History of using Thee, Thy, Thou, etc. in prayers

[Scott Lloyd]

11 hours ago, Stargazer said:

What I am making an issue out of, is the apparent claim that that form is generally recognized as the "sacred language of prayer".  But if you or whoever want to designate the second person singular informal form of "you" as the "official" LDS prayer mode, fine.  As I have said, that is how I pray in English.  

That being said, I still don't like it being designated as "official".  For one thing, too many people trying to use it don't use it correctly and it causes me to cringe. For another, it provides an additional barrier to new converts feeling at ease praying in meetings.  

In a related murmur (thanks, Scott), I'd also like it if someone would stop people from concluding their talks as if they had just said a prayer.  We conclude public talks "in the name of Jesus Christ", but too many people say "in the name of thy Son".

 

I agree about concluding talks that way. I think speakers do it thoughtlessly out of habit. 

Edited to add: As for the earlier part of your post, I'm more inclined to cringe when I hear someone using the you/your form than I am when I hear someone making an earnest effort to use the language of prayer but maybe getting a thee in place of a thou, this because I am cognizant of the counsel from prophets and apostles. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

The fact is I was well aware of the full nature of Naaman's actual complaint when I wrote that line and afterward thought there was a chance someone would call me out for drawing on only a part of the full story, and so you did. My point was that Naaman was disobedient in general, at first refusing to dip into the river Jordan even once, let alone seven times. He thought the whole idea of bathing in Jordan's 'inferior' waters multiple times was silly and absurd, much like those on this board who disagree about the need to use the language of prayer think the idea of a sacred language derived from what was at one time everyday English is silly and absurd. They think the everyday English of the past is too humble and 'impure' a source upon which to build a sacred language. Similarly, Naaman thought the prophet's method for wellness -- bathing multiple times in the less than pristine waters of Jordan -- was beneath someone of his position, education and wealth.

The problem that I see with your example is that most of us have not refused to bathe in the water. I was raised using "thee" etc. It was the language I used for decades and most often still use.

It has only been recently, with my most heart felt prayers that I have done any differently. You see it as disobedience or lack of faith or whatever. The last couple of years I found "You" to be the language of when I was most holding on to the Lord and felt closest to Him. 

If using those terms means something to you then please use them. For myself I continue to use them because that was how I was taught and they come out without thinking about it, but I no longer feel that everyone needs to use them to have that respect nor do they need to be used on every prayer. 

[Tacenda]

51 minutes ago, Rain said:

The problem that I see with your example is that most of us have not refused to bathe in the water. I was raised using "thee" etc. It was the language I used for decades and most often still use.

It has only been recently, with my most heart felt prayers that I have done any differently. You see it as disobedience or lack of faith or whatever. The last couple of years I found "You" to be the language of when I was most holding on to the Lord and felt closest to Him. 

If using those terms means something to you then please use them. For myself I continue to use them because that was how I was taught and they come out without thinking about it, but I no longer feel that everyone needs to use them to have that respect nor do they need to be used on every prayer. 

I remember my prayers being so structured because of the lessons in church of how to respectfully pray...on my knees, using the proper words of thee, thou, thy etc., remembering to thank first for all of my blessings, and then ask for blessings or whatever else. I believe my prayers became so repetitive that I was soon tiring of my heavenly father having to listen to them that I eventually quit saying prayers when I had my faith crisis. Before it was out of obedience to say them. Now when I do pray it isn't like before and I get so much more from them. Oh the tapes that ran in my brain....

[mnn727]

22 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Probably because he knew English was going to become the modern world's universal language.

More people speak Chinese and Spanish than English

[mnn727]

20 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

What actually matters is that IN OUR DAY, the age of the Restored Gospel, the resurrected Jesus Christ inspired the prophet Joseph Smith to translate the Book of Mormon, the Book of Moses, the Book of Abraham and the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible into King James style English. What's more, the Lord Jesus Christ also inspired Joseph Smith to write the modern revelations and prayers found in the modern Doctrine and Covenants in King James Style English. 

Did he? or did Joseph, being only familiar with the KJV translate into what he (meaning Joseph) felt was the way to write scripture, modeled after the only scripture he knew previously?

I also would not say the D&C is in KJV English for the most part.

[mnn727]

20 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

 Bottom line? While some contrarian voices here may enjoy the thrills and chills of skating on thin ice, I don't.

Elder Holland must enjoy thin ice also as his talks when quoting scripture usually will say "Other versions translate that as......." which then clarifies his point.

[mnn727]

18 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I, too, agree that Shakespeare was inspired by God (well, except for Titus Andronicus...)

Macbeth was inspired by God?  Hamlet?

[bluebell]

58 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I remember my prayers being so structured because of the lessons in church of how to respectfully pray...on my knees, using the proper words of thee, thou, thy etc., remembering to thank first for all of my blessings, and then ask for blessings or whatever else. I believe my prayers became so repetitive that I was soon tiring of my heavenly father having to listen to them that I eventually quit saying prayers when I had my faith crisis. Before it was out of obedience to say them. Now when I do pray it isn't like before and I get so much more from them. Oh the tapes that ran in my brain....

I noticed that the missionary Preach My Gospel no longer teaches people to pray using the old steps (1-Address Heavenly Father, We thank thee..., We ask thee, Close in the name of...).  Now it teaches people to pray this way-

• Address our Heavenly Father (Our Father in Heaven...)
• Express the feelings of your heart (gratitude, questions, requests, so on)
• Close (in the name of Jesus Christ, amen).

That's it now.  Like you, i have found myself struggling to say meaningful prayers when trying to stick to the script that I had been taught and that I'd taught as a missionary to others.  I had to force myself out of the script in order to have meaningful prayers.  I'm glad to know the church has stopped teaching prayer in such a structured way.  I feel certain that the church never meant for it to actually become a script and was instead just trying to provide simple instructions for people who honestly didn't know how to pray.  But like so many other things, it's easy for such teachings to take on a life of their own, separate from their original purpose.

[Scott Lloyd]

22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I noticed that the missionary Preach My Gospel no longer teaches people to pray using the old steps (1-Address Heavenly Father, We thank thee..., We ask thee, Close in the name of...).  Now it teaches people to pray this way-

• Address our Heavenly Father (Our Father in Heaven...)
• Express the feelings of your heart (gratitude, questions, requests, so on)
• Close (in the name of Jesus Christ, amen).

That's it now.  Like you, i have found myself struggling to say meaningful prayers when trying to stick to the script that I had been taught and that I'd taught as a missionary to others.  I had to force myself out of the script in order to have meaningful prayers.  I'm glad to know the church has stopped teaching prayer in such a structured way.  I feel certain that the church never meant for it to actually become a script and was instead just trying to provide simple instructions for people who honestly didn't know how to pray.  But like so many other things, it's easy for such teachings to take on a life of their own, separate from their original purpose.

Bear in mind that Preach My Gospel was written in such a way that it could be quickly translated into many languages, so they were probably wary of English-centric content when they prepared it. Thus, I don't know that I would read too much into how it teaches such concepts as prayer steps. 

As far as I know the clear instruction to use the language of prayer in English has never been repealed. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Bear in mind that Preach My Gospel was written in such a way that it could be quickly translated into many languages, so they were probably wary of English-centric content when they prepared it. Thus, I don't know that I would read too much into how it teaches such concepts as prayer steps. 

As far as I know the clear instruction to use the language of prayer in English has never been repealed. 

PMG is an official church publication meant specifically for nonmembers and converts to teach them the doctrine of the gospel.  It has been around since 2004.  It specifically includes a section on 'How to Pray'.

Why wouldn't i consider it an authority on the subject of what the church wants investigators and new converts to learn about prayer?  Especially in conjunction with other correlated LDS works?

The Gospel Essentials manual, which also includes a section titled "How to Pray" and which says in its entirety-
 

Quote

 

"No matter where we are, whether we stand or kneel, whether we pray vocally or silently, whether we pray privately or in behalf of a group, we should always pray in faith, “with a sincere heart, with real intent” (Moroni 10:4).

As we pray to our Heavenly Father, we should tell Him what we really feel in our hearts, confide in Him, ask Him for forgiveness, plead with Him, thank Him, express our love for Him. We should not repeat meaningless words and phrases (see Matthew 6:7–8). We should always ask that His will be done, remembering that what we desire may not be best for us (see 3 Nephi 18:20). At the end of our prayer, we close in the name of Jesus Christ (see 3 Nephi 18:19)."

 

That's all the church says about 'how to pray.'

In 2003 Elder Russel M. Nelson gave a conference talk which included a whole section on "how to pray."  He said-

Quote

 

How to Pray

Jesus taught us how.4 We pray to our Heavenly Father,5 in the name of Jesus Christ,6 by the power of the Holy Ghost.7 This is the “true order of prayer,”8 in contrast to “vain repetitions”9 or recitations given to “be seen of men.”10

Jesus revealed that we pray to a wise Father who knows what things we have need of, before we ask Him.11

Mormon taught his son, Moroni, that we should pray “with all the energy of heart.”12 Nephi exclaimed, “I pray continually for [my people] by day, and mine eyes water my pillow by night, … and I cry unto my God in faith, and I know that he will hear my cry.”13

The sweet power of prayer can be intensified by fasting, on occasion, when appropriate to a particular need.14

Prayers can be offered even in silence. One can think a prayer, especially when words would interfere.15 We often kneel to pray; we may stand or be seated.16 Physical position is less important than is spiritual submission to God.

We close our prayer “in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.”17 When we hear another’s prayer, we audibly add our “amen,” meaning, “That is my prayer, too.”18

 

Again, he does not include any admonition to stick to a script or special language.

The church has a section for youth on how to pray.  It says-

Quote

 

As you pray, recognize that Father in Heaven is near and He is listening.

Prayer is a gift of our Father in Heaven to every soul. Prayer is most effective when we strive to be clean and obedient, with worthy motives, and are willing to do what He asks. Humble, trusting prayer brings direction and peace.

Don’t worry about your clumsily expressed feelings. Just talk to your compassionate, understanding Father. You are His precious child whom He loves perfectly and wants to help. As you pray, recognize that Father in Heaven is near and He is listening.

A key to improved prayer is to learn to ask the right questions. Consider changing from asking for the things you want to honestly seeking what He wants for you. Then as you learn His will, pray that you will be led to have the strength to fulfill it.

Pray even when you have no desire to pray. That is when you most need to pray. Never feel you are too unworthy to pray.

Should you ever feel distanced from our Father, it could be for many reasons. Whatever the cause, as you continue to plead for help, He will guide you to do that which will restore your confidence that He is near. Pray even when you have no desire to pray. That is when you most need to pray. Never feel you are too unworthy to pray.

Often when we pray for help with a significant matter, Heavenly Father will give us gentle promptings that require us to think, exercise faith, work, at times struggle, then act. It is a step-by-step process that enables us to discern inspired answers.

His answers will seldom come while you are on your knees praying, even when you may plead for an immediate response. Rather, He will prompt you in quiet moments when the Spirit can most effectively touch your mind and heart. You should find periods of quiet time to recognize when you are being instructed and strengthened. Be thankful that sometimes God lets you struggle for a long time before that answer comes.

It is so hard when sincere prayer about something you desire very much is not answered the way you want. The Savior taught, “Whatsoever ye ask the Father in my name it shall be given unto you, that is expedient for you” (D&C 88:64; emphasis added). At times it is difficult to recognize what is best or expedientfor you over time.

You are asked to look for an answer to your prayers. Obey the Master’s counsel to “study it out in your mind” (D&C 9:8). Often you will think of a solution; as you seek confirmation that your answer is right, help will come. It may be through your prayers, or as an impression of the Holy Ghost, and at times by the intervention of others.

An important aspect of prayer is gratitude. When we contemplate the incomparable gift of prayer and the limitless blessings that flow from it, honest appreciation fills our mind and heart to overflowing with thanksgiving.

From the April 2007 general conference address “Using the Supernal Gift of Prayer,” (Ensign or Liahona, May 2007, 8–11).

 

It also is completely silent on using archaic English words or a prescribed script.

I could continue to post more examples but I think this is enough for now.  I asked before, can anyone produce an example that the church, right now, teaches people to pray using archaic English?

And my earlier question still stands, given all of the evidence, why shouldn't I consider what the church teaches in PMG to be relevant to this discussion?  

[deli_llama]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It also is completely silent on using archaic English words or a prescribed script.

I could continue to post more examples but I think this is enough for now.  I asked before, can anyone produce an example that the church, right now, teaches people to pray using archaic English?

 

You know what else is completely silent on the matter of using archaic English? The instructions in the temple. I kinda figure that if it really mattered then it might be mentioned there, or in the least every prayer would be offered using that form. It isn't. I have heard prayers offered both ways, and prayers offered with both ways at once.  

So, I can't produce one of the sources your are asking for, but I can point out where the lack of it being taught is as notable as the omission in PMG. 

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, mnn727 said:

More people speak Chinese and Spanish than English

Yeah, but due to the influence of the United States and earlier Britain's, English has become a kind of lingua franca.  For example, the language of international air traffic control is English.  India has many non-mutually-intelligible languages, and English is frequently used a bridge language between them.

[Bobbieaware]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

The problem that I see with your example is that most of us have not refused to bathe in the water. I was raised using "thee" etc. It was the language I used for decades and most often still use.

It has only been recently, with my most heart felt prayers that I have done any differently. You see it as disobedience or lack of faith or whatever. The last couple of years I found "You" to be the language of when I was most holding on to the Lord and felt closest to Him. 

If using those terms means something to you then please use them. For myself I continue to use them because that was how I was taught and they come out without thinking about it, but I no longer feel that everyone needs to use them to have that respect nor do they need to be used on every prayer. 

I'm simply following the counsel of the leaders of the Church. If you feel better obeying the counsel in part, that is your prerogative.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I remember my prayers being so structured because of the lessons in church of how to respectfully pray...on my knees, using the proper words of thee, thou, thy etc., remembering to thank first for all of my blessings, and then ask for blessings or whatever else. I believe my prayers became so repetitive that I was soon tiring of my heavenly father having to listen to them that I eventually quit saying prayers when I had my faith crisis. Before it was out of obedience to say them. Now when I do pray it isn't like before and I get so much more from them. Oh the tapes that ran in my brain....

Even though I have been arguing with Scott about this, praying using archaic language is something that I do automatically and pretty much without hindrance.  It doesn't get in the way of divine communication, in my case, and it's quite transparent.  In fact, I do feel that get a benefit from using this language.  I do appreciate the fact that others are not so situated.  And I have also found that sometimes even I need to talk to God without any pretense of a special language.

I do believe that insisting upon this prayer language can have the effect of hindering communication with the divine, which is antithetical to the intended purpose of prayer. 

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

I'm simply following the counsel of the leaders of the Church. If you feel better obeying the counsel in part, that is your prerogative.

Unless you can show where the church currently counsels people to pray this way (and I am sincerely open to someone finding such counsel and sharing it here), then rain is also fully obeying the church's counsel on how to pray.

[Rain]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I remember my prayers being so structured because of the lessons in church of how to respectfully pray...on my knees, using the proper words of thee, thou, thy etc., remembering to thank first for all of my blessings, and then ask for blessings or whatever else. I believe my prayers became so repetitive that I was soon tiring of my heavenly father having to listen to them that I eventually quit saying prayers when I had my faith crisis. Before it was out of obedience to say them. Now when I do pray it isn't like before and I get so much more from them. Oh the tapes that ran in my brain....

Rep point.

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I noticed that the missionary Preach My Gospel no longer teaches people to pray using the old steps (1-Address Heavenly Father, We thank thee..., We ask thee, Close in the name of...).  Now it teaches people to pray this way-

• Address our Heavenly Father (Our Father in Heaven...)
• Express the feelings of your heart (gratitude, questions, requests, so on)
• Close (in the name of Jesus Christ, amen).

That's it now.  Like you, i have found myself struggling to say meaningful prayers when trying to stick to the script that I had been taught and that I'd taught as a missionary to others.  I had to force myself out of the script in order to have meaningful prayers.  I'm glad to know the church has stopped teaching prayer in such a structured way.  I feel certain that the church never meant for it to actually become a script and was instead just trying to provide simple instructions for people who honestly didn't know how to pray.  But like so many other things, it's easy for such teachings to take on a life of their own, separate from their original purpose.

I appreciate you including all your quotes.  

I was thinking about this all this morning.  A few months ago my youngest mentioned that his seminary teacher's prayers were more "conversational".  I have thought over and over that.  Thought how my personal prayers are very different than my group prayers, even within the family - and they should be, but that there was something missing in my group prayers that was there in my personal prayers. This made my heart ache some because I have shown that example to my children and I have wondered if it has been a stumbling block for them.  So with the two children I have had at home I have tried to figure out how to make my prayers much more personal within our family. The examples you gave are springing ideas to mind and I would like to use them now for FHE. I appreciate you showing them to me so I can be aware of them.  

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Rain said:

Rep point.

I appreciate you including all your quotes.  

I was thinking about this all this morning.  A few months ago my youngest mentioned that his seminary teacher's prayers were more "conversational".  I have thought over and over that.  Thought how my personal prayers are very different than my group prayers, even within the family - and they should be, but that there was something missing in my group prayers that was there in my personal prayers. This made my heart ache some because I have shown that example to my children and I have wondered if it has been a stumbling block for them.  So with the two children I have had at home I have tried to figure out how to make my prayers much more personal within our family. The examples you gave are springing ideas to mind and I would like to use them now for FHE. I appreciate you showing them to me so I can be aware of them.  

I have somehow run out of rep. points or i'd rep this.

It's been really helpful to me as well.  I have been amazed at how much I have gotten out of this thread.  I started it more out of curiosity than anything else but all this studying about what the church seems to be saying now about prayer has really impacted me. 

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, mnn727 said:

Macbeth was inspired by God?  Hamlet?

Absolutely. The Good, the True, and the Beautiful all lead us to God.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

PMG is an official church publication meant specifically for nonmembers and converts to teach them the doctrine of the gospel.  It has been around since 2004.  It specifically includes a section on 'How to Pray'.

Why wouldn't i consider it an authority on the subject of what the church wants investigators and new converts to learn about prayer?  Especially in conjunction with other correlated LDS works?

The Gospel Essentials manual, which also includes a section titled "How to Pray" and which says in its entirety-
 

That's all the church says about 'how to pray.'

In 2003 Elder Russel M. Nelson gave a conference talk which included a whole section on "how to pray."  He said-

Again, he does not include any admonition to stick to a script or special language.

The church has a section for youth on how to pray.  It says-

It also is completely silent on using archaic English words or a prescribed script.

I could continue to post more examples but I think this is enough for now.  I asked before, can anyone produce an example that the church, right now, teaches people to pray using archaic English?

And my earlier question still stands, given all of the evidence, why shouldn't I consider what the church teaches in PMG to be relevant to this discussion?  

The Church-published reference work True to the Faith (available on the "Gospel Library" app and on LDS.org as well as in hard copy from Church Distribution Centers) contains this instruction in the "Prayer" entry:

"Use language that shows love, respect, reverence, and closeness.

"The application of this principle will vary according to the language you speak. If you pray in English, for example, you should use the pronouns of the scriptures when you address God--Thee, Thou, Thy, and Thine, rather than the more common pronouns you, your, and yours. Regardless of the language, the principle remains the same: When you pray, you should use words that appropriately convey a loving, worshipful relationship with God. You may have some difficulty learning the language of prayer, but you will gradually become more comfortable with it as you pray and read the scriptures."

This is consistent with what I said before about praying in Swedish. The informal pronouns are used, as in other non-English languages, but it is expected one will use certain pronunciations and word forms (such as beder instead of ber for ask or pray) that convey sacred respect and reverence. 

Edited to add: The fact that a particular source is silent on what pronouns to use when praying in English does not necessarily mean prior counsel has been repealed. It could merely mean that it didn't occur to the speaker or writer to mention it or that, for whatever reason, he chose not to include it on that occasion. I have already suggested one possible reason why it's not in Preach My Gospel."

Furthermore, I would submit that "True to the Faith," like Gospel Principes, is also designed to be accessible and useful to new converts as well as youth and anyone seeking a fundamental understanding of gospel principles. 

Can you cite an authoritative, Church-published source that explicitly states it no longer matters what pronouns one uses when praying in English? 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

28 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The Church-published reference work True to the Faith (available on the "Gospel Library" app and on LDS.org as well as in hard copy from Church Distribution Centers) contains this instruction in the "Prayer" entry:

"Use language that shows love, respect, reverence, and closeness.

"The application of this principle will vary according to the language you speak. If you pray in English, for example, you should use the pronouns of the scriptures when you address God--Thee, Thou, Thy, and Thine, rather than the more common pronouns you, your, and yours. Regardless of the language, the principle remains the same: When you pray, you should use words that appropriately convey a loving, worshipful relationship with God. You may have some difficulty learning the language of prayer, but you will gradually become more comfortable with it as you pray and read the scriptures."

This is consistent with what I said before about praying in Swedish. The informal pronouns are used, as in other non-English languages, but it is expected one will use certain pronunciations and word forms (such as beder instead of ber for ask or pray) that convey sacred respect and reverence. 

Edited to add: The fact that a particular source is silent on what pronouns to use when praying in English does not necessarily mean prior counsel has been repealed. It could merely mean that it didn't occur to the speaker or writer to mention it or that, for whatever reason, he chose not to include it on that occasion. 

Furthermore, I would submit that "True to the Faith," like Gospel Principes, is also designed to be accessible and useful to new converts as well as youth and anyone seeking a fundamental understanding of gospel principles. 

Thank you for providing that example.  I really do appreciate it.  As far as i know, True to the Faith was published for the youth, and is an excellent resource.  

I completely agree that the the church supports praying using the archaic forms of English.  But it seems obvious that they don't push it like they used to, that they are not that concerned with people praying in that specific way.  They seem to have relaxed the standard on it.  All the searching that I've been doing, and i'm guessing that you and others have been doing as well, and we've only found one source so far that continues to teach it.  There might be another source out there too, that is current but still teaches it, but even if we find another one, that's still a change from previous years. 

 

[Bobbieaware]

4 hours ago, mnn727 said:

Elder Holland must enjoy thin ice also as his talks when quoting scripture usually will say "Other versions translate that as......." which then clarifies his point.

You're missing the point. In case you haven't noticed, this thread is about PRAYER and how English speaking Latter-Day Saints are counseled to use the special 'language of prayer'when communicating with Heavenly Father. For this reason, my focus here has been more particularly on the language used in the prayers found in the scriptures. I haven't focused much on the general text of the scriptures outside of the prayers. 

As a point of special interest, while the general text of each book of scripture in the LDS canon, including the King James Bible, is filled will modern personal pronouns, it just so happens that in every case when we come upon an account of someone praying, the individuals are recorded as speaking  to God in the very same language of prayer we modern saints have been counseled to use when we pray to Heavenly Father.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Thank you for providing that example.  I really do appreciate it.  As far as i know, True to the Faith was published for the youth, and is an excellent resource.  

I completely agree that the the church supports praying using the archaic forms of English.  But it seems obvious that they don't push it like they used to, that they are not that concerned with people praying in that specific way.  They seem to have relaxed the standard on it.  All the searching that I've been doing, and i'm guessing that you and others have been doing as well, and we've only found one source so far that continues to teach it.  There might be another source out there too, that is current but still teaches it, but even if we find another one, that's still a change from previous years. 

 

I don't recall the Church leaders ever "pushing it" with the intensity you seem to imply -- but I do recall absolute consistency whenever the subject was brought up. 

And by the way, I really haven't been working all that hard searching. I checked "True to the Faith" on a whim, and there it was.  I found it even before I saw your last post and, as luck would have it, was able to respond immediately.

I thought about checking Gospel Principles but didn't get to it. Fact is, I'm attending a conference right now and taking little odd snippets of time to post and to check the Internet with my iPod touch. 

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Unless you can show where the church currently counsels people to pray this way (and I am sincerely open to someone finding such counsel and sharing it here), then rain is also fully obeying the church's counsel on how to pray.

In addition to Scott's excellent post in response to your challenge, I would say one of the ways the General Authorities teach us is by example. This being the case, can you find a single recent General Conference prayer or temple dedication prayer that did not follow the guidelines of the LDS language of prayer? If using the language of prayer is no longer as important as it once was, why are there no examples of anyome in authority who has put the language of prayer aside?

[mnn727]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yeah, but due to the influence of the United States and earlier Britain's, English has become a kind of lingua franca.  For example, the language of international air traffic control is English.  India has many non-mutually-intelligible languages, and English is frequently used a bridge language between them.

Not a lot of prayers are offered (publicly at least) in air traffic control, and God may be the only one that can understand Indian English.

However Chinese speaking people outnumber us by a factor of 4 according to Google 

[mnn727]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The Church-published reference work True to the Faith (available on the "Gospel Library" app and on LDS.org as well as in hard copy from Church Distribution Centers) contains this instruction in the "Prayer" entry:

 

True to the Faith copyright 2004. The Gospel Library app also includes talks from the 70's. It included 'Our Heritage" from 1966, etc., so using it to prove "up to the minute" doctrines may not be as black and white as you want it to be.

Edited July 25, 2017 by mnn727