People leave the church because of a "trust gap"

[Meadowchik]

20 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I find nothing about Joseph Smith "untenable".
Our problem is that we cannot get past our own traditions, the ones he violated.
It is little different than Christ and the Pharisees.  Christ was busy breaking their deeply held convictions and laws and traditions.  And they just couldn't accept it.

That's not my problem.

The church formed my deeply held convictions, including Joseph's words. I was all in.  I lived as a Mormon when it went against local tradition.

 I defended the church and gospel my whole life and tried to live it and as I did so and continued to exercise faith, I learned that Joseph could not have been a prophet. I learned, from the LDS gospel, that there is a point that the Spirit will depart from a man.

Eventually, if we are fortunate, the truth will out. And, in my perspective in the case of Joseph Smith, it did.

[clarkgoble]

55 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

If you mean the white-washed narrative, I'm inclined to agree somewhat that modern society is too suspicious of institutions for it to work. 

This is important. We're seeing a general social trend towards distrust of all institutions. Only the military has remained trusted. The politics of the last year or so are one manifestation of that huge social change. The rise of the Nones as a demographic pattern is as much as a rejection of social institutions as anything. Many note that among the Nones it's not just rejection of organized religion but significantly decreased involvement with anything organized including sports or community organizations.

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Human flaws are to be expected.  Nevertheless, there is some point when the Spirit will depart from a man.

Do you subscribe to a limited atonement?

 

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

Amen!  My reason and my experiences are mine.  No one on this board can possibly know more than I do about my own experience.

(This is to the last response of Johnny Cake)

poppycock!  We all know your experiences better than you. 

okay that was my last poppycock! I hope.  And of course I'm teasing you Jeanne.  I agree with you. 

[Jeanne]

Just now, stemelbow said:

poppycock!  We all know your experiences better than you. 

okay that was my last poppycock! I hope.  And of course I'm teasing you Jeanne.  I agree with you. 

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

as I did so and continued to exercise faith, I learned that Joseph could not have been a prophet.

Sorry, but no, you didn't.
Joseph Smith is and was a prophet of God, the head of the final dispensation of Christ's gospel on the earth (and more that I won't bring up here).

Whatever you think you learned that makes you believe Joseph couldn't have been a prophet is in your interpretation of his life and events.  Nothing in his life actually precludes his calling to the office he held.

[SteveO]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

Exactly. And for not only youth but the rising number of unmarried people in their 20's and 30's sex matters a great deal. Not just sex but peers. I've seen it a lot among people who hit the 25 age and notice that suddenly all the socialization changes. Once they get the boot from singles wards how one socializes changes drastically and frankly many fall away. It's not just testimony. I knew of people sleeping around and doing drugs that still had fragments of their testimonies left but their social habits had effectively led them away.

Yep...every single millenial I personally known that has fallen away from the church has one thing in common:  they are 30+ years old, single, no marriage prospects, and struggling in academic/professional careers.  Every single criticism of the church I heard from them followed soon after a social media post (usually Facebook) essentially "throwing up their hands" in frustration and hurt.

Its not church history that is killing millennials--MAYBE a few of them, but it's not remotely the problem many on this board would like us to believe.  

What's driving away millennials is loneliness within the church...

 

[Johnnie Cake]

25 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I definitely think we need a shakeup in a lot of the structure of church meetings. I don't know anyone who really likes it.  I know the Church does do tests of different approaches. There even were some tests of a 2 hour block a few years back. Honestly I think the church magazines could use a huge update too. Starting in the 90's they became far more devotional and superficial. You go back to the 80's or 70's and while they weren't perfect there was a lot more content. Now it seems like most lessons and resources are oriented towards new members.

But again, the real issue is the teachers. And frankly often the best teachers are in other callings. The reason we make jokes about superficial sunday school answers and discussions is because of the teachers not the topics. I've had enough fantastic lessons by teachers to know how big a difference the teacher makes.

Given a choice between a 1 hour block, a 2 hour block, a 3 hour block or a 4 hour block...which option do you really think members of the church would choose?

[Jeanne]

Just now, SteveO said:

Yep...every single millenial I personally known that has fallen away from the church has one thing in common:  they are 30+ years old, single, no marriage ppects, and struggling in academic/professional careers.  Every single criticism of the church I heard from them followed soon after a social media post (usually Facebook) essentially "throwing up their hands" in frustration and hurt.

Its not church history that is killing millennials--MAYBE a few of them, but it's not remotely the problem many on this board would like us to believe.  

What's driving away millennials is loneliness within the church...

 

You have a good point.  There seems to be with my son's friends, an empty space that isn't getting filled.  This is compounded if they hasve made and been promised certain blessings that they feel obsolete at this point. 

[ttribe]

12 hours ago, SamIam said:

On what grounds do you make such a judgment? 

Oh, that's an easy one.  1 - Wholesale dismissal of the reasons provided by the people who actually left on why they left? Check.  2 - Telling those people what the "real" reason is for their leaving the Church? Check.  3 - Insert your personal interpretation of dogma as the final answer on the issue?  Check.

Fits the definition I linked, nicely.

[SteveO]

18 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

poppycock!  We all know your experiences better than you. 

okay that was my last poppycock! I hope.  And of course I'm teasing you Jeanne.  I agree with you. 

And we're just supposed to take it on *ahem* faith, that people don't put into practice the very human nature of putting their best foot forward at all times???

You do realize that there's a lot of anecdotal evidence in our personal lives, and in the lives of people we know, to suggest that it isn't merely finding out church history that leads people away?

I don't think you know our experiences better than us?

 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

While this appears to be true, I believe secularism is able to make inroads because people feel an incongruity between what their churches teach, and what they have come to believe through science, etc. If that is what you mean by secularism, then yes, it is probably the largest single factor. But yes, you can also observe that secularists don't like being shamed. Thus, the major mega-churches don't preach repentance or about the sins of society. They only preach "positive things." Thus, when society is sickest, it does not receive a remedy.

Yes, all too true,  although it is fun to hear the Prosperity Gospel preached, and it does convey the power of positive thinking.

[RevTestament]

9 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Oh, I understand that. For the last two years and more, until recently, I lived next door to a person who lied and hurt us. He seemed to have the the traits of a narcissist and pathological liar. He would volunteer potentially embarassing things, especially if it spared him worse embarrassment or other undesirable penalties. So you could say I have researched this.

One thing that strikes me about Joseph is that he started with a very particular group of believers and followers with shared interests.  As his following expanded, so did his versions of events alter and evolve. One could say that more impressive evidence was needed as his udience grew in number and variety of worldview. 

Anyways, you and I are at fundamental disagreement in our methodology. I don't think one experience, however interpreted, can stand as confirmation for an entire religion.

I guess what I am saying is that I am not proposing that my witness confirms an entire religion. My witness confirms a true gospel. There are a good number of things about "Mormonism" with which I disagree or even dislike. For me, Joseph's perceived mistakes in polygamous marriage are one of the lesser "concerns."  If my faith were in Church apostles, I would not be a member. Too many have made mistakes as far as I am concerned - particularly about the nature of God, and the interpretations of various scriptures.

But I imagine if I had lived with the original 12 apostles, I would have witnessed very imperfect men - the leader of whom denied our Savior after following Him around watching him perform all kinds of miracles.

[Johnnie Cake]

4 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Yep...every single millenial I personally known that has fallen away from the church has one thing in common:  they are 30+ years old, single, no marriage prospects, and struggling in academic/professional careers.  Every single criticism of the church I heard from them followed soon after a social media post (usually Facebook) essentially "throwing up their hands" in frustration and hurt.

Its not church history that is killing millennials--MAYBE a few of them, but it's not remotely the problem many on this board would like us to believe.  

What's driving away millennials is loneliness within the church...

 

Ummm.. every single one?  It's obvious we don't run in the same circles....but my experience has been just the opposite...I'm seeing successful, highly educated, high income earning professionals leaving the church in droves.  These professionals are also leaving for the very same reason..."The Trust Gap"

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, SteveO said:

And we're just supposed to take it on *ahem* faith, that people don't put into practice the very human nature of putting their best foot forward at all times???

You do realize that there's a lot of anecdotal evidence in our personal lives, and in the lives of people we know, to suggest that it isn't merely finding out church history that leads people away?

I don't think you know our experiences better than us?

 

Do a study and come back to me.  Tell me your anecdotal experience says something different then a qualified study and I'll have to count that as either you not really paying attention to others, or your experience is represented by anomaly.  I'll go with the latter, because the former seems unfair and mean. 

Sound good? 

[SteveO]

2 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Ummm.. every single one?  It's obvious we don't run in the same circles....but my experience has been just the opposite...I'm seeing successful, highly educated, high income earning professionals leaving the church in droves.  These professionals are also leaving for the very same reason..."The Trust Gap"

I Forgot, only financially successful people leave the church...they all move to Park City too?

 

I said, "every single one I personally know"

[ttribe]

1 minute ago, SteveO said:

And we're just supposed to take it on *ahem* faith, that people don't put into practice the very human nature of putting their best foot forward at all times???

You do realize that there's a lot of anecdotal evidence in our personal lives, and in the lives of people we know, to suggest that it isn't merely finding out church history that leads people away?

I don't think you know our experiences better than us?

 

And herein lies the paradox - two people who adamantly believe they received answers, and yet the two answers cannot both be true.  To the third party observer, this makes reliance on *feelings* a non-starter.

[Jeanne]

Just now, SteveO said:

And we're just supposed to take it on *ahem* faith, that people don't put into practice the very human nature of putting their best foot forward at all times???

You do realize that there's a lot of anecdotal evidence in our personal lives, and in the lives of people we know, to suggest that it isn't merely finding out church history that leads people away?

I don't think you know our experiences better than us?

 

I am sure that many here have learned things and prevailed with the strength to remain and affirm their faith.  Every journey is different.  I didn't just suddenly read something and just walk away..I waited..I studied..I went to two Bishops...Stake Presidents and asked them to ANSWER ME!  HELP!   

[SteveO]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Do a study and come back to me.  Tell me your anecdotal experience says something different then a qualified study and I'll have to count that as either you not really paying attention to others, or your experience is represented by anomaly.  I'll go with the latter, because the former seems unfair and mean. 

Sound good? 

Alright, wait here and I'll get back to you.

In the meantime, I'll just dismiss all my experiences, and accept yours and other anonymous posters as the narrative then

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Yep...every single millenial I personally known that has fallen away from the church has one thing in common:  they are 30+ years old, single, no marriage prospects, and struggling in academic/professional careers.  Every single criticism of the church I heard from them followed soon after a social media post (usually Facebook) essentially "throwing up their hands" in frustration and hurt.

Its not church history that is killing millennials--MAYBE a few of them, but it's not remotely the problem many on this board would like us to believe.

What's driving away millennials is loneliness within the church...

 

What's driving millennials away is that wonderful word "fulfillment".

They no longer feel fulfilled by their Church membership.  The Church isn't "giving them what they need".
Because you know, the gospel is all about God making us content.  Yeah, that's what the gospel shows.  How happy the lives of the righteous must always be.

Seriously, sometimes I wonder if persecution the likes of Missouri or the Early Christians came upon this Church again if even 1% of the membership would hold to the faith.  As Joseph Smith said "they cannot stand the fire at all".

[Johnnie Cake]

1 minute ago, SteveO said:

I Forgot, only financially successful people leave the church...they all move to Park City too?

 

I said, "every single one I personally know"

I'm pretty confident that the members exiting the church are filled with people from every demographic sector...the rich, the poor, those with families and singles, professionals, laborers, white collar and blue collar...the exit appears to be widespread throughout the church...with the common predominate thread being the trust gap

[SteveO]

7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am sure that many here have learned things and prevailed with the strength to remain and affirm their faith.  Every journey is different.  I didn't just suddenly read something and just walk away..I waited..I studied..I went to two Bishops...Stake Presidents and asked them to ANSWER ME!  HELP!   

Every journey IS different, but you guys swing all the way to the other side and seem to make a point that everyone who has left, has done so for legitimate, rational, studied out reasons...it's simply not so.  I still maintain that people are led away from making mistakes that drive away the spirit.

I do take a number of posters here though at their word, that they left for their stated reasons--although I sometimes do wonder if we get the entire story.  But I don't believe they represent the majority of those who leave.

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Alright, wait here and I'll get back to you.

In the meantime, I'll just dismiss all my experiences, and accept yours and other anonymous posters as the narrative then

I didn't say anything about my experience, SteveO.  But if you asked me, I'd say my experiences represent a pretty varied account of why people leave.  I've run into tons who have left, in essence, because of trust issues.  It seems like whenever I've run into to someone who has left and wants to explain issues of the church, they do so with little regard to detail.  Either they looked into the details some time before and have forgotten the details or are less concerned about details and have left because details don't matter so much as the fact that these troubling pieces of info were not mentioned, or taught by the Church. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

.......................................

Did Joseph talk about his sins? No. That just shouldn't be a big surprise. The fact that the Lord openly rebuked him though, should be a surprise to critics who believe he was a fake. 

There is a principle in history known as the principle of embarrassment. When embarrassing things are said or written by a person or their followers, historians generally accept them as true, because fakes don't record embarrassing stuff about themselves.......................................

One of the great features of the Bible is its self-critical nature:  It holds up the mistakes and sins of great heroes and of the chosen people, and designates punishment for each instance.

As for Joseph, of course he talked about his sins.  He asked the Saints to bear with his infirmities, and declared that a prophet is only a prophet when acting as such.  Joseph said:    

Quote

I fell into transgression and sinned in many things which brought a wound upon my soul and there were many things which transpired that cannot be written.  Joseph Smith Personal History (1832), [3-4], in D. Jessee, ed., The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith (1984), 6; cf. D&C 3:9.

. . . [A]s is common to most, or all youths, I fell into many vices and follies: . . . a light, and too often, vain mind, exhibiting a foolish and trifling conversation.
        *        *        *        *        *        *
    . . . it is not without a deep feeling of regret that I am thus called upon in answer to my own conscience, . . in making this public confession of my former uncircumspect walk, and unchaste conversation: and more particularly, as I often acted in violation of those holy precepts which I knew came from God.  Letter of Joseph to Oliver Cowdery, ca. Dec 1834 (Jessee, Personal Writings, 336-337), and published in Latter Day Saints' Messenger & Advocate, I/3 (Dec 1834), 40.

. . . I was left to all kinds of temptations, and mingling with all kinds of society, I frequently fell into many foolish errors and displayed the weakness of youth and the corruption of human nature, which I am sorry to say led me into divers temptations, to the gratification of many appetites, offensive in the sight of God.  In consequence of these things I often felt condemned.  Times & Seasons, III:479; cf. the heavily edited version in Roberts, History of the Church, I:9-10 = JS-H 28; Oliver Cowdery said simply that Joseph was a "man subject to passion like other men, beset with infirmities and encompassed with weaknesses" (M&A, II:201), which alludes to the same problem faced by the biblical prophets and apostles (Acts 14:15, II Cor 4:7, Jas 5:17; cf. Roberts in HC, I:XLI-XLVII.

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[stemelbow]

14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

What's driving millennials away is that wonderful word "fulfillment".

They no longer feel fulfilled by their Church membership.  The Church isn't "giving them what they need".
Because you know, the gospel is all about God making us content.  Yeah, that's what the gospel shows.  How happy the lives of the righteous must always be.

Seriously, sometimes I wonder if persecution the likes of Missouri or the Early Christians came upon this Church again if even 1% of the membership would hold to the faith.  As Joseph Smith said "they cannot stand the fire at all".

It'd be good for us to pause and question whether it is the Church that is the culprit in people feeling unfulfilled in Church.  I don't think its just millennials that have this problem of course.  People have been leaving Church for decades because they weren't getting their spiritual needs met. 

The problem might be less about the people leaving and more about the Church itself.