Entrance Into The Kingdom

[aprorianalysis]

To love and learn what love is one must experience this, for one self.

to find and honor real truth one must experiences and know how to fish for themselves.

Against all odds the faith of the man that trust god will be tested in all things.

More on my philosophy of living and my rethinking of my thoughts go to www.upism.org

[aprorianalysis]

HI, My comments about salvation, is in its exemplary sense given to all, since Pentacost.  No doubt a lot will disagree, that is ok, but super consciously  we are all believers.  At least from a philosophical point of view, as notably Vanguard states that study of knowing something is a good as it gets in this life without crossing our lines into dogma, what is salvation, and how is it that we are saved.  My own opinion is that we should talk more about the keys to the kingdom as a serviceable logical point of view, and use reason and faith to boot.  After all what does god demand of us, how is god related to time, and does god actually have an ability to love us like the only creature in the universe of universe, I don't think I am personally very talented but it seems that I am going to be a perfecting individual I need to gather together more unity stuff, and have a big picture outlook.  Especially by the logical  father who is in heave wants to share the inner life with me, the first cause and center of the universe to be my friend and share that makes me fill that he is and does work logical in a combined nature that I can call my  experience.  The assumption is that appears are not reality, and that we are mostly projecting an inner reality out there through are senses.  How can we not know things or objects it is only by sensations and this is not a direct connection either.

Spirit substance must not be material stuff, and the other mindness is above that so it must coordinate the stuff below, our lowly state as morals of the realm.

 

 

 

[mfbukowski]

On 5/30/2017 at 11:07 AM, Calm said:

"That way the person will also be notified that they have received a response and be more likely to respond to you"

Only if they ask for this in their options or follow or something.  Not sure how it's done as I don't do it.  I trust the new post function to keep track of what I have and haven't read in a thread, most of the time it works.  Sometimes it skips and I don't catch it till much later.

I pretty much just respond to notifications.  I have noticed sometimes you respond to me but because you didn't quote me, I didn't know who the response was addressed to, or did not even see it.

I just skim the threads for things I want to comment on and skip most topics anyway.  

[mfbukowski]

On 5/30/2017 at 11:53 AM, probablyHagoth7 said:

Profile / Account Settings / Other Settings / Notification Settings

For my needs, the only option I needed to select was :"A notification when new content is posted."

Yeah but then you actually have to read the thread.  Like every post.   Grrrr.

 

[Abulafia]

"So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

 

There's enough there to keep someone busy for a lifetime.

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I pretty much just respond to notifications.  I have noticed sometimes you respond to me but because you didn't quote me, I didn't know who the response was addressed to, or did not even see it.

I just skim the threads for things I want to comment on and skip most topics anyway.  

Good to know.  Another reason to try and remember to quote people using the quote function and only if I am responding to them  and not speaking to the topic as a whole.

[Vanguard]

I sat in on the yesterday's GD discussion around the three degrees of glory. It reminded me of my questions that prompted opening this thread. IMO, reading the scriptural references (or anything from GC addresses) that attempt to describe profiles destined for each glory are not particularly helpful. The characteristics are a combination of "easy-to-see" behaviors (i.e., murderers, liars) and more private / internal states (those not faithful to the covenants they have made, not able to retain Christ in the forefront of their lives ). Of course, it elicited a comment by an elderly sister when she said words to this effect - "But how can we identify who these people are?"). The question reminded me of a comment a young mother had made several years ago to the YW in another ward when she stated words to this effect - "My former brother-in-law who up and left my sister with three young kids will most surely be sent to Outer Darkness of that I am sure". These types of comments and questions of which I am certain we have all heard reveal a significant misunderstanding about what is expected of us in this mortality. Again, and to push the point a bit, what do we say about a brother (this is a made-up hypothetical) who has been through the temple and has held multiple leadership calling when it comes out that he has been embezzling tithing monies for multiple years to spend on gambling and alcohol? He is unrepentant and now no longer attends church. Is there a commentary to be had about his eternal reward? Has he mortgaged this reward should he remain unrepentant? Or do we have nothing to say?       

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I sat in on the yesterday's GD discussion around the three degrees of glory. It reminded me of my questions that prompted opening this thread. IMO, reading the scriptural references (or anything from GC addresses) that attempt to describe profiles destined for each glory are not particularly helpful. The characteristics are a combination of "easy-to-see" behaviors (i.e., murderers, liars) and more private / internal states (those not faithful to the covenants they have made, not able to retain Christ in the forefront of their lives ). Of course, it elicited a comment by an elderly sister when she said words to this effect - "But how can we identify who these people are?"). The question reminded me of a comment a young mother had made several years ago to the YW in another ward when she stated words to this effect - "My former brother-in-law who up and left my sister with three young kids will most surely be sent to Outer Darkness of that I am sure". These types of comments and questions of which I am certain we have all heard reveal a significant misunderstanding about what is expected of us in this mortality. Again, and to push the point a bit, what do we say about a brother (this is a made-up hypothetical) who has been through the temple and has held multiple leadership calling when it comes out that he has been embezzling tithing monies for multiple years to spend on gambling and alcohol? He is unrepentant and now no longer attends church. Is there a commentary to be had about his eternal reward? Has he mortgaged this reward should he remain unrepentant? Or do we have nothing to say?      

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that we really need to rethink how we view the three degrees of glory.

They absolutely exist, but our rather juvenile idea that "when we die we are put in the one based on how good we are forever and ever never to leave" is too simplistic for words.
It is no more nuanced than the binary heaven/hell belief that we as Mormons occasionally joke about.

I am not disagreeing with the doctrine, but I really think we need to rethink.

[theplains]

On 2017-5-26 at 1:51 PM, JAHS said:

The most important is to become perfected through Jesus Christ and His gospel.

Before you receive the endowment ceremony, you must be interviewed for a temple recommend.

You must obey these conditions to obtain a temple recommend:

(1)  Have faith and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and the
Holy Ghost. Have a firm testimony of the restored gospel.
(2) Sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the
Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. Recognize him as the only person on earth authorized to
exercise all priesthood keys.
(3)  Live the law of chastity.
(4)  Pay a full tithe.
(5)  Keep the Word of Wisdom. You cannot drink coffee, tea, or smoke.
(6)  Be honest in your dealings with others.
(7)  Strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and priesthood
meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel.

(Source: Gospel Principles, 1997, p. 245).

In addition to this, there are other things Latter-day Saints must do to have eternal
life. Some are duplicates of what has already been mentioned.

(1)  Love and worship God.
(2)  Love your neighbor.
(3)  Repent of your wrongdoings.
(4)  Live the law of chastity.
(5)  Pay honest tithes and offerings.
(6)  Be honest in your dealings with others and with the Lord.
(7)  Speak the truth always.
(8)  Obey the Word of Wisdom.
(9)  Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances.
(10)  Keep the Sabbath day holy.

To keep the Sabbath day holy, you should not shop, hunt, fish, attend sports events, or
participate in similar activities on that day. This would also include not watching entertainment
on television (Gospel Principles, p. 161).

(11) Attend your Church meetings as regularly as possible so you can renew your baptismal
covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
(12)  Love your family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
(13)  Have family and individual prayers every day.
(14)  Honor your parents.
(15)  Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
(16)  Study the scriptures.
(17)  Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

(Source: Gospel Principles, pp. 303-304).

Jim

[Vanguard]

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 3:08 PM, theplains said:

Before you receive the endowment ceremony, you must be interviewed for a temple recommend.

You must obey these conditions to obtain a temple recommend:

(1)  Have faith and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and the
Holy Ghost. Have a firm testimony of the restored gospel.
(2) Sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the
Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. Recognize him as the only person on earth authorized to
exercise all priesthood keys.
(3)  Live the law of chastity.
(4)  Pay a full tithe.
(5)  Keep the Word of Wisdom. You cannot drink coffee, tea, or smoke.
(6)  Be honest in your dealings with others.
(7)  Strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and priesthood
meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel.

(Source: Gospel Principles, 1997, p. 245).

In addition to this, there are other things Latter-day Saints must do to have eternal
life. Some are duplicates of what has already been mentioned.

(1)  Love and worship God.
(2)  Love your neighbor.
(3)  Repent of your wrongdoings.
(4)  Live the law of chastity.
(5)  Pay honest tithes and offerings.
(6)  Be honest in your dealings with others and with the Lord.
(7)  Speak the truth always.
(8)  Obey the Word of Wisdom.
(9)  Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances.
(10)  Keep the Sabbath day holy.

To keep the Sabbath day holy, you should not shop, hunt, fish, attend sports events, or
participate in similar activities on that day. This would also include not watching entertainment
on television (Gospel Principles, p. 161).

(11) Attend your Church meetings as regularly as possible so you can renew your baptismal
covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
(12)  Love your family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
(13)  Have family and individual prayers every day.
(14)  Honor your parents.
(15)  Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
(16)  Study the scriptures.
(17)  Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

(Source: Gospel Principles, pp. 303-304).

Jim

That's quite a list. Could you expand further on what happens when all of these commandments aren't followed and the person does not feel remorse in repentance for say, not always having paid his tithing?

[theplains]

On 2017-6-8 at 11:10 PM, Vanguard said:

That's quite a list. Could you expand further on what happens when all of these commandments aren't followed and the person does not feel remorse in repentance for say, not always having paid his tithing?

Failure means no exaltation.

Jim

[Meerkat]

On 5/26/2017 at 3:05 PM, pogi said:

The grace of Christ, above all else, is required.  Without that, there aint nothin' we can do.

 After that, we have to love God and love our neighbors as ourselves (including all that entails...). 

That pretty much sums it up for me.  

 

I agree.  I also believe this covers all other faiths including no faith at all.  If we love our neighbor as ourselves, we will keep the Commandments.  C.S. Lewis once stated, in effect, that many people, even athiests, are honest and treat their fellow beings with charity and love.  In so doing, they worship God unawares.  For those who haven't embraced the Gospel in this life, all other considerations (teachings, doctrines, ordinances) will be resolved in the Spirit World and the Temples per Doctrine and Covenants 138.  Our Gospel is a gospel of good works.  Even the Savior's Atonement was to enable us to be forgiven of our sins, and turn to a life of love and good works.  We will be judged by what we have done on this earth, probably what think too.  I believe part of integrity and obedience is to embrace the Commandments in our thoughts as well as our actions.  Show me your faith without your works.  I will show you my faith by my works.   If we have not heard, or found Christ here, God has made provision for embracing faith in Christ in the Spirit World,.  And He will cleanse our repentant hearts and minds and help us return to dwell with Him.  See 1 Peter 3:18-20 "18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."  And 1 Peter 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."  This is what I believe according to the character and mercy of the God I worship.  It is a comprehensive and magnificent plan.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Meerkat

[Vanguard]

On ‎6‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 1:25 PM, theplains said:

Failure means no exaltation.

Jim

But don't we always fail? I view all commandments as the ideal standard from which all of our "realities" fall short in one form or another. The commandment to repent has to be part of this also. There is an ideal and a reality that falls short. That being the case, we all will have something in our lives that we have not perfectly repented for. Do you literally mean exaltation will be denied these individuals?

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

But don't we always fail? I view all commandments as the ideal standard from which all of our "realities" fall short in one form or another. The commandment to repent has to be part of this also. There is an ideal and a reality that falls short. That being the case, we all will have something in our lives that we have not perfectly repented for. Do you literally mean exaltation will be denied these individuals?

theplains is not LDS, I believe he believes "exaltation" is a heresy.  He also iirc tends to misinterpret many of our teachings.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Calm

[Tacenda]

On 6/5/2017 at 0:45 PM, JLHPROF said:

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that we really need to rethink how we view the three degrees of glory.

They absolutely exist, but our rather juvenile idea that "when we die we are put in the one based on how good we are forever and ever never to leave" is too simplistic for words.
It is no more nuanced than the binary heaven/hell belief that we as Mormons occasionally joke about.

I am not disagreeing with the doctrine, but I really think we need to rethink.

I read about the celestial and terrestial meanings in the Bible because my husband taught the lesson in Primary last week. My husband still believes in the three degrees of glory.

I told him there isn't any word like telestial in the Bible and that I had read some critics say J.S. made the word up. This didn't phase my husband. Then I pointed out that terrestial means basically things on the earth or the earth, and that the celestial is heaven or the sun, moon and stars. And I had read in the past that the three degrees was plagiarized from Swedenborg. It wasn't my finest moment, because my husband may not believe everything, such as that polygamy etc., but the three degrees are still part of his belief. Luckily he puts up with me when I don't keep my big mouth shut.

But curious, what needs to be rethunk on the subject of the three degrees of heaven?

 

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Tacenda

[Calm]

It is not like the labels themselves have to be eternally significant.  It is what they are attached to that matters.

Does attaching the label of  "Calm's words" or "calmoriah's" or "rchivist's" alter the meaning of anything that I have said?  Or if in another forum there is a different poster named Calm, that means my choice of the word as my board name is wrong?

It may be confusing if we assume that Joseph was starting out from a commonly shared definition and was just adding new information or clarifying, but if he was adapting symbols (and words are just symbols) to his own usage, then it matters little imo that "terrestrial" is used elsewhere in a different fashion any more than the veil I wear in the Temple is signicantly different from other veils that have existed over time, such as the stylish netting that my grandmother used to pull down from her hat and over her face...and yet both are rightly called veils.  Each version serves a purpose, the label can as well as long as we don't assume it means something more than it does.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I read about the celestial and terrestial meanings in the Bible because my husband taught the lesson in Primary last week. My husband still believes in the three degrees of glory.

I told him there isn't any word like telestial in the Bible and that I had read some critics say J.S. made the word up. This didn't phase my husband. Then I pointed out that terrestial means basically things on the earth or the earth, and that the celestial is heaven or the sun, moon and stars. And I had read in the past that the three degrees was plagiarized from Swedenborg. It wasn't my finest moment, because my husband may not believe everything, such as that polygamy etc., but the three degrees are still part of his belief. Luckily he puts up with me when I don't keep my big mouth shut.

But curious, what needs to be rethunk on the subject of the three degrees of heaven?

 

 

What needs to be rethought?  The whole permanent situation of punishment or rewards based on whether we are good boys and girls.  That along with the limitation of future progression.
And additionally, I am not so convinced of a geographical divide being as literal as others think.  According to scripture this earth will become our Celestial Kingdom.  God dwells on a planet other than this one that is Celestial.  Yet the scriptures say we will dwell with God and Christ.  How does that work?  This earth will be Christ's Kingdom where he dwells while the father remains on his Celestialized earth?
And then where do the Terrestrial and Telestial people dwell?  In Mormonism kingdoms have physical space - do they get sent to a different world than we are familiar with?  (Maybe Venus and Neptune will finally serve some purpose).

There is much we don't know, but based on what we do know it is no better in my thinking to say there are three kingdoms with a razor thin dividing line than it is to say there  is a heaven and hell with a razor thin dividing line.

And as for the kingdoms in the Bible - yes, the word Telestial isn't there.
But the scripture clearly describes 3 divisions, not two.

• I Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
  41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
  42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Yes the word Telestial is missing, but the three degrees are clearly represented as being part of the resurrection.

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

What needs to be rethought?  The whole permanent situation of punishment or rewards based on whether we are good boys and girls.  That along with the limitation of future progression.
And additionally, I am not so convinced of a geographical divide being as literal as others think.  According to scripture this earth will become our Celestial Kingdom.  God dwells on a planet other than this one that is Celestial.  Yet the scriptures say we will dwell with God and Christ.  How does that work?  This earth will be Christ's Kingdom where he dwells while the father remains on his Celestialized earth?
And then where do the Terrestrial and Telestial people dwell?  In Mormonism kingdoms have physical space - do they get sent to a different world than we are familiar with?  (Maybe Venus and Neptune will finally serve some purpose).

There is much we don't know, but based on what we do know it is no better in my thinking to say there are three kingdoms with a razor thin dividing line than it is to say there  is a heaven and hell with a razor thin dividing line.

And as for the kingdoms in the Bible - yes, the word Telestial isn't there.
But the scripture clearly describes 3 divisions, not two.

• I Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
  41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
  42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Yes the word Telestial is missing, but the three degrees are clearly represented as being part of the resurrection.

My husband would agree with you. And we argued about it. What about what this article says Paul says about the degrees? http://www.equip.org/article/three-levels-of-heaven/  

c/p'd

"Smith assumed, incorrectly, that there had to be a direct correspondence between the sun/moon/stars analogy of verse41 and the “celestial/terrestrial” terms of verse40.This was prompted also by Smith’s interpretation of a later verse in Paul’s second letter to the Corinthians, even though it appeared in an entirely different context. When Paul sought to defend his apostleship against his critics in Corinth, he wrote, “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—…was caught up to the third heaven” (2Cor.12:2 NASB).

Here, the third heaven is the abode of God: the “first” heaven would be the atmosphere above us, where birds fly; the “second” heaven would be where the stars are located, that which we call “space” today. Paul is saying he was taken up to the very presence of God. The context here is completely different than the discussion of resurrection bodies in 1Corinthians15. This has no connection to the discussion of celestial and terrestrial glories in his previous letter to the Corinthians, but the connection Smith made between the two is what provided him with his “three levels of glory.”

Would Smith have been thrown as far off track had the King James used the more common words “heavenly” and “earthly” instead of “celestial” and “terrestrial”? We cannot know, but surely, it would have been less of a temptation for Smith to come up with a never-before-seen word like “telestial” had the King James consistently translated the underlying Greek terms."

[JLHPROF]

19 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My husband would agree with you. And we argued about it. What about what this article says Paul says about the degrees? http://www.equip.org/article/three-levels-of-heaven/ 

c/p'd

"Smith assumed, incorrectly, that there had to be a direct correspondence between the sun/moon/stars analogy of verse41 and the “celestial/terrestrial” terms of verse40.This was prompted also by Smith’s interpretation of a later verse in Paul’s second letter to the Corinthians, even though it appeared in an entirely different context. When Paul sought to defend his apostleship against his critics in Corinth, he wrote, “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—…was caught up to the third heaven” (2Cor.12:2 NASB).

Here, the third heaven is the abode of God: the “first” heaven would be the atmosphere above us, where birds fly; the “second” heaven would be where the stars are located, that which we call “space” today. Paul is saying he was taken up to the very presence of God. The context here is completely different than the discussion of resurrection bodies in 1Corinthians15. This has no connection to the discussion of celestial and terrestrial glories in his previous letter to the Corinthians, but the connection Smith made between the two is what provided him with his “three levels of glory.”

Would Smith have been thrown as far off track had the King James used the more common words “heavenly” and “earthly” instead of “celestial” and “terrestrial”? We cannot know, but surely, it would have been less of a temptation for Smith to come up with a never-before-seen word like “telestial” had the King James consistently translated the underlying Greek terms."

There is no reason to assume their interpretation of the "three heavens" is more correct than Joseph's.  Is there some reason you like theirs better?
Besides of which, Joseph's teachings on the degrees of glory were not based on study, but on vision.  A vision shared with Oliver Cowdery who later apostatized but never denied the vision.
Joseph said he saw more than the three degrees.  Again, vision.

The "connection" is not what provided Joseph with his three levels.  The vision was.


 

[theplains]

On 2017-6-21 at 10:32 PM, Vanguard said:

But don't we always fail? I view all commandments as the ideal standard from which all of our "realities" fall short in one form or another. The commandment to repent has to be part of this also. There is an ideal and a reality that falls short. That being the case, we all will have something in our lives that we have not perfectly repented for. Do you literally mean exaltation will be denied these individuals?

From what I know of LDS theology, exaltation is becoming a god or goddess. Even those in the lower two
divisions of the Celestial Kingdom will not achieve this, but rather they will be servants to the exalted beings
(D&C 132:16-17).

Jim