Five Solas Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/06/14/532998287/southern-baptist-convention-votes-to-condemn-white-supremacy Should the LDS Church be equally pubic & clear about the "Alt-Right" movement and its connection with "white nationalism?" Or would a similar undertaking not be useful/necessary? --Erik 2
Popular Post Storm Rider Posted June 15, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 15, 2017 Hello Five, for me this is confusing due to the fact that I don't even know what the alt-right is or how is it defined with any degree of uniformity and self-acceptance by the "alt-right" itself. Assuming that the label has no real meaning - except it represents the boogieman du jour, if someone wants to decree it as being evil....does it mean anything? The alt-right has become a catch-all label. In such circumstances I don't know its value. 7
Popular Post mfbukowski Posted June 15, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Five Solas said: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/06/14/532998287/southern-baptist-convention-votes-to-condemn-white-supremacy Should the LDS Church be equally pubic & clear about the "Alt-Right" movement and its connection with "white nationalism?" Or would a similar undertaking not be useful/necessary? --Erik Give me a break Who would not condemn White Supremacy? This is news? I need a headline someone! "Bukowski Repudiates White Supremacy" Did anyone think that Southern Baptists were in favor of White Supremacy? Edited June 15, 2017 by mfbukowski 8
MiserereNobis Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: "Bukowski Repudiates Racism" Only in your mind, brother, only in your mind.
mfbukowski Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Give me a break Who would not condemn White Supremacy? This is news? I need a headline someone! "Bukowski Repudiates White Supremacy" Did anyone think that Southern Baptists were in favor of White Supremacy? Oh I get it. They have a history of White Supremacy and some disagree with the statement? Duh- that has no semblance to Mormonism If we repudiated White Supremacy- which of course would be un necessary and weird- you think any LDS would disagree? Very different case. There is nothing here to even discuss. Move along, nothing here to see! 1
mfbukowski Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 8 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Only in your mind, brother, only in your mind. I beefed it up a bit- it says "White Supremacy" Do I get my headline now??
MiserereNobis Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I beefed it up a bit- it says "White Supremacy" Do I get my headline now?? Yep. With that, you've officially transcended the boundaries of Cartesian Dualism and brought objects, perception, truth, and TRVTH into harmony. Well done, lad Edited June 15, 2017 by MiserereNobis
mfbukowski Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 13 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Yep. With that, you've officially transcended the boundaries of Cartesian Dualism and brought objects, perception, truth, and TRVTH into harmony. Well done, lad Aw, shucks.
The Nehor Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 7 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Hello Five, for me this is confusing due to the fact that I don't even know what the alt-right is or how is it defined with any degree of uniformity and self-acceptance by the "alt-right" itself. Assuming that the label has no real meaning - except it represents the boogieman du jour, if someone wants to decree it as being evil....does it mean anything? The alt-right has become a catch-all label. In such circumstances I don't know its value. White nationalists/supremacists claim the label. I dislike it. I think it would be better to call them white nationalists or tribalist pond scum or inbred morons but if we have a term everyone seems to agree on why not use it? 2
USU78 Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 Will they be decrying ultra orthodox Calvinists next? 1
stemelbow Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 9 hours ago, Five Solas said: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/06/14/532998287/southern-baptist-convention-votes-to-condemn-white-supremacy Should the LDS Church be equally pubic & clear about the "Alt-Right" movement and its connection with "white nationalism?" Or would a similar undertaking not be useful/necessary? --Erik I'm with Jana Reiss on the LDS Church and this topic: http://religionnews.com/2017/05/30/the-new-face-of-mormon-racism/ Quote I call upon our church to speak out against this kind of injustice — or at least to speak louder. Those words are there from Jeffrey R. Holland, Gordon B. Hinckley, and many others. But the church has also never fully repudiated racist statements from earlier leaders like Bruce R. McConkie, Mark E. Peterson, and Brigham Young. Until and unless it does, it allows the ugliness of racism to fester and grow.
clarkgoble Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 9 hours ago, Storm Rider said: The alt-right has become a catch-all label. In such circumstances I don't know its value. This is the big problem. A lot of people who are sympathetic to the alt-right understand it to mean something completely different from what many of us who are critical of the alt-right understand it. 2
clarkgoble Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I'm with Jana Reiss on the LDS Church and this topic: http://religionnews.com/2017/05/30/the-new-face-of-mormon-racism/ I'd disagree with her there. Heck, Bruce R. McConkie forcefully repudiated his own statements. A BYU professor lost his job for even barely embracing some of the old theories of McConkie ten years ago. That's not to deny there aren't places we need to deal with. The old issue of patriarchal blessings that's been discussed at BCC and Juvenile Instructor is one example. Edited June 15, 2017 by clarkgoble 2
pogi Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 8 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I'm with Jana Reiss on the LDS Church and this topic: http://religionnews.com/2017/05/30/the-new-face-of-mormon-racism/ Are you accusing McConkie, etc. of being "white nationalists" a part of the "alt right movement"? 1
Popular Post The Nehor Posted June 15, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 15, 2017 31 minutes ago, USU78 said: Will they be decrying ultra orthodox Calvinists next? If they do it was meant to be. 6
Storm Rider Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: White nationalists/supremacists claim the label. I dislike it. I think it would be better to call them white nationalists or tribalist pond scum or inbred morons but if we have a term everyone seems to agree on why not use it? Although I have read about the alt-right and why some hate "these people" and I have read much less about what the alt-right thinks of themselves, it remains more a lightening rod for Trump haters than anything else. If someone feels the need to be a white nationalist then I have no problem with their choice just as I don't have a problem with those who want to belong to the BLM movement. Some people easily join political groups and movements. I tend to shy away from all of them - even the more traditional groups. But I dislike when people take a group and run it into the ground for being the new boogieman under bed.
stemelbow Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 5 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: I'd disagree with her there. Heck, Bruce R. McConkie forcefully repudiated his own statements. Elder McConkie's words, no doubt, in this BYU speech, are the best example we have of past proclaimed doctrine and revelation as being wrong. I wish his words in repudiating the teaching was disseminated widely as soon as ti was given. But that we have it now is great. 5 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: A BYU professor lost his job for even barely embracing some of the old theories of McConkie ten years ago. It would have been nice, for instance, if McConkie's words of repudiation was known by this professor, or if known accepted as the official view of the Church. It seems like he either was unaware of the speech, or unaware that it was the Church's official position, 'cause ultimately he was left with the impression that the past revelation and doctrine was from God and, fi he know about it, McConkie's more recent repudiation was not revelation or doctrine at all. 5 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: That's not to deny there aren't places we need to deal with. The old issue of patriarchal blessings that's been discussed at BCC and Juvenile Instructor is one example. Sure.
The Nehor Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Although I have read about the alt-right and why some hate "these people" and I have read much less about what the alt-right thinks of themselves, it remains more a lightening rod for Trump haters than anything else. If someone feels the need to be a white nationalist then I have no problem with their choice just as I don't have a problem with those who want to belong to the BLM movement. Some people easily join political groups and movements. I tend to shy away from all of them - even the more traditional groups. But I dislike when people take a group and run it into the ground for being the new boogieman under bed. You are okay with white nationalists? That is disturbing. 1
stemelbow Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 18 minutes ago, pogi said: Are you accusing McConkie, etc. of being "white nationalists" a part of the "alt right movement"? Where do you get that idea? That's a far cry from anything I've said. I don't even think Jana Reiss said anything near it. How could McConkie be? he has long passed from this earth. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 9 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Oh I get it. They have a history of White Supremacy and some disagree with the statement? Duh- that has no semblance to Mormonism If we repudiated White Supremacy- which of course would be un necessary and weird- you think any LDS would disagree? Very different case. There is nothing here to even discuss. Move along, nothing here to see! That's kind of the point. There are some who disagree and cite LDS Canon to support their claims, so a statement from the top could help put that issue to rest. The Mormon Mommy Blog / Alt-right blogger. http://www.sltrib.com/home/5116879-155/mormon-blogger-trumpets-alt-right-racial-views So in an organization with a racially charged past, and scriptures that are used to support that racism, it would seem to be wise to speak out on the issue and not let it fester, IMO. 2
clarkgoble Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 8 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Elder McConkie's words, no doubt, in this BYU speech, are the best example we have of past proclaimed doctrine and revelation as being wrong. I wish his words in repudiating the teaching was disseminated widely as soon as it was given. But that we have it now is great. It was widely discussed throughout the 80's and definitely when I was at BYU in the early 90's. I recall them as part of the lesson on OD2 but old manuals aren't available to double check. I was surprised that there was no lesson on OD2 are part of the Kimball lesson in PH/RS though. 1
stemelbow Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: It was widely discussed throughout the 80's and definitely when I was at BYU in the early 90's. I recall them as part of the lesson on OD2 but old manuals aren't available to double check. I was surprised that there was no lesson on OD2 are part of the Kimball lesson in PH/RS though. Luckily we have the essay Race and the Priesthood, published by the church and said to be acceptable material to assist lessons. It opens up for us more opportunities for thoughtful discussion--opportunities I fear were once lacking. It was near 2002 (opympics in Utah helps me gauge the time table) I was either an instructor or a counselor in EQ. I had brought up, in a lesson, that which to me amounted to what was, 10 or so years after this lesson, that which was found in the Race in the Priesthood essay. Nothing more...nothing more controversial as I recall. But man, it really upset a host of the members. Luckily my bishop, when confronted with the many complaints, as he put it, laughed them off. He wasn't exactly happy I addressed it, told me I need to stick to the manual going forward, but also didn't see much to be concerned about. Anyway, fast forward over ten years, it was close to the very week the same essay came out (so I believe late 2013) I was teaching in EQ again,and brought up the essay. No one new about it, but it provided a great vehicle for discussion. Again, many complained I did so, and again the Bishop at least told me he was ok with it (but then went on to instruct, as I understand it, his counselors and stake leaders to sit in on each of my lesson's thereafter--of course I'm not sure this particular lesson sparked his move, because there were other things I guess I said in subsequent lessons that people complained about). Anyway thanks. Brought some memories. Edited June 15, 2017 by stemelbow 1
clarkgoble Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 27 minutes ago, stemelbow said: It would have been nice, for instance, if McConkie's words of repudiation was known by this professor, or if known accepted as the official view of the Church. It seems like he either was unaware of the speech, or unaware that it was the Church's official position, 'cause ultimately he was left with the impression that the past revelation and doctrine was from God and, fi he know about it, McConkie's more recent repudiation was not revelation or doctrine at all. It seems pretty hard to believe he wasn't, although I can't speak for him.
mnn727 Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 9 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Did anyone think that Southern Baptists were in favor of White Supremacy? They were, in the past, some of the main founders of the KKK
clarkgoble Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 4 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Luckily we have the essay Race and the Priesthood, published by the church and said to be acceptable material to assist lessons. It opens up for us more opportunities for thoughtful discussion--opportunities I fear were once lacking. It was near 2002 (opympics in Utah helps me gauge the time table) I was either an instructor or a counselor in EQ. I had brought up, in a lesson, that which to me amounted to what was, 10 or so years after this lesson, that which was found in the Race in the Priesthood essay. Nothing more...nothing more controversial as I recall. But man, it really upset a host of the members. As I've often said it's amazing how ignorant most members are of their own faith. And of course people then blame it on the Church not teaching them. That said, I do wish McConkies' quote was in the header for OD2. 2
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