History of using Thee, Thy, Thou, etc. in prayers

[Five Solas]

It's interesting (to me, at least) how LDS have taken William Tyndale, his notion & usage of informal/familiar pronouns (which the KJV translators borrowed liberally) and completely stood him on his head.  The purpose of Tyndale's usage of these pronouns (which were already becoming archaic in his day) was to communicate to the reader that an individual could have a deeply personal and informal relationship with God.  Such language would have been wildly inappropriate to address the King of England. 

I authored a thread on this a couple years back.  Then as now, mfbukowski insists it's all meaningless nuance.  As the "Preacher" in Ecclesiastes says, "Nothing new under the sun."  

;0)

--Erik

Edited July 21, 2017 by Five Solas
typo

[hagoth7]

2 hours ago, Darren10 said:

Father, can you just let me go and travel to Europe? 

Vs.

Father, could I beg your approval for me to go and travel to Europe. 

Or, door #3: Dad, can we have some quality time in Europe starting next week?

Or. Do you wanna play catch?

2 hours ago, Darren10 said:

The former makes the father no better than the son. It only aknowledges the need for father's approval but presumes the son to be just as important as the father. Thr latter aknowledges the need to recoeve father's approval and the son seems willing to accept whatever the father decides. The latter shows much more respect than the former. We call Hod Father but we are to always aknowledge our unworthiness before Him. That we are nothing and He everything. 

Irrelevant. Neither expresses one iota of desire in spending real time together.

Dads don't care about being more important. We aren't. 

2 hours ago, Darren10 said:

but we are to always aknowledge our unworthiness before Him. That we are nothing and He everything. 

He will make mighty his sons.

Edited July 21, 2017 by hagoth7

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

But why more respectful in English when in other languages the more intimate/less respectful pronoun is used? The argument that we need to be more respectful in the English language but not in other languages seems rather arbitrary..?

ETA: Which is why it would be interesting to see what the instructions are in other languages for prayer pronouns.

Don't ask me- it is an English convention, probably based in Protestantism.  Latins use the familiar because the praying convention in Latin is the familiar form I guess.

"PATER NOSTER, qui es in caelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum"

But even the Revised Standard version in English says

Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.

Ask the translators not me.

Edit:  And so does the American Standard and the Douay Rheims translate it with "thy".  I learned it that way as a Catholic- has it changed??   How do YOU pray the "Our Father"?

Edit:  OK I have looked up some newer translations and they all use "you" etc

So clearly it appears to be a question of how old the translation is.   So the issue is probably familiarity with the language as used in the bible that the particular denomination feels comfortable with

That's my story and I am sticking to it until something better comes along!

Edited July 21, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

It's interesting (to me, at least) how LDS have taken William Tyndale, his notion & usage of informal/familiar pronouns (which the KJV translators borrowed liberally) and completely stood him on his head.  The purpose of Tyndale's usage of these pronouns (which were already becoming archaic in his day) was to communicate to the reader that an individual could have a deeply personal and informal relationship with God.  Such language would have been wildly inappropriate to address the King of England. 

I authored a thread on this a couple years back.  Then as now, mfbukowski insists it's all meaningless nuance.  As the "Preacher" in Ecclesiastes says, "Nothing new under the sun."  

;0)

--Erik

So it's not meaningless nuance?

All the bibles that agree with our archaic translation are also making the same meaningless nuance, so I see no reason to worry that we are somehow "doing it wrong"

If you can show how it is "wrong" I suppose we would have a conversation but as it is, we do not.

Edited July 21, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Remarkable to think this makes any difference at all

I speak English and those forms are part of English.  Much ado about nothing

Edited July 21, 2017 by mfbukowski

[Bobbieaware]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I haven't seen that supported anywhere, but if you know of a reference that supports that JS considered old english to be sacred, please share it.  That would be really interesting!

Isn't it obvious that because Joseph Smith was divinely inspired to translate the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price into King James English (not everyday English) that King James English would quite naturally become the de facto sacred language of the Restored Church? The fact that King James English is the sacred language of the LDS Church is underscored by the fact that the book of Doctrine and Covenants, a book of modern scripture, is also worded in King James English. Finally, the modern-day prayers recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants are also written in King James English. So since the inspired prayers recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants are spoken in the sacred language of King James English, doesn't it make perfect sense that we should follow in the footsteps of the prophet Joseph Smith and pray in the sacred language of scripture as well? Why is this a mystery? I don't get it.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[mfbukowski]

And for what it's worth, very very few in my Ward actually use thee and thou while praying.  And no one cares- no reprimands etc.   We are just glad to see them in church.

Praying out loud has always been difficult for me- to me it is showy and tends to become a talk about how well one can pray and think up cool stuff.  My real prayers are more like meditation and seldom use words.

I have never had trouble using thee and thou so that doesn't bother me, but since I do not like praying in public period, I can see how that would be another distraction and difficulty for people having to think about how to say something than thinking about the prayer

[Bobbieaware]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

So it's not meaningless nuance?

All the bibles that agree with our archaic translation are also making the same meaningless nuance, so I see no reason to worry that we are somehow "doing it wrong"

If you can show how it is "wrong" I suppose we would have a conversation but as it is, we do not.

If a priest, elder or high priest were to offer up a sacrament prayer and substitute the word 'you' for 'thee' or 'your' for 'thy,' even though the substituted words mean precisely the same thing as the original words recorded in the scriptures, there will be no distribution of the sacramental emblems to the congregation until the prayer is reread verbatim in the King James style English in which it was originally written. So those who offer up sacrament prayers are commanded, as it were, to say them in King James style English.

76 And the elder or priest shall administer it; and after this manner shall he administer it—he shall kneel with the church and call upon the Father in solemn prayer, saying:

77 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

78 The manner of administering the wine—he shall take the cup also, and say:

79 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, bluebell said:

Where did the idea come from that praying using those old english words was more formal/respectful and that's why we need to pray like that.  

One example of such teaching was expressed by Elder L. Tom Perry in General Conference-

"Second, use the sacred language of prayer. We should always address Deity by using the sacred pronouns thou, thee, thy, and thine. The late President Stephen L Richards gave us this wise counsel:

“We have discovered … a lack of proper teaching with reference to prayer. I know that I myself have been shocked out in the mission field as I have heard missionaries called on for prayer who seem to have had no experience or training whatever in the use of the language of prayer. …

“I think, my brethren, that in the quorums and in the classes, you would do well, as in the homes also, to teach the language of prayer—‘Thee and Thou,’ rather than ‘you.’ It always seems disappointing to me to have our Father in Heaven, our Lord, addressed as ‘you.’ It is surprising how much we see of this. … I think you might make note of it, and avail yourselves of any opportunities that may come in order to teach the sacred and reverential language of prayer.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1951, p. 175.)"

Old English words such as thee and thine were originally the less formal way to address someone (it was used to express familiarity, for example).  The formal or proper language was actually "You" and "your" etc.  I know that in spanish, people are taught to pray using the familiar form of "tu" instead of the formal "usted".  

Why is it different in English, and why is the usage of thee and thine even a thing that our leaders push?  

Traditional habits die hard, even when they are not truly so traditional.  On the other hand, respectful forms of address are disappearing in various areas.. Used to be that in a court of law, everyone called the Judge "Your honor," but now he is lucky even to be called "judge."  Similarly, many 19th century fathers insisted on being called "sir" or "Father," where now "Daddy" is more common -- and rightly so.  You are correct that thou (like German du, and Spanish-French tu) is the familiar form of address.  The language has changed through time, and now English thou and thee are formal and respectful in a religious context.

[Thinking]

You/Thou/Ye could just mix it all up like Alma talking to his son Corianton.

“And I command you to take it upon you to counsel with your elder brothers in your undertakings; for behold, thou art in thy youth, and ye stand in need to be nourished by your brothers. And give heed to their counsel.” (Alma 39:10)

[Bobbieaware]

7 hours ago, Thinking said:

You/Thou/Ye could just mix it all up like Alma talking to his son Corianton.

“And I command you to take it upon you to counsel with your elder brothers in your undertakings; for behold, thou art in thy youth, and ye stand in need to be nourished by your brothers. And give heed to their counsel.” (Alma 39:10)

We are talking about the sacred language of PRAYER or what manner of language we are to use when we communicate  with our Father in Heaven. The original post asks why are English speaking Church members taught to pray using what has come to be known as the "language of prayer?" Now if you can find a prayer to God in any of the standard works, especially in the Doctrine and Covenants (because that book of scripture was written in a day of modern English), where the sacred language isn't used in prayer, then I will yield to your point.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Scott Lloyd]

18 hours ago, Oliblish said:

I feel that this is something that we should allow to fade into the past.  I wouldn't be surprised if we don't hear about this from the pulpit again.

I was surprised you would say this immediately after quoting these words from Elder Oaks:

Quote

Brothers and sisters, the special language of prayer is much more than an artifact of the translation of the scriptures into English. Its use serves an important, current purpose. We know this because of modern revelations and because of the teachings and examples of modern prophets. The way we pray is important.

Was Elder Oaks lying or merely mistaken when he said this?

[Scott Lloyd]

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And for what it's worth, very very few in my Ward actually use thee and thou while praying.  And no one cares- no reprimands etc.   We are just glad to see them in church.

Praying out loud has always been difficult for me- to me it is showy and tends to become a talk about how well one can pray and think up cool stuff.  My real prayers are more like meditation and seldom use words.

I have never had trouble using thee and thou so that doesn't bother me, but since I do not like praying in public period, I can see how that would be another distraction and difficulty for people having to think about how to say something than thinking about the prayer

I've never been comfortable with what Robert Kirby once called "prayer as performance art."

That said, I have on occasion been inspired by a sincere, simple yet eloquent prayer given in public. I'm not comfortable doing it either, but I believe the Holy Ghost can guide us in what to say on those occasions.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

16 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

The answer is very simple. We pray using the same sacred form of English that's found in all four books of LDS scripture so that our prayers sound like the scriptures and, hopefully, impact the human heart and mind like the scriptures. Read the following first four verses from the Kirkland Temple dedicatory prayer, given in 1836, and it becomes obvious the Lord inspired the prophet Joseph Smith to compose that prayer using what was then considered throughout America to be the sacred and formal form of English found in the King James translation of the Holy Bible. 

1 Thanks be to thy name, O Lord God of Israel, who keepest covenant and showest mercy unto thy servants who walk uprightly before thee, with all their hearts—

2 Thou who hast commanded thy servants to build a house to thy name in this place [Kirtland].

3 And now thou beholdest, O Lord, that thy servants have done according to thy commandment.

4 And now we ask thee, Holy Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of thy bosom, in whose name alone salvation can be administered to the children of men, we ask thee, O Lord, to accept of this house, the workmanshipof the hands of us, thy servants, which thou didst command us to build. (D&C 109)

The scriptures are deliberately not translated into modern English so that there is a reverential barrier that separates the form of the English language used in our sacred writings and prayers and the informal form of English used in our everyday lives.

Furthermore, each and every prayer of dedication for a temple in this dispensation has been written with the thee/thou, thy/thine form, indicating that this form of address in prayers is not going away soon, not if we take our direction and example from prophets and apostles.

Incidentally, though I believe this is a fine post, for the sake of consistency (I mentioned this to someone a few days ago), I must point out that the city in Ohio is Kirtland, not "Kirkland."

Edited July 21, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[USU78]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Furthermore, each and every prayer of dedication for a temple in this dispensation has been written with the thee/thou, thy/thine form, indicating that this form of address in prayers is not going away soon, not if we take our direction and example from prophets and apostles.

Incidentally, though I believe this is a fine post, for the sake of consistency (I mentioned this to someone a few days ago), I must point out that the city in Ohio is Kirtland, not "Kirkland."

Kirkland is the brand of toilet tissue we buy in bulk

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

If a priest, elder or high priest were to offer up a sacrament prayer and substitute the word 'you' for 'thee' or 'your' for 'thy,' even though the substituted words mean precisely the same thing as the original words recorded in the scriptures, there will be no distribution of the sacramental emblems to the congregation until the prayer is reread verbatim in the King James style English in which it was originally written. So those who offer up sacrament prayers are commanded, as it were, to say them in King James style English.

76 And the elder or priest shall administer it; and after this manner shall he administer it—he shall kneel with the church and call upon the Father in solemn prayer, saying:

77 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

78 The manner of administering the wine—he shall take the cup also, and say:

79 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

That is an ordinance.

What does that have to do with personal prayer?

[Bobbieaware]

24 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Furthermore, each and every prayer of dedication for a temple in this dispensation has been written with the thee/thou, thy/thine form, indicating that this form of address in prayers is not going away soon, not if we take our direction and example from prophets and apostles.

Incidentally, though I believe this is a fine post, for the sake of consistency (I mentioned this to someone a few days ago), I must point out that the city in Ohio is Kirtland, not "Kirkland."

It was a brain f--t, Scott. I know as well as the back of my hand that it's Kirtland, not Kirkland.

[mfbukowski]

33 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I've never been comfortable with what Robert Kirby once called "prayer as performance art."

That said, I have on occasion been inspired by a sincere, simple yet eloquent prayer given in public. I'm not comfortable doing it either, but I believe the Holy Ghost can guide us in what to day on those occasions.

I sometimes am responsible to pray publicly in the temple, and though that prayer is not scripted, there is wording which must be used. 

I find that very very hard! We're it not for the Holy Ghost, I could not do it. I would be a mass of green jello.

 

[Bobbieaware]

17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

That is an ordinance.

What does that have to do with personal prayer?

😀 All the prayers given at General Conference are said in the "language of prayer" format, as are each of the Temple dedicatory prayers. Do all these suffice to create a well-established pattern of how the Apostles and Prophets pray? If so, why not just follow in their footsteps and do as they have counseled us to do? Must everything become a subject of debate and a battle of wills?  😏

Edited July 21, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

😀 All the prayers given at General Conference are said in the "language of prayer" format, as are each of the Temple dedicatory prayers. Do all these suffice to create a well-established pattern of how the Apostles and Prophets pray? If so, why not just follow in their footsteps and do as they have counseled us to do? Must everything become a subject of debate and a battle of wills?  😏

Hopefully most people understand that asking questions and trying to understand why things are done, is not the same thing as debate or a battle of wills.  The topic of this thread isn't 'what is the well-established pattern of prayer.'  It's 'why do we pray the way we do'?  

[Jeanne]

Note that I haven't read every page here on this thread..but I did want to comment how I like thou, thee and all of that.  After reading Shakespear..I would talk like that.  I remember after reading the Book of Mormon straight through twice, .I could mot get my head out of it..and would walk up to people I work with and say.."What say ye?"...  I love the language of early days...even when I say..aint got none,

Edited July 21, 2017 by Jeanne

[Scott Lloyd]

48 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Kirkland is the brand of toilet tissue we buy in bulk

A former co-worker of mine spoke with annoyance of a missionary companion he had. They were serving in the Kirtland area, and the guy continually mispronounced it as "Kirkland" in prayers and such. He was right there in the city and he couldn't even get the name right.

 

[bluebell]

Just now, Jeanne said:

Note that I haven't read every page here on this thread..but I did want to comment how I like thou, thee and all of that.  After reading Shakespear..I would talk like that.  I remember after reading the Book of Mormon straight through..I could get my head out of it..and would walk up to people I work with and say.."What say ye?"...  I love the language of early days...even when I say..anit got none,

I get that way after I read Jane Austen.  The language takes over my head for a while!

[Scott Lloyd]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Remarkable to think this makes any difference at all

I speak English and those forms are part of English.  Much ado about nothing

Most of the criticisms that anti-Mormons bring against the Church of Jesus Christ are much ado about nothing.

Take, for example, the occurrence of adieu in the text of the Book of Mormon. That very definitely is much adieu about nothing.

(Sorry. I couldn't resist.)

[Scott Lloyd]

10 hours ago, Thinking said:

You/Thou/Ye could just mix it all up like Alma talking to his son Corianton.

“And I command you to take it upon you to counsel with your elder brothers in your undertakings; for behold, thou art in thy youth, and ye stand in need to be nourished by your brothers. And give heed to their counsel.” (Alma 39:10)

I wonder if this is by design.

I see Alma speaking to his wayward son with a mixture of consternation, stern indignation, frustration, care and loving counsel. Given the mixture in attitudes, is it any wonder that there would be a variation between the more formal and the more familiar forms of address?