Psychedelic Drugs and Spiritual Experiences

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

😉 Back during the time period covered in your answer to question 1.,  who were your favoiite musical groups and what what were your favorite songs?

Anything by CSNY, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix and Ten Years After. Favorite songs: Cowgirl in the Sand, Hush, Dazed and Confused, All Along the Watchtower, and I'd Love to Change the World.

 

at the age of 58 I turned into a country music fan

Edited July 9, 2017 by rodheadlee

[Bobbieaware]

3 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Anything by CSNY, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix and Ten Years After. Favorite songs: Cowgirl in the Sand, Hush, Dazed and Confused, All Along the Watchtower, and I'd Love to Change the World.

 

at the age of 58 I turned into a country music fan

Oh no! Say it ain't so!

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

In a recent study, several religious leaders participated in an experiment to test if using psychedelic mushrooms compared with or enhanced spiritual experiences.

1. Would you participate in such a study?

2. Is this a valid way to test spiritual experiences?

3. Do you believe your experiences with the Spirit as a Latter-Day Saint can be tested in a lab situation or replicated at will?

4. What would be a valid scientific test of your experience and would you subject it to such testing?

This stuff is old hat.  The Meninnger Foundation began studying drugs and other aids to transpersonal psychological experiences back in the late 60s, and held heavy annual seminars on the issues involved for decades -- inviting professionals and scholars to take part in the studies -- everything from drugs to near death experiences being on the table for discussion.  Generations of reports are available, and the personal LSD experiences of Harvard professors Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert (Baba Ram Dass) appear to have gotten the ball rolling.  At UCLA, Carlos Castaneda wrote his doctoral dissertation in anthropology on his supposed experiences with psychedelic mushrooms (amanita muscaria), etc., courtesy of a Yaqui Indian sorceror.  The Beat Generation had explored it.  Ken Keasy novelized it.   Hindu yogis laughed at it. The upshot of all that was that drugs were not the ultimate focus, and could easily become a distraction from real cosmic experiences, but that they might be a starting point for some people.  Others have used biofeedback machines to school themselves in obtaining the experiences which it normally takes about 30-years of training for a zen master -- monastic prayer & meditation having been the traditional technique used in the West.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[rodheadlee]

5 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Oh no! Say it ain't so!

It's where all the good guitar players went;

[MiserereNobis]

1 minute ago, rodheadlee said:

It's where all the good guitar players went;

As long as you're listening to real country music and not the pop-boy-frat junk that's on the radio

http://www.savingcountrymusic.com

 

[RevTestament]

11 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Anything by CSNY, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix and Ten Years After. Favorite songs: Cowgirl in the Sand, Hush, Dazed and Confused, All Along the Watchtower, and I'd Love to Change the World.

 

at the age of 58 I turned into a country music fan

I was with you until the country music fan... 

[Tacenda]

I believe it was not too out of the ordinary for the early LDS leaders to try it. Here is a paper for Sunstone by Robert T. Beckstead that infers that Joseph Smith, Jr. may have tried it. And that his grandson Frederick M. Smith did. http://docplayer.net/43944040-Restoration-and-the-sacred-mushroom-did-joseph-smith-use-psychedelic-substances-to-facilitate-visionary-experiences.html

Also, here is a link mentioning James E. Talmage dabbled in it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_E._Talmage

And I do remember a story with Steve Jobs taking LSD and how it changed his life. “Taking LSD was a profound experience, one of the most important things in my life. LSD shows you that there’s another side to the coin, and you can’t remember it when it wears off, but you know it. It reinforced my sense of what was important—creating great things instead of making money, putting things back into the stream of history and of human consciousness as much as I could.”

[rodheadlee]

5 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I was with you until the country music fan... 

 

[rodheadlee]

7 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I was with you until the country music fan... 

" And they all moved away from me on the group W bench"

[MiserereNobis]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I believe it was not too out of the ordinary for the early LDS leaders to try it. Here is a paper for Sunstone by Robert T. Beckstead that infers that Joseph Smith, Jr. may have tried it. And that his grandson Frederick M. Smith did. http://docplayer.net/43944040-Restoration-and-the-sacred-mushroom-did-joseph-smith-use-psychedelic-substances-to-facilitate-visionary-experiences.html

Interesting. I just glanced at it but will read it. I'm curious what Mormons think of this. I imagine they would discredit it in some fashion.

 

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Also, here is a link mentioning James E. Talmage dabbled in it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_E._Talmage

This is a bit misleading. Talmage tried hash, not psychedelics:

In the spring of 1884, while at Johns Hopkins, Talmage journaled about laboratory experiments involving the ingestion of hashish, reporting that interviews with users conducted by himself and two colleagues yielded very different accounts of the experience.^[5] Talmage noted that the ill effects of opium were very unpleasant and had been well-documented, "but the ill effects are reported very low in the Haschich or Hemp administration; and we have concluded to try effect of a small dose upon ourselves ... though I very much dislike the idea of doing such a thing, for as yet I have never known what it is to be narcotized either by tobacco, alcohol, or any drug."^[5] Thus, on three occasions, March 22, April 5, and April 6, 1884, Talmage ingested increasing doses; on the first two occasions he felt no effect, but on the third he reported simply, "[c]ontinued my experiment by taking 20 grains Cannabis Indica and the effect was felt in a not very agreeable way."^[5]

Edited July 9, 2017 by MiserereNobis

[Tacenda]

16 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Interesting. I just glanced at it but will read it. I'm curious what Mormons think of this. I imagine they would discredit it in some fashion.

 

This is a bit misleading. Talmage tried hash, not psychedelics:

In the spring of 1884, while at Johns Hopkins, Talmage journaled about laboratory experiments involving the ingestion of hashish, reporting that interviews with users conducted by himself and two colleagues yielded very different accounts of the experience.^[5] Talmage noted that the ill effects of opium were very unpleasant and had been well-documented, "but the ill effects are reported very low in the Haschich or Hemp administration; and we have concluded to try effect of a small dose upon ourselves ... though I very much dislike the idea of doing such a thing, for as yet I have never known what it is to be narcotized either by tobacco, alcohol, or any drug."^[5] Thus, on three occasions, March 22, April 5, and April 6, 1884, Talmage ingested increasing doses; on the first two occasions he felt no effect, but on the third he reported simply, "[c]ontinued my experiment by taking 20 grains Cannabis Indica and the effect was felt in a not very agreeable way."^[5]

I'm sorry, I guess I lumped them all together. That's how much I know. 

[thesometimesaint]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

In a recent study, several religious leaders participated in an experiment to test if using psychedelic mushrooms compared with or enhanced spiritual experiences.

1. Would you participate in such a study?

2. Is this a valid way to test spiritual experiences?

3. Do you believe your experiences with the Spirit as a Latter-Day Saint can be tested in a lab situation or replicated at will?

4. What would be a valid scientific test of your experience and would you subject it to such testing?

1. Probably not, but have nothing against others doing so.

2. No.

3. No. I don't believe spiritual experiences of any one's faith can be tested in a lab.

4. At best correlation is not causation.

[Tacenda]

http://hiddenfromhumanity.com/thoughts/the-power-of-dmt-and-my-experience-of-the-afterlife/

I guess the experience with DMT can take you to the afterlife. 

ETA: I believe the people in the Bible did mushrooms. The talking donkey story in the Bible probably written by someone who was taking them. http://jackherer.com/about-2/mushroomsreligion/

Edited July 9, 2017 by Tacenda

[MiserereNobis]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

http://hiddenfromhumanity.com/thoughts/the-power-of-dmt-and-my-experience-of-the-afterlife/

I guess the experience with DMT can take you to the afterlife. 

There is an interesting book that a doctor wrote about his experiments with DMT called DMT: The Spirit Molecule.

Here's the description from amazon:

Quote

From 1990 to 1995 Dr. Rick Strassman conducted U.S. Government-approved and funded clinical research at the University of New Mexico in which he injected sixty volunteers with DMT, one of the most powerful psychedelics known. His detailed account of those sessions is an extraordinarily riveting inquiry into the nature of the human mind and the therapeutic potential of psychedelics. DMT, a plant-derived chemical found in the psychedelic Amazon brew, ayahuasca, is also manufactured by the human brain. In Strassman's volunteers, it consistently produced near-death and mystical experiences. Many reported convincing encounters with intelligent nonhuman presences, aliens, angels, and spirits. Nearly all felt that the sessions were among the most profound experiences of their lives. 

Strassman's research connects DMT with the pineal gland, considered by Hindus to be the site of the seventh chakra and by Rene Descartes to be the seat of the soul. DMT: The Spirit Molecule makes the bold case that DMT, naturally released by the pineal gland, facilitates the soul's movement in and out of the body and is an integral part of the birth and death experiences, as well as the highest states of meditation and even sexual transcendence. Strassman also believes that "alien abduction experiences" are brought on by accidental releases of DMT. If used wisely, DMT could trigger a period of remarkable progress in the scientific exploration of the most mystical regions of the human mind and soul.

 

[deli_llama]

59 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

There is an interesting book that a doctor wrote about his experiments with DMT called DMT: The Spirit Molecule.

First off, you would be interesting to sit down with and pick your brain for a while.

I am glad I deleted a response I started on the first page and read the rest of the post. I second your recommendation, and any of his other works on DMT, and also  melatonin (although that is necessarily connected to this topic, still good).  Thanks for your suggestion. I redownloaded my audio copy and dusted off the codex since it has been a year or so.

Another suggestion that is well written to a more lay audience on the topic lab studies of spiritual experiences is O'Leary's and Beauregard's The Spiritual Brain.

[Honorentheos]

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

In a recent study, several religious leaders participated in an experiment to test if using psychedelic mushrooms compared with or enhanced spiritual experiences.

1. Would you participate in such a study?

2. Is this a valid way to test spiritual experiences?

3. Do you believe your experiences with the Spirit as a Latter-Day Saint can be tested in a lab situation or replicated at will?

4. What would be a valid scientific test of your experience and would you subject it to such testing?

1. Yes. I've never done psychedelics but would not be opposed to participating in a scientific study.

2. I believe this is the wrong question. The use of psychedelics is generally seen as aids in experiencing transcendence of self, of becoming one with god, whatever that may be, or opening otherwise closed doors in the mind. It the observation of people using psychedelics and having them describe their experiences "valid"? Of course. But you seem to be describing spiritual experiences in a different way.

3. As a former believer who had what I then believed to be sincere and powerful experiences I would probably have been ambivalent about this. What I then described as spiritual experience covered a spectrum of inner events that ranged from the slight dopamine eupohoria that comes with discovery or confirmation. It also included a very transcendent experience involving music and a group singing where there was a real feeling of the boundaries between individual, other, and god falling away like the veil being parted. I don't think that "replication at will" would be assumed by anyone who is serious about the subject. Context seems to matter and as a wise man once said, you never step twice into the same river.

4. Again, I think the question of replication seems implied here and shouldn't be. But as to valid forms of testing, I'd be very interested in the results of research that was able to catalog reactions, doses and context in a way that became useful and repeatable for therapy and individual mental wellness and enhancement. I think there has to be something of the ritual and the subjective inherent to the experience but if, say, Ayahuasca could be legally obtained and guided use performed in the US because of studies that allowed it to be seen as therapeutic rather than dangerous or recreational then I'd definitely volunteer to be part of that testing.

[boblloyd91]

So I'm by no means a neurologist, but we are physical beings so when Divinity works within us some part of the brain will be activated. I know some have taken studies such as these as proof against God but I think studies like this show simply what parts of the brain are activated in spiritual experience. 

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

" And they all moved away from me on the group W bench"

I'm a true country fan - which is why I like the Brit band Munford and Sons.  

Here is another good group - The Sleepy Man Banjo Boys:

 

[rodheadlee]

So nobody recognized the quote from Alice's Restaurant? I though there were some old hippies here.

[mapman]

This is a really interesting topic to me! As MiserereNobis pointed out, religious experiences seem to come when you are in an altered state of consciousness, whether it be praying/meditating, dreams, psychedelics, sensory deprivation, etc. and religious traditions have incorporated all of these things. One half-baked idea I've had is that maybe our mortal bodies just aren't normally able to comprehend the spiritual truths around us unless we get into the right state of mind. To get into a mindset where you are able to feel your connection to God or to the rest of the world, I suppose.

That being said, I don't think that I'd ever personally take psychedelics because I've heard stories about bad trips that sound pretty horrifying. Mostly I just don't see any reason to look for spiritual experiences that way since I have found other ways to find my connection to God that won't mess with the chemical balance in my brain. I admit I don't know very much about psychedelics, but I don't think I'd ever partake. I'd be interested in the results of the study.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

1. I would not participate. 2. I think there might be a valid way to test the physical manifestations of what one self-identifies as a spiritual experience. 3. I think practices such as prayer, reading scripture, etc. can be tested and replicated, but there is no guarantee the Spirit is the catalyst of the physical manifestations that are measured. 4. I would subject my practices to testing but would not presume that the Spirit would be present, especially since I would only do it if I got paid enough LOL

Indeed! It would have to be assumed that the Spirit can be commanded to appear like some sort of movie seance.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Honorentheos said:

3. As a former believer who had what I then believed to be sincere and powerful experiences I would probably have been ambivalent about this. What I then described as spiritual experience covered a spectrum of inner events that ranged from the slight dopamine eupohoria that comes with discovery or confirmation. It also included a very transcendent experience involving music and a group singing where there was a real feeling of the boundaries between individual, other, and god falling away like the veil being parted. I don't think that "replication at will" would be assumed by anyone who is serious about the subject. Context seems to matter and as a wise man once said, you never step twice into the same river.

I think all experiences are spiritual because "Man is spirit." The intersection of our experience and our will, or what we do with it, reflects the meaning we attach to these experiences. The natural man can discover many things and unleash the innate potential of his mind (see Bobbies example, where a truth that had been buried in a man's psyche was brought to the fore with the effects of LSD): it depends on what he is born with and what gets put in there one way or the other. Only God can unleash the godly potential with the effects of the Spirit after one applies his "natural" spiritual experiences in the right direction, as the man in Bobbie's example did. Hopefully he is talking the effects of LDS in the right direction!

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Interesting topic and one that came up briefly in the Nietzsche thread. I'm glad to see some people responding who have some experience with psychedelics. It definitely is a class of drugs that can be quite different from all the others and there are a lot of myths and misunderstandings surrounding them.

I have used a variety of psychedelics in a variety of situations. There have been purely recreational times just hanging out with friends, quasi-ritualistic times (Grateful Dead shows), intense individual spiritual experiments (months of using mushrooms multiple times a week to explore consciousness and spirituality), and religious ritual (peyote ceremonies with the Native American Church).

It is interesting that most religions prescribe some sort of activity aimed to change consciousness, such as fasting, meditation, ascetic practices, etc. Think about the whirling dervishes in Sufism.

Timothy Leary was trying very hard to make spiritual experience able to be studied in some sort of scientific way via psychedelics. If you actually read him and ignore the public straw man (which he enjoyed playing into, honestly) you'll find he's got some interesting ideas. He tried running a variety of experiments similar to what is in the OP, such as the very famous Marsh Chapel Experiment:

Here's the conclusion:

From my own experiences, I cannot deny that I had experiences that I would call spiritual while using psychedelics, especially when the entire intention was spiritually focused, such as in the Native American Church. I don't have any simple explanations or conclusions from this. There is obviously some relation between brain chemistry and spiritual experience, as Gray points out, since there is a relation between brain chemistry and any/all experience. Perhaps psychedelics/entheogens can create a situation where spiritual experience is possible, but not necessary, just like other religious practices that aim to change consciousness (the fasting, meditation, etc, that I mentioned earlier).

The problem with trying to study spiritual experience scientifically, is that science tends to focus on the physically objective aspects, such as brain waves, blood chemistry, etc. That misses the whole experience, since it is a subjective experience in your mind. Timothy Leary's analogy was to imagine scientists studying you while you make love to your wife, and telling you that your experience was just dopamine, endorphins, and hormones, when of course that was not the experience you had.

I don't think I would use psychedelics again, but not because I think they aren't useful on a spiritual quest. I think they helped me find my way, but now that I am on my way they are no longer necessary. They were like a boat I used to cross a river. It would be kinda silly to sit down in the boat on dry land now.

Interesting thoughts. Are you Native American?

Let's suppose one has a question of a religious nature. For example, "Which church should I join?" After lengthy study of various religions and philosophies, pondering the information, and one partaking a psychedelic substance, from your experiences, would you expect to receive a useful answer? If so, what was the source? If not, why not?

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Gray said:

Well it's too late now. The experience is long gone. There's no way to measure what happened to you. But given the right conditions and information,  it should be possible to replicate any spiritual/emotional experience.

Well, I would think you can't have it both ways. Either what we experienced is replicable or it is not. Please give me an idea of what those conditions and information would be in order for us or anyone else to repeat the experience. 

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

In my experience, the chemically induced experiences generally were much more intense and blatant. It was not a "still small voice" but definitely tornadoes and earthquakes and fires. The thoughts, feelings, and insights were in the same category, though.

So, could we say that using certain chemicals always results in a profound experience, but what Mormons and perhaps others call the still small voice is less predictable? What useful things were learned from those catastrophic experiences?