The Nehor Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 3 minutes ago, bsjkki said: This victim needs applause. Bringing this forward and bringing it to trial took incredible bravery and she did it to save others. She knew he was in a position of trust that enabled him to continue his vile acts and she stopped him. I have mixed feelings about this statement. On one hand the victim should be praised but I do not think that is the judge's job. I have known many cases where people take a case to court against someone (cheating employer or employee, abusive significant other, or whatever) and they win the case handily but are dissatisfied afterwards. The judge did not call out the person in the wrong in the courtroom and humiliate them and vindicate the victim. They seem to expect a Lifetime movie moment of victory over their broken enemy and it is not really the court's duty to provide that. Of course if people independent of the court system give praise that is great. And judges should not waste time arguing for how good the criminal is. Why does the judge feel the need to give such a speech? Just say that in light of the severity of the crime and taking into account all mitigating factors I sentence you to X and call it done. 1
bsjkki Posted April 18, 2017 Author Posted April 18, 2017 I'm disappointed in the Deseret News. It took them 5 days to cover this story. That's an eternity in modern journalism. 3
bsjkki Posted April 18, 2017 Author Posted April 18, 2017 5 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I have mixed feelings about this statement. On one hand the victim should be praised but I do not think that is the judge's job. I have known many cases where people take a case to court against someone (cheating employer or employee, abusive significant other, or whatever) and they win the case handily but are dissatisfied afterwards. The judge did not call out the person in the wrong in the courtroom and humiliate them and vindicate the victim. They seem to expect a Lifetime movie moment of victory over their broken enemy and it is not really the court's duty to provide that. Of course if people independent of the court system give praise that is great. And judges should not waste time arguing for how good the criminal is. Why does the judge feel the need to give such a speech? Just say that in light of the severity of the crime and taking into account all mitigating factors I sentence you to X and call it done. To clarify, I think the community should applaud her actions. I would like the judge to be professional. He waded into some praise but I've been trying to pinpoint why his comments to the victim seemed off. I'm not sure I agree or disagree about whether the judge should give praise--it wasn't what I was thinking when I typed that statement but I'm not sure I agree with you either. This is what he said to the victim. "Low's statement Wednesday also addressed Kirby directly, calling her a "survivor" and voicing confidence she could become an advocate and comforter for others. He emphasized that Kirby and the second victim in the case were in no way responsible for the abuse they suffered. "They were caught unawares in an environment and a place where they should have been at their safest, but that does not reflect on them. That could have happened to anyone," Low said."
The Nehor Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 8 minutes ago, bsjkki said: I'm disappointed in the Deseret News. It took them 5 days to cover this story. That's an eternity in modern journalism. To be fair in the last five days we flirted with a nuclear confrontation and jumped back into a Middle East quagmire. Those news stories would take priority.
Calm Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 (edited) DN posted a story about a guy crying over pack meeting during that time. Though that probably didn't involve their reporters who do the heavy stuff. Edited April 18, 2017 by Calm 2
bsjkki Posted April 18, 2017 Author Posted April 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: To be fair in the last five days we flirted with a nuclear confrontation and jumped back into a Middle East quagmire. Those news stories would take priority. No excuse for a big local story from a local newspaper. They even admit how so many others covered the story before them. "As Low's comments spread online — with news organizations including the New York Daily News, Washington Post, Associate Press, Huffington Post and others picking up the story — " Even the Arab News picked it up from the AP before them. http://www.arabnews.com/node/1084866/world I do appreciate them adding the audio. It was very enlightening. 2
The Nehor Posted April 18, 2017 Posted April 18, 2017 8 hours ago, bsjkki said: No excuse for a big local story from a local newspaper. They even admit how so many others covered the story before them. "As Low's comments spread online — with news organizations including the New York Daily News, Washington Post, Associate Press, Huffington Post and others picking up the story — " Even the Arab News picked it up from the AP before them. http://www.arabnews.com/node/1084866/world I do appreciate them adding the audio. It was very enlightening. I have no idea how big the story is locally and how they split between local and non local news so I will defer to locals on this.
BlueDreams Posted April 19, 2017 Posted April 19, 2017 21 hours ago, The Nehor said: I have mixed feelings about this statement. On one hand the victim should be praised but I do not think that is the judge's job. I have known many cases where people take a case to court against someone (cheating employer or employee, abusive significant other, or whatever) and they win the case handily but are dissatisfied afterwards. The judge did not call out the person in the wrong in the courtroom and humiliate them and vindicate the victim. They seem to expect a Lifetime movie moment of victory over their broken enemy and it is not really the court's duty to provide that. Of course if people independent of the court system give praise that is great. And judges should not waste time arguing for how good the criminal is. Why does the judge feel the need to give such a speech? Just say that in light of the severity of the crime and taking into account all mitigating factors I sentence you to X and call it done. I think its more than just that. A common complaint with the judicial system with rape is that they the victim is often re-traumatized through the process. The situation can be really really difficult to get through for them. I'm not really up to speed with my judicial process with this, but I think it's a littler different than other cases that you mentioned because of dealing with severe trauma and where, often, the victim is one of the only witnesses to the event, several forms of evidence are coming directly from her/his body, cross examination can include throwing heavy doubt against the victim, and they case can often bring out a lot of ugly. I do think that courts need to find ways to help victims feel better in these circumstances and recognize that this is not the same as other court cases. With luv, BD 1
MormonVideoGame Posted April 19, 2017 Posted April 19, 2017 (edited) On 4/13/2017 at 2:38 PM, BlueDreams said: I don't think that rape should still go unpunished.... though I wish our penal system in general was more focused on actually rehabilitating these people than simply punishing them. I can just get why its hard to fathom and how easy it is to have compassion. I have a question. You are the expert, I am not. Do victims of a rape that didn't involve physical force (let's simply say non-violent) suffer severe physical and psychological trauma? The offenders deserve to be many years in prison? Like in cases were both the male and the female are together and very drunk, for example. Another question. Do 18 to 21 year old men that have sex with a 14-16 year old deserve to be punished in prison? and added to sex offenders? Like in the case of Zach Anderson for example, the alleged victim lied about her real age. http://abcnews.go.com/US/zach-anderson-19-year-registered-sex-offender-sentence/story?id=32901919 One more question. You agree that offenders need to spend at least one year in prison for touching female breast? One year is Utah's minimum. Is that about right? or too little? or too much? https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title76/Chapter5/76-5-S404.html Edited April 19, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
Calm Posted April 19, 2017 Posted April 19, 2017 Different victims react differently. All these questions would be best served imo on a case be case basis. 2
bsjkki Posted April 20, 2017 Author Posted April 20, 2017 2 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: I have a question. You are the expert, I am not. Do victims of a rape that didn't involve physical force (let's simply say non-violent) suffer severe physical and psychological trauma? The offenders deserve to be many years in prison? Like in cases were both the male and the female are together and very drunk, for example. Another question. Do 18 to 21 year old men that have sex with a 14-16 year old deserve to be punished in prison? and added to sex offenders? Like in the case of Zach Anderson for example, the alleged victim lied about her real age. http://abcnews.go.com/US/zach-anderson-19-year-registered-sex-offender-sentence/story?id=32901919 One more question. You agree that offenders need to spend at least one year in prison for touching female breast? One year is Utah's minimum. Is that about right? or too little? or too much? https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title76/Chapter5/76-5-S404.html Watch the Netflix show 13 Reasons Why and get back to me about the effects of non-violent rape. I can't watch it--but I've heard from some that it hits too close to home. I can attest that even if it is non-violent, the girls suffer..and suffer...and suffer. 1
Popular Post BlueDreams Posted April 20, 2017 Popular Post Posted April 20, 2017 4 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: I have a question. You are the expert, I am not. Do victims of a rape that didn't involve physical force (let's simply say non-violent) suffer severe physical and psychological trauma? The offenders deserve to be many years in prison? Like in cases were both the male and the female are together and very drunk, for example. Yes. Most of the rape cases that I see are "non-violent" but all rape, by definition is a form of violence. Just because the violence doesn't leave a physical mark doesn't mean that its not a form of violence. Physical and psychological trauma can still ensue...even for people who have a hard time defining what they experienced as rape. It's like saying whether bronchitis is bad if you got it from a previous cold or allergies. It's still bronchitis. The offenders and what they "deserve" will probably vary on a case-by-case basis. If it were solely up to me i would still want a judicial system in general that a) would be more lenient on non-violent crimes and b) would work more toward rehabilitation and reducing recidivism. For many people who've committed a sexual crime there is space for rehabilitation...but it's also still a form of violation/violence to another's body...and may often warrant several years in prison. No or minimal punishment gives a message of permissability. Whatever the case I would hope that rape (especially serial rape) receive higher punishments than minor drug trafiicking. Our jacked up system often doesn't do this. Quote Another question. Do 18 to 21 year old men that have sex with a 14-16 year old deserve to be punished in prison? and added to sex offenders? Like in the case of Zach Anderson for example, the alleged victim lied about her real age. http://abcnews.go.com/US/zach-anderson-19-year-registered-sex-offender-sentence/story?id=32901919 Depends the case and the details. A 14 and a 21 year old is always a form of statutory rape and the though that same age discrepancy when they're older isn't big, developmentally it's huge. They do not have the emotional capacity to have an adult relationship. If they legitimately had no clue...then no. But they would probably need to prove that they didn't know because that defense could easily become overused Quote One more question. You agree that offenders need to spend at least one year in prison for touching female breast? One year is Utah's minimum. Is that about right? or too little? or too much? https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title76/Chapter5/76-5-S404.html Case-by-case....but I definitely think it should be punished. Women's bodies are not objects for other's perusal. Having one's body used and touched without consent is a violation of personhood. That's not ok. With luv, BD 5
MormonVideoGame Posted April 20, 2017 Posted April 20, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, BlueDreams said: Case-by-case....but I definitely think it should be punished. Women's bodies are not objects for other's perusal. Having one's body used and touched without consent is a violation of personhood. That's not ok. I agree it is not ok, I agree it has to be punished (jail time), in all cases, but let's suppose that a drunk guy out of nowhere touches the breast of a female for a second, then leaves, would he deserve one year in prison? that's Utah's minimum. Not even drunk drivers get one year, first time offenders (drunk drivers) only get two days in Utah. Doesn't prison also cause trauma? 3 hours ago, BlueDreams said: Depends the case and the details. A 14 and a 21 year old is always a form of statutory rape and the though that same age discrepancy when they're older isn't big, developmentally it's huge. They do not have the emotional capacity to have an adult relationship. The age of consent 16 years in some countries (like UK and Netherlands) and even in some US states? In Germany and Sweden it's 14. You disagree with their laws? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe How is an 18 old different from a 16 year old? Doesn't it depend on the person? Aren't some 16 year old more mature than 18 year olds? In the case of Zach Anderson, the 14 year old (victim) and her mother defended the Zach Anderson (offender) because there was no evidence that the 14 was harmed. What are your thoughts? Was the victim harmed in the long-run? 3 hours ago, BlueDreams said: Yes. Most of the rape cases that I see are "non-violent" but all rape, by definition is a form of violence. Just because the violence doesn't leave a physical mark doesn't mean that its not a form of violence. Physical and psychological trauma can still ensue...even for people who have a hard time defining what they experienced as rape. It's like saying whether bronchitis is bad if you got it from a previous cold or allergies. It's still bronchitis. The offenders and what they "deserve" will probably vary on a case-by-case basis. I once heard that religion makes rape even worst. Is that true? What are your thoughts on Mormoni 9:9? Do you also agree that severe bullying can cause trauma to a teen? Do you agree that parents that like screaming to their children, and spank them can cause trauma? Do you believe bullies and angry parents need jail time? Sorry for asking too many questions, it's just that I am looking for evidence and I am trying to have a better understanding on this subject. I want to know what the psychologists think. Edited April 20, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
BlueDreams Posted April 20, 2017 Posted April 20, 2017 9 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: I agree it is not ok, I agree it has to be punished (jail time), in all cases, but let's suppose that a drunk guy out of nowhere touches the breast of a female for a second, then leaves, would he deserve one year in prison? that's Utah's minimum. Not even drunk drivers get one year, first time offenders (drunk drivers) only get two days in Utah. Doesn't prison also cause trauma? Drunk drivers who hit a pedestrian or causes a car wreck or a hit run (all with no fatalities) wouldn't get just 2 days in jail...which would be closer to what you are talking about. Again, the drunk person is still violating another person's body. Inebriation is not an okay excuse. And yes prison can cause trauma. And rapists can also have trauma from their actions. Just because they experience a trauma response to their actions doesn't somehow excuse them. Quote (1) The age of consent 16 years in some countries (like UK and Netherlands) and even in some US states? In Germany and Sweden it's 14. You disagree with their laws? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe (2)How is an 18 old different from a 16 year old? Doesn't it depend on the person? Aren't some 16 year old more mature than 18 year olds? (3)In the case of Zach Anderson, the 14 year old (victim) and her mother defended the Zach Anderson (offender) because there was no evidence that the 14 was harmed. What are your thoughts? Was the victim harmed in the long-run? 1. I'm ok with 16 not 14. So yes, I would disagree. But moreso if there are large age discrpancies (such as a 14 year old with a man in his 20's) 2. There isn't a big difference and it's not what I mentioned and most states don't have laws against that. That isn't the concern I even brought up 3. Zach shouldn't have received the punishment he did. But he is also an exception that points to a problem in the system that is generally there to safe guard against abuse. Quote (1)I once heard that religion makes rape even worst. Is that true? (2)What are your thoughts on Mormoni 9:9? 1. No, that's got to be one of the dumbest thing I've heard today (I'd say ever....but I've heard some stupid things in my life). Rape makes rape worse. 2. I agree with it, but I strongly disagree with its common inference and culture laden-definitions on both chastity and virtue. Persistent sexual abuse especially can heavily effect how victims (male or female) view themselves, interact with others particularly in relationships, and alters how they view love/how to receive it. I've seen it time and time again in my office. Quote Do you also agree that severe bullying can cause trauma to a teen? Do you agree that parents that like screaming to their children, and spank them can cause trauma? Do you believe bullies and angry parents need jail time? Lots of things can cause trauma in life. Trauma is a catch-all phrase and just because trauma is experienced doesn't mean that jail time is warranted. In both cases varying treatments and penalties can and should be implemented with the balance of thinking about what is in the best interest for the victim first and foremost. Some punishments may also inadvertently do more harm to the child. Severe bullying is a form of harassment and potentially assualt. So it can include jail time/juvenile detention centers. Again, if I could wave my magic wand and this were people who were still teens or even young adults I would prefer mandatory treatment centers where the would receive support and work through their poor relational behaviors and potentially their own abuse and emotional problems. when they're young, there's a great deal of space to alter the course of their life and reduce further problems down the road. In the case of parents, what you describe could be a form of emotional abuse and it's something that child services may nee to have reported. Jail time may not be helpful for the child because it could lead to greater trauma. Rather parenting training, monitoring/check-ins, and potentially foster parenting in extreme cases may be better options till the parent can learn how to better parent. Quote Sorry for asking too many questions, it's just that I am looking for evidence and I am trying to have a better understanding on this subject. I want to know what the psychologists think. Minor correction. I'm technically not a psychologist. I'm a licensed marriage and family associate therapist who specializes in sexual concerns. It's a difference in focus and perspective. Psychologists are generally better for severe individual problems and I'm better at systems/relational oriented problems. With luv, BD 1
Tacenda Posted April 20, 2017 Posted April 20, 2017 17 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: I have a question. You are the expert, I am not. Do victims of a rape that didn't involve physical force (let's simply say non-violent) suffer severe physical and psychological trauma? The offenders deserve to be many years in prison? Like in cases were both the male and the female are together and very drunk, for example. Another question. Do 18 to 21 year old men that have sex with a 14-16 year old deserve to be punished in prison? and added to sex offenders? Like in the case of Zach Anderson for example, the alleged victim lied about her real age. http://abcnews.go.com/US/zach-anderson-19-year-registered-sex-offender-sentence/story?id=32901919 One more question. You agree that offenders need to spend at least one year in prison for touching female breast? One year is Utah's minimum. Is that about right? or too little? or too much? https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title76/Chapter5/76-5-S404.html http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/sexual-assault-utahs-universities I listened to this last night, it might have some answers, of course I didn't listen as well because I was probably on Mormon Dialogue too much.
MormonVideoGame Posted April 20, 2017 Posted April 20, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, BlueDreams said: 1. No, that's got to be one of the dumbest thing I've heard today (I'd say ever....but I've heard some stupid things in my life). Rape makes rape worse. That is what a rape victim claims, or at least some religious ideas because the victim herself is a believer. "Our culture of purity celebrates the Virgin Mary. As a rape victim, that hurts me." https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/12/16/our-culture-of-purity-celebrates-the-virgin-mary-as-a-rape-victim-that-hurts-me/?tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.c3fb47918f77 What are your thoughts? Her case is extreme and sad, I do think the abusers deserve many years in prison, it was just awful. 7 hours ago, BlueDreams said: And yes prison can cause trauma. And rapists can also have trauma from their actions. Just because they experience a trauma response to their actions doesn't somehow excuse them. We agree, I repeat "to be punished (jail time), in all cases". However, I feel that one year in prison for "breast touching only" is a bit too much. If I am wrong to think that please tell me why? I asked a friend the same question, she told me one year in prison for that is too much. I asked her "what would you do if someone touches you?", she told me "I would just hit guy". In the case of the former Bishop, two BYU students testified at the trial that the Bishop inappropriately touched them, so he can get up to life in prison for that because he denies "wrong doing". It's very unfortunate that news articles are not giving us enough details so we can't make a conclusion about what happened. I just hope the victims had justice and the Bishop a fair sentence. 7 hours ago, BlueDreams said: Drunk drivers who hit a pedestrian or causes a car wreck or a hit run (all with no fatalities) wouldn't get just 2 days in jail...which would be closer to what you are talking about. In my opinion drunk driving is the equivalent to attempted murder. 7 hours ago, Tacenda said: http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/sexual-assault-utahs-universities I listened to this last night, it might have some answers, of course I didn't listen as well because I was probably on Mormon Dialogue too much. Thanks Tacenda Edited April 20, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
Tacenda Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 (edited) Deleted Edited April 22, 2017 by Tacenda
Kenngo1969 Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 On 4/20/2017 at 5:29 PM, MormonVideoGame said: ... In my opinion drunk driving is the equivalent to attempted murder. ... You're entitled to your [seriously wrong] opinion.
Thinking Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 On 4/12/2017 at 11:07 PM, bsjkki said: But great men...sometimes do bad things." The judge should have said, But seemingly great men sometimes do terrible things, making them not so great after all. 4
Tacenda Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 12 hours ago, Calm said: Do they offer any evidence besides storytelling? I took the link down, until I get more evidence. When I searched some things, I was astounded at what else is out there with abuse, especially in the scout program.
MormonVideoGame Posted April 22, 2017 Posted April 22, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: You're entitled to your [seriously wrong] opinion. but I don't think drunk drivers should spend years in prison. Just like I don't think that non-violent offenders deserve to spend years in prison for inappropriately touching a woman. Nor do I feel that 19 years olds deserve to be many years in prison or sex offenders for having sex with 14 year olds, thank goodness the court had some common sense in Zach Anderson case. http://abcnews.go.com/US/indiana-man-zach-anderson-avoids-25-years-sex/story?id=34585365 Punishment? Yes. Years in Prison? Only violent sexual predators deserve that in my opinion. Edited April 22, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
Glenn101 Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 7 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: Punishment? Yes. Years in Prison? Only violent sexual predators deserve that in my opinion. All sexual predators are violent. In my opinion, more effort needs to be applied towards weeding out those who are less likely to offend from the others. Each case needs to be adjudicated on an individual basis. There is no one type of punishment that fits all.
MormonVideoGame Posted April 23, 2017 Posted April 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Glenn101 said: All sexual predators are violent. In my opinion, more effort needs to be applied towards weeding out those who are less likely to offend from the others. Each case needs to be adjudicated on an individual basis. There is no one type of punishment that fits all. Was Zach Anderson a violent offender? Registering as a sex offender ruins your life. Or was Jian Ghomeshi a violent offender? Read story https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/rape-trial-in-which-complainant-was-blackout-drunk-raises-questions-about-consent i agree there is no one type of punishment that fits all, the most severe punishments should be for violent offenders in my opinion.
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