Entrance Into The Kingdom

[Vanguard]

Greetings, all. I OP’d on a Christian apologetics site several years ago regards to what other Christians believed should be the ultimate determinant that would grant someone the fullness of our God’s glory (however they imagine that to be) in the next life. I was rereading some of my older posts recently and decided I’d like to broach the topic again for this site. As an active Mormon myself I know the LDS community has it’s own beliefs as to the steps that are necessary.

Questions:

1. How would you explain to another what the most important consideration is for "gaining entrance”?

2. Is there more than one consideration?

3. And if so, are you able to prioritize them?

I have many of my own ideas - some of which are a bit unorthodox - that I will also share provided the thread gets any legs...  

[Calm]

Gaining entrance to what specifically...the Spirit, presence of the Lord, presence of God, Heaven, eternal life?

I am assuming the full glory, but since the phrase sounds awkward to me, just want to be sure.

[Vanguard]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

Gaining entrance to what specifically...the Spirit, presence of the Lord, presence of God, Heaven, eternal life?

I am assuming the full glory, but since the phrase sounds awkward to me, just want to be sure.

Yes, the "full glory" or whatever you consider to be the pinnacle.

[JAHS]

The most important is to become perfected through Jesus Christ and His gospel.

Faith
Repentance
Baptism by one having authority
Gift of the Holy Ghost
Living the commandments
Priesthood
Temple ordinances
Participation in Church
Living a Christ like life
Loving and serving others
Becoming a perfected person through the gospel
 

[Darren10]

Here's an excellent rubric:

Quote

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mathew 22

Within this constitution, one should follow what JASH stated.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Greetings, all. I OP’d on a Christian apologetics site several years ago regards to what other Christians believed should be the ultimate determinant that would grant someone the fullness of our God’s glory (however they imagine that to be) in the next life. I was rereading some of my older posts recently and decided I’d like to broach the topic again for this site. As an active Mormon myself I know the LDS community has it’s own beliefs as to the steps that are necessary.

Questions:

1. How would you explain to another what the most important consideration is for "gaining entrance”?

2. Is there more than one consideration?

3. And if so, are you able to prioritize them?

I have many of my own ideas - some of which are a bit unorthodox - that I will also share provided the thread gets any legs...  

 

1. How would you explain to another what the most important consideration is for "gaining entrance”?
Gaining entrance to God's kingdom requires acceptance of Christ and the covenant, and signifying that through an authorized baptismal ordinance.
All other considerations are concern our position and purpose in that kingdom.
But if you are talking of the FULLNESS of God's glory, that would require obedience to the same laws and ordinances as God himself.  And that is a fairly long list.

2. Is there more than one consideration?
Not for entrance.  Just the covenant to follow Christ, allow him to pay for our sins, and be baptized.
For Godhood (fullness of God's glory) there are many considerations.  All the laws and ordinances described in holy writ being the most obvious.

3. And if so, are you able to prioritize them?
They are not an issue of prioritizing.  Joseph made it clear.

• The question is frequently asked "Can we not be saved without going through with all those ordinances, etc.?" I would answer, No, not the fullness of salvation. Jesus said, "There are many mansions in my Father's house, and I will go and prepare a place for you." [see John 14:1–2] House here named should have been translated kingdom; and any person who is exalted to the highest mansion has to abide a celestial law, and the whole law too.

  History of the Church, 6:184.

[pogi]

The grace of Christ, above all else, is required.  Without that, there aint nothin' we can do.

 After that, we have to love God and love our neighbors as ourselves (including all that entails...). 

That pretty much sums it up for me.  

 

[Vanguard]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

 

1. How would you explain to another what the most important consideration is for "gaining entrance”?
Gaining entrance to God's kingdom requires acceptance of Christ and the covenant, and signifying that through an authorized baptismal ordinance.
All other considerations are concern our position and purpose in that kingdom.
But if you are talking of the FULLNESS of God's glory, that would require obedience to the same laws and ordinances as God himself.  And that is a fairly long list.

2. Is there more than one consideration?
Not for entrance.  Just the covenant to follow Christ, allow him to pay for our sins, and be baptized.
For Godhood (fullness of God's glory) there are many considerations.  All the laws and ordinances described in holy writ being the most obvious.

3. And if so, are you able to prioritize them?
They are not an issue of prioritizing.  Joseph made it clear.

• The question is frequently asked "Can we not be saved without going through with all those ordinances, etc.?" I would answer, No, not the fullness of salvation. Jesus said, "There are many mansions in my Father's house, and I will go and prepare a place for you." [see John 14:1–2] House here named should have been translated kingdom; and any person who is exalted to the highest mansion has to abide a celestial law, and the whole law too.

  History of the Church, 6:184.

1. Could you elaborate more on what you mean by needing to obey "the same laws and ordinances as God himself"? Are you suggesting this is possible in this life and that if it were not accomplished the individual would therefore lose the highest reward?

2. At great risk of sounding facetious, how is being baptized a requirement when we know there are so many who have not been? Won't everyone be baptized at some point? And if everyone eventually is, doesn't the idea of it being a "requirement" lose meaning? And wouldn't this be true of the other ordinances also? - These questions strike very close to the exchange I would like to pursue.

[Vanguard]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

The grace of Christ, above all else, is required.  Without that, there aint nothin' we can do.

 After that, we have to love God and love our neighbors as ourselves (including all that entails...). 

That pretty much sums it up for me.  

 

Absolutely. Could you comment more on what you think when you say "including all that entails...". What about the ordinances?

[pogi]

50 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Absolutely. Could you comment more on what you think when you say "including all that entails...". What about the ordinances?

Ultimately, we are going to be judged by the light we have been given.  For some, that is going to mean receiving all the ordinances and keeping all covenants made; for others that is going to mean being the best Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or even atheist that their conscience knows how to be.  I personally believe that light will eventually lead all humble and obedient souls to the same saving grace via covenant and ordinance in this life or the next.

In other words, to love God means to heed that internal light and treat others kindly. And for those to whom it has been revealed, it means to keep His commandments as best they understand.

Edited May 27, 2017 by pogi

[Vanguard]

14 minutes ago, pogi said:

Ultimately, we are going to be judged by the light we have been given.  For some, that is going to mean receiving all the ordinances and keeping all covenants made; for others that is going to mean being the best Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or even atheist that their conscience knows how to be.  I personally believe that light will eventually lead all humble and obedient souls to the same saving grace via covenant and ordinance in this life or the next.

That is very nicely said. : ) But how are we to know how much "light" another has been given? Isn't there any type of behavior or lack of behavior that would clue us in to another's light?

[JAHS]

19 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

That is very nicely said. : ) But how are we to know how much "light" another has been given? Isn't there any type of behavior or lack of behavior that would clue us in to another's light?

Why would you need to know that? 

[Vanguard]

35 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Why would you need to know that? 

Correct. Why would we though your post earlier listed "Participation in Church" as one of the important considerations for receiving the "full glory"? That's a behavior that is pretty easily tracked by others. How is participation in church - or lack thereof - a marker?

[aprorianalysis]

The topic of salvation is old stuff, are we all allot like those followers of Christ, arguing about how or when we were saved.  Christ like individuals should take there salvation for granted. Be grateful.  It is not all about thou should not or so called who is saved and how do you know?  its about your individual faith and have it unto yourself.  It is a individual thing, and move up from that fact.  Boy, its self evident that there is a plan or a purpose, let this plan be for god, and gain some real spiritual or wisdom experiences. Dealing with the harmony of or the perfecting of our talents and traits that can be called honest, sincere, loyal, trustworthy, just, long suffering. these at just some of the many.  we are so childish in our so called mere beliefs, lets have a big picture response.  anyone ?

[Meerkat]

3 hours ago, JAHS said:

Why would you need to know that? 

This is what I think:  James said "Show me your faith without your works.  I will show you my faith by my works."  I believe we will be judged according to the behavior we have embraced more than by what we believe in this life.  Other things, like faith in Jesus Christ, His Atonement and the sacred ordinances we all need will ultimatey be resolved before crossing the threshold into a Celestial reward.  Christ said "If ye love me, keep my commandments."  His Commandments are encompassed in the two great ones, Love God with all thy heart, mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.  If I recall correctly, CS Lewis once said, in effect, if we are an atheist, or any non Christian or Jewish but we love our neighbor as ourself, we are worshipping God unawares.

My Dad did not believe he had a personal knowledge of, or relationship with Jesus Christ.  He would say, "Lord, I believe. Help thou mine unbelief."  He did not profess Christ, anymore than he professed any other religious figure..  But he went about doing good. He had supreme integrity.  If there was anything virtuous, lovely, of good report or praiseworthy, Dad sought after those things. And he loved people with a kind and charitable love.  If Dad is not there, I will not be there because I will have fallen short.  I would say understanding and embracing the Atonement is crucial at some pointment in our progress.  But we must remember that the point of the Atonement is to effect a change in our behavior.  Our behavior, whether we have done good or bad, is what we will be judged by.  In all societies, including non Christian and Christian alike,  we have equal opportunity to treat one another with kindnes, honesty, integrity and respect.

My wonderful Baptist Neighbor (and they truly are wonderful!) judged that Dad was going to hell and would burn forever because he did not know Jesus Christ.  If Dad does not make it ahead of me into the Celestial Kingdom, then I misunderstand the character of the God I worship.  Good people will want to associate with good people over yonder.  Bad people with  bad. Christ is looking for the good everywhere, in my opinion.  He is the Lord of the Harvest.  But for us,  we must be careful to do good works.

MEERKAT

 

 

 

 

[JAHS]

9 hours ago, Vanguard said:

10 hours ago, JAHS said:

Why would you need to know that? 

Correct. Why would we though your post earlier listed "Participation in Church" as one of the important considerations for receiving the "full glory"? That's a behavior that is pretty easily tracked by others. How is participation in church - or lack thereof - a marker?

I asked why would you need to know that because it seems to me that we should worry more about our own light rather than how much light someone else has. Participation in God's kingdom on earth is a good indication to ourselves as to how well we are doing in striving for perfection and the full glory. 

[probablyHagoth7]

20 hours ago, Vanguard said:

1. How would you explain to another what the most important consideration is for "gaining entrance”?

Clean hands,

pure heart,

lack of vanity,

honesty.

[Tacenda]

Love your neighbor was second to loving God. 

 

Edited May 27, 2017 by Tacenda

[probablyHagoth7]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Love your neighbor was second to loving God. 

...I no longer go by the adage that most LDS are good at this anymore...

You are loved, T.

Please don't doubt that. Some like me just aren't good enough yet at showing it in a way that means  something. Please be patient

[Tacenda]

10 minutes ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

You are loved, T.

Please don't doubt that. Some like me just aren't good enough yet at showing it in a way that means  something. Please be patient

Thanks, I deleted because it came across exactly how I was feeling, but changed my mind about posting it. You apparently saw the whole thing and I'm glad you are the one that did, what a kind response!

Edited May 27, 2017 by Tacenda

[mfbukowski]

21 hours ago, Vanguard said:

1. Could you elaborate more on what you mean by needing to obey "the same laws and ordinances as God himself"? Are you suggesting this is possible in this life and that if it were not accomplished the individual would therefore lose the highest reward?

2. At great risk of sounding facetious, how is being baptized a requirement when we know there are so many who have not been? Won't everyone be baptized at some point? And if everyone eventually is, doesn't the idea of it being a "requirement" lose meaning? And wouldn't this be true of the other ordinances also? - These questions strike very close to the exchange I would like to pursue.

This really strains your credibility to pass yourself off as an "active Mormon" plus your use of the word "you" referring to Mormons instead of "we".

Seems pretty trollish to me.

If you don't know about temple ordinances and what they are for- and could not answer that question easily from someone else, there is no way you could be an "Active Mormon".

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

This really strains your credibility to pass yourself off as an "active Mormon" plus your use of the word "you" referring to Mormons instead of "we".

Seems pretty trollish to me.

If you don't know about temple ordinances and what they are for- and could not answer that question easily from someone else, there is no way you could be an "Active Mormon".

Vanguard has been around a long time though not posting much.  I lean towards poor phrasing rather than long con.  For example see:

 

[mfbukowski]

16 hours ago, aprorianalysis said:

The topic of salvation is old stuff, are we all allot like those followers of Christ, arguing about how or when we were saved.  Christ like individuals should take there salvation for granted. Be grateful.  It is not all about thou should not or so called who is saved and how do you know?  its about your individual faith and have it unto yourself.  It is a individual thing, and move up from that fact.  Boy, its self evident that there is a plan or a purpose, let this plan be for god, and gain some real spiritual or wisdom experiences. Dealing with the harmony of or the perfecting of our talents and traits that can be called honest, sincere, loyal, trustworthy, just, long suffering. these at just some of the many.  we are so childish in our so called mere beliefs, lets have a big picture response.  anyone ?

Of course the question becomes what one means by "salvation".

Most Christians I have asked the question contrasting say, a dictator who killed millions but had a deathbed repentance with a life-long "saintly" grandmother who was "saved" early in life and then lived a life of exemplary service to others- if those two individuals should have the same reward, will say "yes they are both saved- but one will have a greater crown of glory"

So what is the difference between having a greater reward for exemplary lives with the notion of three kingdoms of glory?

Why do you think Christians will agree with one view and condemn the other?

[mfbukowski]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Vanguard has been around a long time though not posting much.  I lean towards poor phrasing rather than long con.  For example see:

 

OK apologies all around then

Not sure what the objective is then.

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Of course the question becomes what one means by "salvation".

Most Christians I have asked the question contrasting say, a dictator who killed millions but had a deathbed repentance with a life-long "saintly" grandmother who was "saved" early in life and then lived a life of exemplary service to others- if those two individuals should have the same reward, will say "yes they are both saved- but one will have a greater crown of glory"

So what is the difference between having a greater reward for exemplary lives with the notion of three kingdoms of glory?

Why do you think Christians will agree with one view and condemn the other?

I appreciate and accept your earlier apology. : ) I am trying to flesh something out that is not typically discussed and am finding it a bit of a struggle to put the right words to it (see Calm's most recent response) just yet. I am hopeful others do not get lost in the "poor phrasing" at the expense of missing what may become in its own time the much bigger point. I'm also trying to approach the topic sensitively without drawing the ire of other posters (see your initial reaction). Your commentary, however, does strike very close to the heart of the matter. Regards to your comparison between this hypothetical dictator and the grandmother, could you speak more on what metric you are using to strike this contrast? Indeed and at least for one poster, it does sound like there is a behavioral metric for this life that can be used when speculating on the ultimate destination of others after this life. You'll notice earlier in the thread some including myself opined this is not our role nor are we capable of doing it anyway. From your example do you appear to feel differently?