Not Much from Conference?

[stemelbow]

I haven't seen many threads from this past conference.  But I have a question and concern based on one talk.

Elder Rasband's talk Let the Holy Spirit Guide

Quote

I began to understand this as a young missionary in Scotch Plains, New Jersey. One hot July morning my companion and I felt prompted to look up a Temple Square referral. We knocked on the door of the Elwood Schaffer home. Mrs. Schaffer politely turned us away.

As she began to shut the door, I felt to do something I had never done before and have never done since! I stuck my foot in the door, and I asked, “Is there anyone else who might be interested in our message?” Her 16-year-old daughter, Marti, did have an interest and had fervently prayed for guidance just the day before. Marti met with us, and in time her mother participated in the discussions. Both of them joined the Church.

and later:

Quote

While serving as a mission president in New York City, I was with some of our missionaries in a restaurant in the Bronx. A young family came in and sat near us. They appeared golden for the gospel. I watched our missionaries as they continued to visit with me, then noticed as the family concluded their meal and slipped out the door. Then I said, “Elders, there’s a lesson here today. You saw a lovely family come into this restaurant. What should we have done?”

One of the elders spoke up quickly: “I thought about getting up and going over to talk to them. I felt the nudge, but I didn’t respond.”

“Elders,” I said, “we must always act on our first prompting. That nudge you felt was the Holy Ghost!”

Did anyone else when they heard this think, "uh...why didn't you say something?  I mean if you felt the spirit and noticed this golden family, why did you just sit back to see if any of the young missionaries would say something?  It seems you missed the opportunity to act on your first prompting and teach these missionaries a more valuable lesson...much more valuable than trying to throw guilt their way."

what do we really learn from these stories? 

edited to add link:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/04/let-the-holy-spirit-guide?lang=eng

Edited April 12, 2017 by stemelbow

[The Nehor]

I learned that the guy on my mission who wrecked his ankle sticking his foot in a door right before it slammed shut might not have been as dumb as I thought.

[RevTestament]

 

15 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Did anyone else when they heard this think, "uh...why didn't you say something?  I mean if you felt the spirit and noticed this golden family, why did you just sit back to see if any of the young missionaries would say something?  It seems you missed the opportunity to act on your first prompting and teach these missionaries a more valuable lesson...much more valuable than trying to throw guilt their way."

what do we really learn from these stories? 

edited to add link:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/04/let-the-holy-spirit-guide?lang=eng

I don't think I understand what you are driving at here. Clearly, the point of the story is that he failed to follow the prompting of the Spirit and missed an opportunity to teach this to the young missionaries. Thus, he lives with the regret of his failure. It is an example of what can happen when we don't follow the spirit. Should every story teach only what happens when we do follow the Spirit?

I didn't call my grandmother much when she was alive, but when she was ill, I had a prompting to call her, which I basically ignored thinking well I'll see her at Christmas kind of thing. She died later that week, thus my failure to follow the prompting caused me to miss the last opportunity to speak with her and tell her how much I loved her, thank her, etc, while she was ill. That failure has stayed with me, and bothered me ever since. I think that is the point of Rasband's story.

[Bernard Gui]

30 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

what do we really learn from these stories? 

edited to add link:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/04/let-the-holy-spirit-guide?lang=eng

Quote

 

We can safely say that that one time in the restaurant would not have been the "golden" family's only chance for exaltation. God will not condemn someone because a missionary or a member failed to follow a prompting. It was a teachable moment for some young elders and now for the whole Church. It is a valid lesson.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[stemelbow]

12 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

 

I don't think I understand what you are driving at here. Clearly, the point of the story is that he failed to follow the prompting of the Spirit and missed an opportunity to teach this to the young missionaries.

Surely I missed that which was so clear.  Wherein did he say anything fo the sort?  it seems he used it to teach the young missionaries. 

 

12 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Thus, he lives with the regret of his failure.

He does?  He didn't express that. 

12 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

It is an example of what can happen when we don't follow the spirit. Should every story teach only what happens when we do follow the Spirit?

I didn't call my grandmother much when she was alive, but when she was ill, I had a prompting to call her, which I basically ignored thinking well I'll see her at Christmas kind of thing. She died later that week, thus my failure to follow the prompting caused me to miss the last opportunity to speak with her and tell her how much I loved her, thank her, etc, while she was ill. That failure has stayed with me, and bothered me ever since. I think that is the point of Rasband's story.

You'll see your grandmother again.  Not a big deal.  The blip of time that results in you not having spoken to her to the end of your life will be meaningless in eternity.  Rasband on the other hand didn't seem bothered. 

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

We can safely say that that one time in the restaurant would not have been the "golden" family's only chance for exaltation.

Well fewf! then.  I think we can also safely say, in like manner, the prompting for him to stick his foot in the door was not from God since God knew that these ladies would have joined anywho. 

2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

God will not condemn someone because a missionary or a member failed to follow a prompting. It was a teachable moment for some young elders and now for the whole Church. It is a valid lesson.

Ok.  if you say so. 

[Gray]

Quote

“Elders,” I said, “we must always act on our first prompting. That nudge you felt was the Holy Ghost!”

This needs a huge asterisk next to it. People can get some crazy ideas as a "first prompting." Doubly so if someone is struggling with mental illness. 

[stemelbow]

Just now, Gray said:

This needs a huge asterisk next to it. People can get some crazy ideas as a "first prompting." Doubly so if someone is struggling with mental illness. 

Oh come on:

"The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that if you will listen to the first promptings, you will get it right nine times out of ten"

The footnote for this is to Truman Madsen's book Joseph Smith the Prophet

Curious if there is a first hand source.  Anyone know?

But ultimately I agree.  People get crazy ideas with their first promptings.  I know 'cause I'm one of those people. 

[HappyJackWagon]

The idea that the first thought that pops into our heads is always inspiration is rather dangerous.

Case in point- Sticking your foot in the door of a woman you don't know, who has already stated she wasn't interested, is a very aggressive move. If someone...anyone did that to my wife I'd do my best not to punch the guy, but I'd definitely call the police. This should not be held up as a good example. I'm happy that in this one case things seemed to have worked out, but it is beyond rude to ignore what a person says and then prevent them from closing their door. Does Elder Rasband need to be taught that "No, means no."?

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The idea that the first thought that pops into our heads is always inspiration is rather dangerous.

Case in point- Sticking your foot in the door of a woman you don't know, who has already stated she wasn't interested, is a very aggressive move. If someone...anyone did that to my wife I'd do my best not to punch the guy, but I'd definitely call the police. This should not be held up as a good example. I'm happy that in this one case things seemed to have worked out, but it is beyond rude to ignore what a person says and then prevent them from closing their door. Does Elder Rasband need to be taught that "No, means no."?

Yeah, it was basically rape.

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, it was basically rape.

It was rude, but it worked out. I know back ont he mission, there were tons of instances wherein my companion and/or I were rude and it worked out ok.  In most cases it was encouraged to be a bit rude.  I think that's toned down some these days though.  I hate to think of thousands of missionaries stuffing their feet in peoples doors as they are closing them, now.  I guess we'll see.  I"ll be heading out with the missionaries within the next week.  I'll see how ti plays out. 

[stemelbow]

huh, I was reminded of a time when companion and I returned home to a message on our phone machine that threatened us for talking to man's wife and leaving a Book of Mormon with her.  He didn't leave us any infor for us to identify who it was and we had no idea because as I recall that day we were tracting and tossing Book of Mormon's or whatever we had to anyone who we could get to take them.  I wonder if there was more to the story, as in we were rude to her and didn't realize it.  Ah well....those were the days. 

[HappyJackWagon]

21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, it was basically rape.

I didn't say that, did I? But the principle of "no" and agency are the same.

I'm curious if you would find it appropriate if a traveling salesman, or maybe a Jehovas Witness missionary did this same thing to you or your mother, sister, significant other...whatever? Is there any instance in life where you would see that as appropriate behavior if it happened to you or a loved one?

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I didn't say that, did I? But the principle of "no" and agency are the same.

I'm curious if you would find it appropriate if a traveling salesman, or maybe a Jehovas Witness missionary did this same thing to you or your mother, sister, significant other...whatever? Is there any instance in life where you would see that as appropriate behavior if it happened to you or a loved one?

"No means no" is almost always used in the context of some level of sexual assault. If you want to play dumb and act like my recognizing that is misinterpreting you go ahead but do not expect me to buy your faux innocence.

I would probably slam the door on their foot.

Edited April 12, 2017 by The Nehor

[HappyJackWagon]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

"No means no" is almost always used in the context of some level of sexual assault. If you want to play dumb and act like my recognizing that is misinterpreting you go ahead but do not expect me to buy your faux innocence.

I would probably slam the door on their foot.

Good. So you agree that the behavior was inappropriate.

[The Nehor]

Just now, HappyJackWagon said:

Good. So you agree that the behavior was inappropriate.

Normally, but I am okay with doing inappropriate things when prompted by the Spirit.

[juliann]

I love Elder Rasband.  Within the context and knowing it was him, it is a great story.  This is the most important piece, however. which is emphasized with an exclamation point,  " I felt to do something I had never done before and have never done since!"  So I don't think it is fair to omit that. I have certainly been prompted, or whatever you want to call it, to do what I would not normally do.

My most memorable one was giving some oranges on my tree to a family who had helped me out after my husband died. I had a freshly picked bag and had forgotten to bring it with me when I would be driving near their home. It was horribly inconvenient and certainly not necessary to get back in the car at a stressful time....another day or two wouldn't have made one whit of a difference. But for some reason I felt like I had to get it there....I just dumped the bag on the porch because I was so frazzled. So months later, the woman bears her testimony and talked about the rough financial time they were going through at that time. She had prayed that day, she could make do but she was heartsick that she couldn't afford to buy her children fruit. And she opened the door to a bag of oranges. 

[bluebell]

51 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

huh, I was reminded of a time when companion and I returned home to a message on our phone machine that threatened us for talking to man's wife and leaving a Book of Mormon with her.  He didn't leave us any infor for us to identify who it was and we had no idea because as I recall that day we were tracting and tossing Book of Mormon's or whatever we had to anyone who we could get to take them.  I wonder if there was more to the story, as in we were rude to her and didn't realize it.  Ah well....those were the days. 

I remember one time on my mission my comp and i were stuck at our apartment so were calling less actives on the member directory.  Most weren't home so we usually just left basic messages saying who we were, the name of the person we were trying to reach, and our phone number.  

In the midst of doing this we got a call back that I answered and the man on the other end was furious.  He was mad because his name was on the do not contact list and we had called him.  I tried to tell him that the only way to make sure that no one ever contacted him again was to have his name taken off of the roles.  I offered to give him the bishop's contact info but he wouldn't listen.  Then I tried to tell him that there was no permanent record of who wanted no contact and that because missionaries changed and ward directories got re-printed that it was impossible to guarantee no one would call him again, but he would have none of it.

So then i asked him for his name so that i could at least make a note in our member list not to contact him and he got even more mad that i didn't know who he was!  I tried to tell him that we had called a lot of people in the last half an hour but he refused to tell me his name and ended up hanging up on me.

I learned that day that some people are not rational!  

[stemelbow]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Normally, but I am okay with doing inappropriate things when prompted by the Spirit.

God: "....wait for it...wait for it....NOW.

Hah...he did decide to stuff his foot in the door.  Good show ol' chum."

Angel:  "but couldn't we have just prompted him to ask before she started to shut the door?"

God:  "Hey I have to get these servers to do inappropriate things sometimes to test their mettle.  Where do you think polygamy came from?  How about the priesthood ban?  MMM?  Killign those poor native americans in the Utah territory?  It's good they do inappropriate things as I prompt them so they can learn to do stuff when I prompt them.  It's more important I prompt than the outcome. "

Angel:  "I see.  So, we're all better served if these servers do inappropriate things on your whim rather than really help people?"

God:  "yep.  Helping schmelpin.  they can do that on their own time."

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I remember one time on my mission my comp and i were stuck at our apartment so were calling less actives on the member directory.  Most weren't home so we usually just left basic messages saying who we were, the name of the person we were trying to reach, and our phone number.  

In the midst of doing this we got a call back that I answered and the man on the other end was furious.  He was mad because his name was on the do not contact list and we had called him.  I tried to tell him that the only way to make sure that no one ever contacted him again was to have his name taken off of the roles.  I offered to give him the bishop's contact info but he wouldn't listen.  Then I tried to tell him that there was no permanent record of who wanted no contact and that because missionaries changed and ward directories got re-printed that it was impossible to guarantee no one would call him again, but he would have none of it.

So then i asked him for his name so that i could at least make a note in our member list not to contact him and he got even more mad that i didn't know who he was!  I tried to tell him that we had called a lot of people in the last half an hour but he refused to tell me his name and ended up hanging up on me.

I learned that day that some people are not rational!  

Sounded fun.

He was likely a rational person but was obviously upset and thus was not being rational at that time

[stemelbow]

16 minutes ago, juliann said:

I love Elder Rasband.  Within the context and knowing it was him, it is a great story.  This is the most important piece, however. which is emphasized with an exclamation point,  " I felt to do something I had never done before and have never done since!"  So I don't think it is fair to omit that. I have certainly been prompted, or whatever you want to call it, to do what I would not normally do.

My most memorable one was giving some oranges on my tree to a family who had helped me out after my husband died. I had a freshly picked bag and had forgotten to bring it with me when I would be driving near their home. It was horribly inconvenient and certainly not necessary to get back in the car at a stressful time....another day or two wouldn't have made one whit of a difference. But for some reason I felt like I had to get it there....I just dumped the bag on the porch because I was so frazzled. So months later, the woman bears her testimony and talked about the rough financial time they were going through at that time. She had prayed that day, she could make do but she was heartsick that she couldn't afford to buy her children fruit. And she opened the door to a bag of oranges. 

There's a lady in our ward who talks about Elder Rasband like he's an immortal saint sent among us as an act of God's grace.  I think she knew him before he was called to an important Church calling or something.   I'm sure he's nice, but your story is about 10 times better than his--both in spiritual dissemination and lessons learned.  thanks for sharing. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by stemelbow

[stemelbow]

Aren't some of us just plain better off with a considered measured approach?  I question whether it's a good idea to teach a whole host of people that we need to act on our first promptings always.  Some people seem better served not to go that route, even if some are better served going that route. 

I question whether this is appropriate advice for the whole fo the Church.  Any thoughts? 

[Gray]

20 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Aren't some of us just plain better off with a considered measured approach?  I question whether it's a good idea to teach a whole host of people that we need to act on our first promptings always.  Some people seem better served not to go that route, even if some are better served going that route. 

I question whether this is appropriate advice for the whole fo the Church.  Any thoughts? 

Yeah, it's really not good advice for a large group of people. Following your first instinct can get you into trouble, even if you think you're in tune with the spirit. 

[Duncan]

I was thinking that too about Elder Rasband, not every thought that comes into your head is from the Holy Ghost, I mean all kinds of bad stuff could happen that God would prefer not happen

[juliann]

Stem, would you have them teach not to? This was what, a 10-15 minute talk? He used two examples, one an on the spot and the other a less time sensitive situation. When I think of promptings, other than the danger type stuff, I think of it as more of a nagging thing not a split second decision kind of thing.  United hasn't made it any easier to look forward to navigating a trip to DC/Maryland to see my elderly and disabled uncle who took me and other nieces into his home for a summer after graduating from HS so I work in the city. It had been nagging at me for months. I'm thinking it is probably a prompting. So 7 hrs (plane change and crappier planes at our local airport to avoid the big horror of an airport),  a rental car at Baltimore to avoid DC airports....  The only good news is I picked Delta. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by juliann