Gaslighting

[HappyJackWagon]

There's a new article about ways to know if you're being gas lighted. I find this topic fascinating because we've probably all experienced it in a personal relationship, at a job, and even in the church. Manipulation is at the core of gaslighting.

Quote

Inspired by the 1940 and 1944 films “Gas Light,” where a husband systematically manipulates his wife in order to make her feel crazy, the term “Gaslighting” is now commonly used to describe behavior that is inherently manipulative.

At times I've felt gas lighted after significant changes have been made to church history and doctrine yet when I've asked about it leaders, family, or people on this board act like I'm foolish for ever having believed the old way because they've ALWAYS known the real history and that the church has ALWAYS made the information available for member who cared enough to look. So if I didn't know it is my fault or my memory is faulty. But I know what I was taught and in return what I taught others. Others claiming I don't is really an attempt to get me to question myself and fan the flames of fear that I'm being deceived by Satan.

I see that this also happens in the church regarding covenants and expectations. Has anyone ever been told they have "covenanted" to wear their garments day and night, 24/7? I've never been able to find a place or time when that was done.

Has anyone ever been told that they have covenanted to attend their Sacrament and Priesthood meetings? I don't recall that ever happening.

The church is not alone in its gaslighting of members. It happens in many aspects of life, but it feels like a personal betrayal when it is realized. Can anyone think of other examples of gaslighting in the church?

 

 

http://www.theearthchild.co.za/youre-not-going-crazy-15-signs-youre-victim-gaslighting/

Edited May 8, 2017 by HappyJackWagon

[Calm]

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and interpret possible gaslighting as misunderstandings, different interpretations, and poor communication.  I have seen too many episodes on toowide a range of topics where two sincere and honest people give completely, sometimes contradictory interpretations of what happened or what was said to believe that conscious deception is all that common in casual conversations.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

The article isn't just saying it is manipulative, but abusive:

"Gaslighting, at its core, is a form of emotional abuse that slowly eats away at your ability to make judgments.  Essentially, a Gaslighter spins their negative, harmful or destructive words and actions in their favor, deflecting the blame for their abusive deeds and pointing the finger at you.  This is often done by making you feel “overly sensitive,” “paranoid,” “mentally unstable,” “silly,” “unhinged,” and many other sensations which cause you to doubt yourself.

Commonly adopted by psychopathic, sociopathic and narcissistic types of people, Gaslighting tends to eat away at you slowly until you realize that you’re a shell of the former person you were."

[CV75]

37 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

There's a new article about ways to know if you're being gas lighted.

I think you're doing it with this thread!

[CV75]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

The article isn't just saying it is manipulative, but abusive:

"Gaslighting, at its core, is a form of emotional abuse that slowly eats away at your ability to make judgments.  Essentially, a Gaslighter spins their negative, harmful or destructive words and actions in their favor, deflecting the blame for their abusive deeds and pointing the finger at you.  This is often done by making you feel “overly sensitive,” “paranoid,” “mentally unstable,” “silly,” “unhinged,” and many other sensations which cause you to doubt yourself.

Commonly adopted by psychopathic, sociopathic and narcissistic types of people, Gaslighting tends to eat away at you slowly until you realize that you’re a shell of the former person you were."

I think that describes this thread!

[HappyJackWagon]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

I think you're doing it with this thread!

How so?

 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think that describes this thread!

I would disagree that either what HJW does here or what the Church does is gaslighting, but if you do, you should explain in detail why as it is, imo,a very serious accusation.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Calm

[bsjkki]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

The article isn't just saying it is manipulative, but abusive:

"Gaslighting, at its core, is a form of emotional abuse that slowly eats away at your ability to make judgments.  Essentially, a Gaslighter spins their negative, harmful or destructive words and actions in their favor, deflecting the blame for their abusive deeds and pointing the finger at you.  This is often done by making you feel “overly sensitive,” “paranoid,” “mentally unstable,” “silly,” “unhinged,” and many other sensations which cause you to doubt yourself.

Commonly adopted by psychopathic, sociopathic and narcissistic types of people, Gaslighting tends to eat away at you slowly until you realize that you’re a shell of the former person you were."

Not a good day for me but sometimes, I feel leaders have been and are emotionally abusive. I was doing so much better but leaders do gaslight and some degrade and some do not show love. Some make members feel they will never be good enough and that repentance can never truly be complete. Some create hopelessness and despair and feelings of self-loathing. Some enjoy power and their egos get in the way of being good stewards.  The opposite is also true and some are kind, loving, inspire, uplift, bear burdens and show the way to Christ. Until you're sitting in their office, you just don't know what you're going to get. Some know that spiritual experiences, encouragement , love and hope bring huge motivation and large dividends but others are clueless and do not have the spirit with them. If they had the spirit, they would know the harm they were causing. 

[pogi]

The examples you share are not intentional manipulations and emotional abuse that I can see.  The garments, for example, could that not just be a misunderstanding that has been propagated?  In fact, the handbook of instructions specifically states:

Quote

Endowed members should wear the temple garment both day and night. They should not remove it, either entirely or partially, to work in the yard or for other activities that can reasonably be done with the garment worn properly beneath the clothing. Nor should they remove it to lounge around the home in swimwear or immodest clothing. When they must remove the garment, such as for swimming, they should put it back on as soon as possible.

Is there such a thing as reverse-gas lighting where people manipulate you by making you believe that you are being manipulative?  Because that's what this feels like. 

[bluebell]

Just now, bsjkki said:

Not a good day for me but sometimes, I feel leaders have been and are emotionally abusive. I was doing so much better but leaders do gaslight and some degrade and some do not show love. Some make members feel they will never be good enough and that repentance can never truly be complete. Some create hopelessness and despair and feelings of self-loathing. Some enjoy power and their egos get in the way of being good stewards.  The opposite is also true and some are kind, loving, inspire, uplift, bear burdens and show the way to Christ. Until you're sitting in their office, you just don't know what you're going to get. Some know that spiritual experiences, encouragement , love and hope bring huge motivation and large dividends but others are clueless and do not have the spirit with them. If they had the spirit, they would know the harm they were causing. 

I'm sorry that you're having a hard time right now.  I'm going to ask a question just because i'm not sure I understand what you are saying; i'm not trying to be snarky.

Are you saying that if leaders had the spirit they would never do anything wrong in their interpersonal communications?

[pogi]

15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think you're doing it with this thread!

You felt that too huh?

[Calm]

bj, I have no doubt there are abusive leaders and it appears you have encountered more than your fair share.  I know of one exbishop who I would include in that category, though it was his arguments to seduce a woman that lead me to that opinion, quite outside of his leadership, either religious or secular, duties, though he used those to lend his words weight.

I would not say there is an approved gaslighting strategy intended for general consumption though from high up leadership.  Nor would I label anything institututional as inherently abusive.

There is a significant difference imo between the occasional leader who has been able to hide his or her abusive ways and an institutionally approved abusive incident.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Calm

[churchistrue]

Gaslighting is another term like narcissist that is overused so much it's hard to even take seriously. 

[bsjkki]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm sorry that you're having a hard time right now.  I'm going to ask a question just because i'm not sure I understand what you are saying; i'm not trying to be snarky.

Are you saying that if leaders had the spirit they would never do anything wrong in their interpersonal communications?

I think "never" is a strong word. But, I have generally known in interviews whether the spirit was with me or there in the room with me. I have also felt it flee. So, I think the spirit does leave when things are not being done in a Christ-like way. Elder Brough in conference said this, "These men strive to represent the Lord. Whether we are old or young, when Satan wants us to think all is lost, bishops are there to guide us. When speaking with bishops, I have found a common theme regarding confessions of disobedience or the innocent suffering from terrible wrongs. Bishops instantly want to express Heavenly Father’s love for the individual and a desire to walk beside him or her as he or she finds the way home."

I wish this was always the case but it is not. This does not "always" happen and they are just imperfect men. They get it wrong many times. I thought a leader would always express Heavenly Father's love but have learned from experience, many do not. So, can you be acting angry, annoyed, and impatient or dismissive and have the spirit--I'm not really sure. From personal experience, when I have the spirit with me, I find an increased amount of love and patience for others.

Edited May 8, 2017 by bsjkki
wrong name

[bsjkki]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

bj, I have no doubt there are abusive leaders and it appears you have encountered more than your fair share.  I know of one exbishop who I would include in that category, though it was his arguments to seduce a woman that lead me to that opinion, quite outside of his leadership, either religious or secular, duties, though he used those to lend his words weight.

I would not say there is an approved gaslighting strategy intended for general consumption though from high up leadership.  Nor would I label anything institututional as inherently abusive.

There is a significant difference imo between the occasional leader who has been able to hide his or her abusive ways and an institutionally approved abusive incident.

I agree...leaders are not trained to be this way. It is not institutional and it is not supposed to be this way but sometimes it is. Power corrupts, even religious power.

[CV75]

34 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

How so?

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

I would disagree that either what HJW does here or what the Church does is gaslighting, but if you do, you should explain in detail why as it is, imo,a very serious accusation.

It was just a tongue-in-cheek in reaction to Happy identifying the Church as a gaslighter, which Clam’s description doesn’t support.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I agree...leaders are not trained to be this way. It is not institutional and it is not supposed to be this way but sometimes it is. Power corrupts, even religious power.

And it is a great tragedy when it happens, just as it is with abusive parents.  These are the people who are supposed to be protecting the vulnerable instead of preying on them.  Makes me weep.

[CV75]

19 minutes ago, pogi said:

You felt that too huh?

Only in that it seemed to be a bit of over-spun hyperbole in attributing one's feeling out of sync to the Church's intention to make one feel out of sync.

Now that you mention it, though, I think it hearkens back to Elder Chjristoffers'n's remarks about a "shame culture". https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/04/the-voice-of-warning?lang=eng

"Sometimes those who raise a warning voice are dismissed as judgmental [or in this case, that could be as gaslighting]. Paradoxically, however, those who claim truth is relative and moral standards are a matter of personal preference are often the same ones who most harshly criticize people who don’t accept the current norm of “correct thinking.” One writer referred to this as the “shame culture”:

“In a guilt culture you know you are good or bad by what your conscience feels. In a shame culture you know you are good or bad by what your community says about you, by whether it honors or excludes you. … [In the shame culture,] moral life is not built on the continuum of right and wrong; it’s built on the continuum of inclusion and exclusion. …

“… Everybody is perpetually insecure in a moral system based on inclusion and exclusion. There are no permanent standards, just the shifting judgment of the crowd. It is a culture of oversensitivity, overreaction and frequent moral panics, during which everybody feels compelled to go along. … 

“The guilt culture could be harsh, but at least you could hate the sin and still love the sinner. The modern shame culture allegedly values inclusion and tolerance, but it can be strangely unmerciful to those who disagree and to those who don’t fit in.”

It seems to me that a shame culture enables those same feelings that gaslighting induces, and enables the vulnerable to feel this way even when they are just being given a "'warning voice."

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

At times I've felt gas lighted after significant changes have been made to church history and doctrine yet when I've asked about it leaders, family, or people on this board act like I'm foolish for ever having believed the old way because they've ALWAYS known the real history and that the church has ALWAYS made the information available for member who cared enough to look.

I don't think I'd want to say the information has always been available. But certainly in the recent era since the mid 80's onward most of this information has been available. Certainly by the mid-90's I can't think of anything new that wasn't easily available from bookstores.

That said clearly not all members know it including many leaders. It's not at all uncommon for leaders, especially local leaders, to be somewhat ignorant. I could list a litany of weird things I've heard leaders say that were well intentioned but wrong.

I think the complaint of many though is people saying information wasn't available when it's information that's even been in the Ensign rather than history books. I think it's fair to say information you need to read history books for isn't easily available to everyone. (Although since the days since AOL brought internet to the masses I think that's been harder to say) But when it's been in church publications and easily accessible on lds.org I think criticisms are far less fair.

Quote

I see that this also happens in the church regarding covenants and expectations. Has anyone ever been told they have "covenanted" to wear their garments day and night, 24/7? I've never been able to find a place or time when that was done.

It's pretty common. Most people I know don't wear garments when swimming, bathing, or doing gym activities. With regards to the latter it varies a bit. For a period on my mission we were told to wear them on p-day when doing PE but prior to that no one did. My memory is vague about whether people went back to the old way because it's really, really hard to do PE with garments IMO. Chaffing is bad. I'm in gym clothes right now and not wearing garments. I don't feel particularly guilty about it.

Quote

Has anyone ever been told that they have covenanted to attend their Sacrament and Priesthood meetings? I don't recall that ever happening.

I can't recall hearing that although I've definitely heard that we should. So it's possible that someone's inferring it from our covenanting to be obedient and being told to attend meetings. It's not that far out an inference. I certainly think people should attend their meetings if possible.

Quote

The church is not alone in its gaslighting of members. It happens in many aspects of life, but it feels like a personal betrayal when it is realized. Can anyone think of other examples of gaslighting in the church?

I think you need to distinguish between intentional misleading to make someone doubt their reasoning and simply being mistaken. I can't think of any examples of gaslighting in the contemporary church. i.e. since my mission onward. Quite the contrary I see the brethren going out of their way to avoid errors. I think there's things they could do better. My pet peeve are the atrocious institute manuals. But I think overall lds.org has been fantastic.

Certainly some leaders do inappropriate things. On the other hand nothing quite as bad as Judas IMO. But I remember my wife being called in by her (then) Bishop and told to stop dating me because I was a player and going to lead her astray. A temple marriage and four kids later I think I'm on firm ground saying the Bishop was wrong and doing something inappropriate. But (and here's the big difference) I don't particularly care. It doesn't bother me because I'm sure the Bishop's heart was in the right place even if he was misled.

Edited May 8, 2017 by clarkgoble

[probablyHagoth7]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

...Can anyone think of other examples of gaslighting....?

Might comment at length at some point...on the other side of the veil.

Edited May 8, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[The Nehor]

Are you perhaps genuinely crazy?

[probablyHagoth7]

Nehor:

Edited May 8, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[rockpond]

I agree with HJW that we are seeing a lot of gaslighting within the church these days.  I also agree with Calm that much of it is not intentional. 

The "covenant" to wear garments always gives me a chuckle.  It doesn't exist.  And it is being perpetuated by well meaning people.

Over the past decade or so as I have navigated my faith crisis, I do believe that I've been gaslighted quite a bit, and it's frustrating.  So many posters here and members in my own life will say "how did you not know that?" while pretending that the Church didn't teach a different narrative, ignoring that JFS tore out that page containing a differing first vision account,  not acknowledging that the seer stone was hidden in a safe, forgetting that the manuals redacted Joseph's plural marriages and Brigham's teachings on polygamy, and hypothesizing that the ban of saving ordinances for an entire race came from God. 

So, as I said, all this does feel like gaslighting to me though mostly not intentional.  And the church publication of the gospel essays without bothering to explain that they differ from the prevailing narrative that was allowed to be perpetuated does border on abuse in my opinion. 

[Calm]

If it is unintentional, it is not gaslighting.

[Danzo]

24 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I agree with HJW that we are seeing a lot of gaslighting within the church these days.  I also agree with Calm that much of it is not intentional. 

 

How can gas-lighting be unintentional?

Isn't intent part of the gas-lighting?

Edited May 9, 2017 by Danzo