about checking Gospel Principles but didn't get to it. Fact is, I'm attending a conference right now and taking little odd snippets of time to post and to check the Internet with my iPod touch. 

They used to specifically teach new members to pray in that specific way. Now they don't. That's the change I'm referring to. 

[mnn727]

27 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

2004 is not all that long ago, my friend. 

And I repeat: Whenever I've seen discourse from the Brethren or the Church on this subject, it has been consistent. I invite you to present any authoritative source that expresses the contrary. 

By the way, I think you're way early on "Our Heritage." Did you check the date or are you going by memory?

Maybe you're confusing it with "Truth Restored." That one's pretty old. 

I checked the date on my phones Gospel Library app. I just double checked it:  Copyright 1966

Edited July 25, 2017 by mnn727

[Scott Lloyd]

37 minutes ago, Oliblish said:

Do church leaders ever do this?  In my observation it is rare to hear an official message explicitly repealed.  Instead we just stop hearing about it and it is slowly forgotten.  Older members remember it but younger ones have never heard it.  A generation or two passes and the quiet "repeal" is complete.

 

The point is that an argument from silence is a pretty weak argument. 

[Bobbieaware]

6 hours ago, mnn727 said:

This thread and you have postulated in part that its due to the KJV version language and the prayers within it, so I'm not the one who has missed the point.

All the original books of scripture in the LDS canon were written in the King James style of English, and all the prayers recorded in each of these sacred volumes are written in the vernacular of the King James English 'language of prayer.' Further, in the book of modern-day scripture called the Doctrine and Covenants all the prayers recorded therein are written in the King James 'language of prayer.' By this the prophet Joseph Smith set the trajectory for an inspired example as to how we too should pray. (Can you give me a good reason why we shouldn't pray as the Prophet Joseph Smith prayed?)

Since the day when all the divinely-inspired modern prayers contained in the Doctrine and Covenants were written in the language of the King James 'language of prayer,' members of the Church who strive to be obedient have followed the inspired example of the prophet Joseph Smith's prayers ever since. Add to all this fact that the Latter-Day Saints have been consistently counseled by the living oracles of God to pray to Heavenly Father using the same 'language of prayer' that Joseph Smith used and modeled for us, and it's plain to see why faithful, testimony-bearing members of the Church have been following the prophet's example of prayer ever since.

But as you've already written in an earlier post on this thread, you don't care about what the leaders of the Church have to say on this subject; and as one endowed with the sacred power of agency you are free to pick any path you choose.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, mnn727 said:

Not a lot of prayers are offered (publicly at least) in air traffic control, and God may be the only one that can understand Indian English.

However Chinese speaking people outnumber us by a factor of 4 according to Google 

You're either missing my point, or deliberately blowing it off, possibly for comedic effect.  

My comment about English being a kind of lingua franca had nothing to do with prayer.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Stargazer

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, mnn727 said:

I checked the date on my phones Gospel Library app. I just double checked it:  Copyright 1966

I just checked my Gospel Library app, and you are correct about the copyright date. However, on that same title page it is indicated that the book got "English approval" in 1996, which post dates the copyright date by 30 years. 

The reason I thought you were way early is that I recall the book being introduced in the Sunday School gospel doctrine course about that time, 1996. 

It's academic anyway, because the Church doesn't carry discontinued lesson manuals on its website or mobile apps. I think we can safely assume all of the content on there is live. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Scott Lloyd