People leave the church because of a "trust gap"

[RevTestament]

27 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Yep...every single millenial I personally known that has fallen away from the church has one thing in common:  they are 30+ years old, single, no marriage prospects, and struggling in academic/professional careers.  Every single criticism of the church I heard from them followed soon after a social media post (usually Facebook) essentially "throwing up their hands" in frustration and hurt.

Its not church history that is killing millennials--MAYBE a few of them, but it's not remotely the problem many on this board would like us to believe.  

What's driving away millennials is loneliness within the church...

 

 

21 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

 

You have a good point.  There seems to be with my son's friends, an empty space that isn't getting filled.  This is compounded if they hasve made and been promised certain blessings that they feel obsolete at this point. 

I know when I joined the Church some 40 years ago - this was a huge factor for me. The Church became the center of my social life. New friends that believed like me, and who loved me for who I was for the most part. Friendly people I could discuss stuff with. Although I am not a good basketball player, I even played some basketball. But, the dances became important, especially since I ended up in an all-male high school.  For awhile the Church just became the center of my life, and I loved it - virtually everything about it.  Now in my 50s there are no more dances, little social life, which I haven't really enjoyed anyway, and few other things I am not so enamored with. However, on the positive side there are still singles wards, although I am not young nor single. However, outside of Utah, I don't know what my experience may have been.  But based on my own current experience, I think I can appreciate what some of these millennials are talking about. My wife on the other hand, seems relatively happy with the church in Utah.

[clarkgoble]

35 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Given a choice between a 1 hour block, a 2 hour block, a 3 hour block or a 4 hour block...which option do you really think members of the church would choose?

I'd imagine they'd look at not just what people want but also what effects it had both in terms of statistics but also problems the Bishops saw in the test wards. The fact nothing came of it likely indicates they thought there were problems.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

That doesn't appear to be happening or have happened. Seriously CV75, they're ready already!

And for them, the teacher, in this case the parents, did indeed appear--says so right there in the quote from the article!

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, RevTestament said:

all

I know when I joined the Church some 40 years ago - this was a huge factor for me. The Church became the center of my social life. New friends that believed like me, and who loved me for who I was for the most part. Friendly people I could discuss stuff with. Although I am not a good basketball player, I even played some basketball. But, the dances became important, especially since I ended up in an all-male high school.  For awhile the Church just became the center of my life, and I loved it - virtually everything about it.  Now in my 50s there are no more dances, little social life, which I haven't really enjoyed anyway, and few other things I am not so enamored with. However, on the positive side there are still singles wards, although I am not young nor single. However, outside of Utah, I don't know what my experience may have been.  But based on my own current experience, I think I can appreciate what some of these millennials are talking about. My wife on the other hand, seems relatively happy with the church in Utah.

I am in my sixties...whether it is Utah or in or out of any church..I feel invisible all of sudden.  I appreciate your honest post above. 

[clarkgoble]

11 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It'd be good for us to pause and question whether it is the Church that is the culprit in people feeling unfulfilled in Church.  I don't think its just millennials that have this problem of course.  People have been leaving Church for decades because they weren't getting their spiritual needs met. 

The problem might be less about the people leaving and more about the Church itself. 

Way back in the 80's and early 90's there were a few studies suggesting that socialization not doctrine was the key factor in both retention of new members but also retention of longer term members. As I mentioned if you look at the larger national demographic changes that too is a major change.

The problem is that it's not clear the Church has much, if any, control over this beyond encouraging people to be social to each other - in particular to the people who are maybe quiet and shy. I'm horrible at this I'll fully admit. But it makes a huge difference in how well a ward functions. Still there are limits as to what they can do. Socialization for people over 25 is different from under 25 and much different for people in their 30's or later. Almost intrinsically you'll socialize more with people outside of Church and there's always a peer group effect.

I think it's less about the Church than just the very different socialization patterns in our society - in particular the rates and age of marriage. It's also just about how people act in our society. There are many broad social problems related to this and not really unique in the least to Mormons. If anything we're probably doing better than most groups. Polls have 72% of Americans feeling lonely. We just aren't socially connected as we used to be and those leaving religion are the least connected of all.

Edited April 20, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Scott Lloyd]

13 hours ago, William Jones said:

I think a lot of church leaders were like Paul Dunn and his exaggerated stories that he used to tell, for faithful purposes. Over the years, building faith turned into stretching the truth or outright "lies for the lord." They may have meant well, but reality isn't that faith promoting at times and so there is a temptation to make the story better. Now, with the internet, it's hard to hide it any more.

Other than Paul H. Dunn, I'm hard-pressed to think of a Church leader who meets this description.

 

[JulieM]

21 minutes ago, SteveO said:

I still maintain that people are led away from making mistakes that drive away the spirit.

If that were the case none of us would have the spirit with us as mistakes are made daily by all.

Your narrative is the old "people left to sin" or "sinned so they left" one.  That's just not the case with any that I'm personally acquainted with.  

[thesometimesaint]

If you are looking for a mate. Go to a dating service. They are cheaper.

If you are looking for a friend. Get a dog. They'll like you no matter what.

If you want lots of money. Spend every waking hour in getting it.

It you are looking for sinless mortals. You are looking in the wrong place.

But if you are looking for a bunch of people trying to become more like the God they love. We're some of the better ones.

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[Johnnie Cake]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Other than Paul H. Dunn, I'm hard-pressed to think of a Church leader who meets this description.

 

There is some chatter that 2 particular talks given in the last General Conference used Dunn-Like liberties to make their faith promoting stories...well more faith promoting.  One involved a Stake Center fire story...where liberties were made in the story to make it faith promoting and the other that I am aware of is the Japan tsunami story where liberties were taken to embellish that story to make it more faith promoting than the actual events that took place. 

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

I am in my sixties...whether it is Utah or in or out of any church..I feel invisible all of sudden.  I appreciate your honest post above. 

It's extremely difficult to find a place that we once had in the church Jeanne, totally understand. I feel invisible as well since not attending for several weeks now. But felt invisible even with activity, I feel I'm on some sort of radar to avoid people like me. (Calm, disregard my comment here, I know what you're thinking, that I need to assert myself. Maybe I do). 

I wonder how those that are TBM and aren't actively attending feel, if they feel the same. Or is it just those that don't believe any longer that members leave alone? 

My single divorced brother-in-law has found a singles group that probably saved his life, and helped him feel less alone. They hike nearly every weekend and love it. 

Meet-up groups online help people get together, with similar likes etc. www.meetup.com 

Like Rev, I do remember more social things in the church that are no longer available any longer. Maybe with the church's size? There were days of women's sports, I'm not talking about young women, all ages, that played volley ball, softball etc. That is gone, along with men's softball. The men still have their basketball. But haven't seen anything for the women, just young women and I believe it's just volley ball and basketball, but could be wrong. 

I don't see many social gatherings either, maybe it's just my ward or I'm not hearing about anything. 

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Way back in the 80's and early 90's there were a few studies suggesting that socialization not doctrine was the key factor in both retention of new members but also retention of longer term members. As I mentioned if you look at the larger national demographic changes that too is a major change.

The problem is that it's not clear the Church has much, if any, control over this beyond encouraging people to be social to each other - in particular to the people who are maybe quiet and shy. I'm horrible at this I'll fully admit. But it makes a huge difference in how well a ward functions. Still there are limits as to what they can do. Socialization for people over 25 is different from under 25 and much different for people in their 30's or later. Almost intrinsically you'll socialize more with people outside of Church and there's always a peer group effect.

I think it's less about the Church than just the very different socialization patterns in our society - in particular the rates and age of marriage.

It's odd, my wife and I notice the most engaged members in our ward have been those who are most prone to feel justified in condemning others for whatever reason they've figured it seems.  They seem most happy when they get together to condemn others either in the ward, or who have left Church who have children who they feel are problems.  Its tough.  We find ourselves really just wanting to be on the outside of that circle because of that, but then being on the outside we not only feel unwelcome in many circumstances but also find ourselves as the focus of much of the chatter that gives social fulfillment.  In a sense I'm happy to take one for the team, if that's how it continues to play out, though.  But the problem of course is that this social aspect you mention, seems to be the cancer that is the problem.  it'd be bad in my mind to get people into the Church or get people back to Church only to have them feel all the more justified in looking down upon others.  We're certainly not the only ones skirting around on the outside, though.  So there's that. 

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It'd be good for us to pause and question whether it is the Church that is the culprit in people feeling unfulfilled in Church.  I don't think its just millennials that have this problem of course.  People have been leaving Church for decades because they weren't getting their spiritual needs met.

The problem might be less about the people leaving and more about the Church itself.

That may happen on occasion.  But I don't think it is the majority at all.
It is the change in society to the "what's in it for me" mentality.  This is the same change that has led companies to offer flextime, telecommuting, etc.

The early saints starved to death on the trail trying to get to Zion.  Early Christians went underground and were fed to lions if caught.
Joseph Smith was in Liberty for 6 months.

We whine and complain that our meetings don't talk about Jesus enough, that there aren't enough women speakers proportionally, and that the saints living polygamy over a century ago bothers our sensibilities. 
Honestly it's pathetic.
 

[RevTestament]

19 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

One of the great features of the Bible is its self-critical nature:  It holds up the mistakes and sins of great heroes and of the chosen people, and designates punishment for each instance.

As for Joseph, of course he talked about his sins.  He asked the Saints to bear with his infirmities, and declared that a prophet is only a prophet when acting as such.  Joseph said:    

I fell into transgression and sinned in many things which brought a wound upon my soul and there were many things which transpired that cannot be written.  Joseph Smith Personal History (1832), [3-4], in D. Jessee, ed., The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith (1984), 6; cf. D&C 3:9.

. . . [A]s is common to most, or all youths, I fell into many vices and follies: . . . a light, and too often, vain mind, exhibiting a foolish and trifling conversation.
        *        *        *        *        *        *
    . . . it is not without a deep feeling of regret that I am thus called upon in answer to my own conscience, . . in making this public confession of my former uncircumspect walk, and unchaste conversation: and more particularly, as I often acted in violation of those holy precepts which I knew came from God.  Letter of Joseph to Oliver Cowdery, ca. Dec 1834 (Jessee, Personal Writings, 336-337), and published in Latter Day Saints' Messenger & Advocate, I/3 (Dec 1834), 40.

. . . I was left to all kinds of temptations, and mingling with all kinds of society, I frequently fell into many foolish errors and displayed the weakness of youth and the corruption of human nature, which I am sorry to say led me into divers temptations, to the gratification of many appetites, offensive in the sight of God.  In consequence of these things I often felt condemned.  Times & Seasons, III:479; cf. the heavily edited version in Roberts, History of the Church, I:9-10 = JS-H 28; Oliver Cowdery said simply that Joseph was a "man subject to passion like other men, beset with infirmities and encompassed with weaknesses" (M&A, II:201), which alludes to the same problem faced by the biblical prophets and apostles (Acts 14:15, II Cor 4:7, Jas 5:17; cf. Roberts in HC, I:XLI-XLVII.

I am the first to acknowledge that he mentioned his sins, but he didn't discuss them. What I mean  is he doesn't really tell us what they are. I am not really saying I expect him to either. I admit that I am a sinner, but I rarely disclose the nature of my sins. We only get a small flavor from Joseph Smith as to what exactly he was talking about - money digging? Taking money for pretending to find treasure? If I had seen Joseph do that, I would have walked away from him. There were a lot of accusations about him which he doesn't seem to specifically address so we are left with some considerable guess work. Personally, I find Joseph credible, although there are a few comments which leave me wondering, and a handful in which he was just wrong. But, I do believe him to be a prophet and seer. Several of his prophecies have already come true, and others are in the works, and soon people will see that he cannot be simply dismissed. I have developed some 30+ points of veracity in the BoM which I believe are demonstrably true - things a fraudster, or someone just making up stuff could not possibly have known. That is just too many to dismiss without being called to translate a true account. There is no doubt Joseph was called by the Lord. I believe his weakness in his trials made him a stronger proponent of the gospel in the end.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

That's not my problem.

The church formed my deeply held convictions, including Joseph's words. I was all in.  I lived as a Mormon when it went against local tradition.

 I defended the church and gospel my whole life and tried to live it and as I did so and continued to exercise faith, I learned that Joseph could not have been a prophet. I learned, from the LDS gospel, that there is a point that the Spirit will depart from a man.

Eventually, if we are fortunate, the truth will out. And, in my perspective in the case of Joseph Smith, it did.

If we accept that the Spirit can depart from a prophet, we must by the same token allow that the Spirit can depart from the follower of a prophet with the result that the follower no longer accepts the prophet.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

That may happen on occasion.  But I don't think it is the majority at all.
It is the change in society to the "what's in it for me" mentality.  This is the same change that has led companies to offer flextime, telecommuting, etc.

yeah those have nothing to do with helping to create a better environment wherein employees actually become more productive.  It's those danged employees attitudes of wanting something from the big guys. 

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The early saints starved to death on the trail trying to get to Zion.  Early Christians went underground and were fed to lions if caught.
Joseph Smith was in Liberty for 6 months.

We whine and complain that our meetings don't talk about Jesus enough, that there aren't enough women speakers proportionally, and that the saints living polygamy over a century ago bothers our sensibilities. 
Honestly it's pathetic.
 

Whining...trying to help each other find our best way...potato, potaato, whatever. 

It's certainly not as if people are starving to death today, or that there aren't people out there who have to live underground, or people who aren't stuck in a prison with the worst of conditions today.  It was only then.  So we know those who have issues with certain aspects of the Church are just whining while spoiled little brats. 

Sorry, JLHPROF, can't go along with you there.  There are plenty more factors that complicate your simplified condemnation. 

[RevTestament]

26 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am in my sixties...whether it is Utah or in or out of any church..I feel invisible all of sudden.  I appreciate your honest post above. 

I believe I am always honest...sometimes I believe I am perceived to be honest to a fault

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Sorry, JLHPROF, can't go along with you there.  There are plenty more factors that complicate your simplified condemnation.

Never said these were the only reasons Millennials leave.  Just that the change in mentality is one major factor.
There are those who leave when they cannot accept Church history events that trouble them too.  That has nothing to do with the fulfillment mentality.

There is no one reason.  I just offer one of the reasons that I consider to be very valid.

[William Jones]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Other than Paul H. Dunn, I'm hard-pressed to think of a Church leader who meets this description.

 

Johnny Cake responded well to your question.  Also, I don't think you can deny that certain church stories got exaggerated over time.  Who do you think did that?  My ancestors crossed the plains with the Martin handcart company.  After that disaster, my ancestor was counseled, from the brethren, not to talk about it.  He didn't even write down his recollections in a journal because he didn't want to go against the brethren.  His children begged him to do so but he was firm.  Why do you think he was instructed not to talk about it?  If you look at the real history, it was because it was a mistake by Brigham Young and compounded by Franklin Richards, an apostle at the time.  It wasn't exactly the faith promoting story it's been twisted into today.  It was simply a tragedy that should have been avoided.  Humans make mistakes and this certainly was one.  But to make it into some faith promoting story out of the tragedy sure makes one question.

[William Jones]

Is it too tough to admit that maybe people leave for legitimate reasons?

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Never said these were the only reasons Millennials leave.  Just that the change in mentality is one major factor.
There are those who leave when they cannot accept Church history events that trouble them too.  That has nothing to do with the fulfillment mentality.

There is no one reason.  I just offer one of the reasons that I consider to be very valid.

Whatever the case, God is supposed to be about saving mankind, even if they are all but whiners in your view.  If the Church is so necessary for salvation as some seem to indicate, then one wonders why God is unable to make it adapt for more people.  Perhaps He knows the church is less necessary and leaves us with the cultural tradition of Church because, well, some people do well with it, but other than that, He's not so into making Church work for people because He knows the Church isn't really going to help anyone to salvation.  He will. 

[Scott Lloyd]

21 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

There is some chatter that 2 particular talks given in the last General Conference used Dunn-Like liberties to make their faith promoting stories...well more faith promoting.  One involved a Stake Center fire story...where liberties were made in the story to make it faith promoting and the other that I am aware of is the Japan tsunami story where liberties were taken to embellish that story to make it more faith promoting than the actual events that took place. 

In the absence of solid documentation, I must chalk up this report of "some chatter" to common, garden-variety rumor-mongering.

 

[thesometimesaint]

19 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It's extremely difficult to find a place that we once had in the church Jeanne, totally understand. I feel invisible as well since not attending for several weeks now. But felt invisible even with activity, I feel I'm on some sort of radar to avoid people like me. (Calm, disregard my comment here, I know what you're thinking, that I need to assert myself. Maybe I do). 

I wonder how those that are TBM and aren't actively attending feel, if they feel the same. Or is it just those that don't believe any longer that members leave alone? 

My single divorced brother-in-law has found a singles group that probably saved his life, and helped him feel less alone. They hike nearly every weekend and love it. 

Meet-up groups online help people get together, with similar likes etc. www.meetup.com 

Like Rev, I do remember more social things in the church that are no longer available any longer. Maybe with the church's size? There were days of women's sports, I'm not talking about young women, all ages, that played volley ball, softball etc. That is gone, along with men's softball. The men still have their basketball. But haven't seen anything for the women, just young women and I believe it's just volley ball and basketball, but could be wrong. 

I don't see many social gatherings either, maybe it's just my ward or I'm not hearing about anything. 

I'm about as TBM as they come. Due to health concerns I'm no long able to attend as much as I would like. I get to Sacrament Meetings maybe twice a month in good months, and other meetings not all. OTOH I keep a current Temple Recommend. My Bishop and S.P. fully understand.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, William Jones said:

Johnny Cake responded well to your question. 

Did you see my reply to Johnny Cake's response? The one I just posted?

He said there has been "some chatter" about this and that, and he provided zero documentation. I don't see that as him having "responded well."

Quote

Also, I don't think you can deny that certain church stories got exaggerated over time.  Who do you think did that?  My ancestors crossed the plains with the Martin handcart company.  After that disaster, my ancestor was counseled, from the brethren, not to talk about it.  He didn't even write down his recollections in a journal because he didn't want to go against the brethren.  His children begged him to do so but he was firm.  Why do you think he was instructed not to talk about it?  If you look at the real history, it was because it was a mistake by Brigham Young and compounded by Franklin Richards, an apostle at the time.  It wasn't exactly the faith promoting story it's been twisted into today.  It was simply a tragedy that should have been avoided.  Humans make mistakes and this certainly was one.  But to make it into some faith promoting story out of the tragedy sure makes one question.

I was thinking more in terms of modern-day. Can you cite any episode since Paul Dunn where a Church leaders has fabricated stories and passed them off as truth as he did?

 

[William Jones]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

In the absence of solid documentation, I must chalk up this report of "some chatter" to common, garden-variety rumor-mongering.

 

Listen to the conference review pt. 2 at http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/.  They make a good case for the exaggerated miracle stories. They give proof as well.

[thesometimesaint]

Peter saw Jesus walk on water. Yet he denied him three times in one night.