How do you think the temple recommend requirements will change 50 years from now?

[stemelbow]

19 hours ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

If a bishop asked me that question, my first response would be..."define pornography". 

And then, define saw, depending one what kind screwy idea is meant by pornography. 

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

For gawkers that is an extreme example.  What if a gawker was your inactive family member that wants to support you while you go through this ritual for the first time.  Lots of scenarios that I can imagine that would work, it would have to be on respectful grounds of course with certain limits and exceptions. 

I disagree. Still do not want non-member or non-recommend holders in Endowment sessions.

9 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

What do you mean you don't trust people to be self aware enough to exclude themselves?  Are you implying that someones worthiness might somehow contaminate everyone else?  If so, do you feel like the sacrament you partake of is somehow contaminated when the priests blessing it were breaking the WoW the night before?  What about a baptism?  Last time I checked, the church doesn't consider any ordinances invalid just because someone might judge the person performing them as unworthy.  

Am I suggesting sin is often contagious? Yes. Those stories in scripture about wicked fools wearing the pretense of being faithful leading others to sin are not just randomly there.

If someone unworthy to perform an ordinance does so anyways I will be fine. They are damning themselves. The scriptures make it clear we are not to knowingly let others do that to themselves.

13 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

As for people feeling unworthy themselves thats because we have very harmful rhetoric about this idea of worthiness in our church.  A few talks by GAs could take us in the right direction. 

I disagree. I know it is not the cause in the cases I know of. The beginning of the LDS path to understanding the atonement of Christ's importance is that we are nothing. We are sinners who have fallen short. That needs to get through. Until you understand that you are stuck. Some do immediately on learning it. Some try their hardest to live the laws of God and come up short repeatedly and realize how badly they need help. Some have other epiphanies. Some delude themselves into thinking they are doing better then they are and never achieve humility. Some claim the whole thing is too harsh and the gospel should whisper sweet nothings in their ears and never be unpleasant. There are probably hundreds of other paths.

Still, a rule of thumb I have learned is that the gospel teachings I find uncomfortable or unpleasant are the ones I need to focus on. I have found talks on worthiness in the past unpleasant and judgmental mostly because I was not worthy or putting real effort into trying to remedy the situation. If I were among the most debased of sinners that ever lived trying desperately to repent I believe I would have found that teaching more palatable than when I just could not be bothered to try. I am also glad I did not die at that time as I probably would have ended up in hell.

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Am I suggesting sin is often contagious? Yes. Those stories in scripture about wicked fools wearing the pretense of being faithful leading others to sin are not just randomly there.

If someone unworthy to perform an ordinance does so anyways I will be fine. They are damning themselves. The scriptures make it clear we are not to knowingly let others do that to themselves.

C Those stories represent the fears and biases of the writers, I will point out these writers also thought that other races, female menstrual cycles, cultures, were impure and contagious.  Lots of fear of the other, this is purely tribalism and bigotry, not an actual contagion.  

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I disagree. I know it is not the cause in the cases I know of. The beginning of the LDS path to understanding the atonement of Christ's importance is that we are nothing. We are sinners who have fallen short. That needs to get through. Until you understand that you are stuck. Some do immediately on learning it. Some try their hardest to live the laws of God and come up short repeatedly and realize how badly they need help. Some have other epiphanies. Some delude themselves into thinking they are doing better then they are and never achieve humility. Some claim the whole thing is too harsh and the gospel should whisper sweet nothings in their ears and never be unpleasant. There are probably hundreds of other paths.

Still, a rule of thumb I have learned is that the gospel teachings I find uncomfortable or unpleasant are the ones I need to focus on. I have found talks on worthiness in the past unpleasant and judgmental mostly because I was not worthy or putting real effort into trying to remedy the situation. If I were among the most debased of sinners that ever lived trying desperately to repent I believe I would have found that teaching more palatable than when I just could not be bothered to try. I am also glad I did not die at that time as I probably would have ended up in hell.

All of the things you mention are influenced by teachings and theology that is highly flawed and makes me sad to think that our tradition has contributed to these negative ideas about a person's relationship to the divine or worthiness or the view of sin and nature and dying and going to hell.  All of these concepts have their origins in earlier Christian tradition, for example the Calvinists belief in our being of a sinful nature, unworthy to approach God.  

I see things very differently now, you are already worthy of God and God's love, you should never think that anything you can do will take that away.  God of course wants us to be the best people we can be, but God already loves and accepts you as a worthy unique and wonderful creature and creation that deserves respect.  Mormon culture often teaches us to be hardest on ourselves.  I invite you to listen to this most recent podcast on the concept of self compassion, its episode 37.  

https://secularbuddhism.com/podcast/

 

[JLHPROF]

Temple recommends 50 years from now?

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

 

 

[BlueDreams]

19 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

The initiatory is unique, not a lot of room.  I can't imagine a scenario where crouds of people would be trying to view someone's ritual.  Sounds like an extreme example.  

Everything would of course be respecting the wishes of the individuals involved.  

A family sealing could invite anyone to the ceremony, but a person off the street couldn't just show up without the permission of the family.  

I'm not imagining crowds. But it's not extreme to assume, if you open all ordinances to be open to public viewing, they would want to view the ordinances that happen on the lower level, not just the endowment and sealings. And honestly, I'm not a fan of anyone watching most the ordinances. This isn't a showcase moment and I prefer the temple being separate from the world. 

I have mixed feelings about sealings. 

With luv,

BD

[JLHPROF]

20 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

The initiatory is unique, not a lot of room.  I can't imagine a scenario where crouds of people would be trying to view someone's ritual.  Sounds like an extreme example. 

Personally, I think if the members had their way the entire initiatory and garment portion would get dropped.
We've already altered most of it far from the original form and people still find it strange.

Personally, if time was allowed to wind on I could easily see the endowment reduced to the movie and the sealing ceremony.
 

[Ahab]

18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Personally, I think if the members had their way the entire initiatory and garment portion would get dropped.
We've already altered most of it far from the original form and people still find it strange.

Personally, if time was allowed to wind on I could easily see the endowment reduced to the movie and the sealing ceremony.
 

The valet I could easily do without, like Matthew Crawley could do without one in Downton Abbey, but like him I also don't necessarily want to put somebody out of a job. 

The blessings I like, so maybe the valets could just do that.

[ksfisher]

5 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

How?  I'm not proposing a stop to the ordinances in temples. 

No, but you are proposing to make them a spectacle instead of a sacred experience. 

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Personally, I think if the members had their way the entire initiatory and garment portion would get dropped.
We've already altered most of it far from the original form and people still find it strange.

Personally, if time was allowed to wind on I could easily see the endowment reduced to the movie and the sealing ceremony.
 

The initiatory is actually my favorite part, although all four stages, baptism, initiatory, endowment, and sealing are intertwined.  If one was dropped the other three would be lose meaning.

[ksfisher]

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I see things very differently now, you are already worthy of God and God's love, you should never think that anything you can do will take that away.  God of course wants us to be the best people we can be, but God already loves and accepts you as a worthy unique and wonderful creature and creation that deserves respect.  Mormon culture often teaches us to be hardest on ourselves.

 

I with you where you say that God loves us as we are now.  But, does God really accept a murderer or an adulterer or a child molester as a "worthy unique and wonderful creature?"   Or does He love the sinner but command them to repent?

Agreed that many people are harder on themselves than they should be.

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Personally, I think if the members had their way the entire initiatory and garment portion would get dropped.
We've already altered most of it far from the original form and people still find it strange.

Personally, if time was allowed to wind on I could easily see the endowment reduced to the movie and the sealing ceremony.
 

Thats certainly possible.  Perhaps they could go back to some of the Kirtland rituals?  Not the ones with the bathtubs and whiskey, but perhaps the washing of feet, or something like that I might find interesting.  I'm open to a lot of change though, remember even the endowment was not originally performed for the deceased.  

[hope_for_things]

31 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

No, but you are proposing to make them a spectacle instead of a sacred experience. 

Really?  How did I do that?  Do you think baptisms are sacred?  What about baby blessings?  

What you're saying is essentially that a person who doesn't belong to the club will somehow magically take something sacred and make it not sacred.  I don't buy it.  I love my non-member friends, family, and everyone.  Why would having one of them present for my wedding ruin the sacred nature of it?  I think it would be MORE sacred with them present.  

[hope_for_things]

26 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I with you where you say that God loves us as we are now.  But, does God really accept a murderer or an adulterer or a child molester as a "worthy unique and wonderful creature?"   Or does He love the sinner but command them to repent?

Agreed that many people are harder on themselves than they should be.

Good question, are there limits to God's love?  Personally I don't think so.  Perhaps the best answer could be found by looking at the life of Jesus and how he treated sinners.  We are all called on to repent, which means to change, or turn away.  

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Perhaps they could go back to some of the Kirtland rituals?  Not the ones with the bathtubs and whiskey, but perhaps the washing of feet, or something like that

Washing of feet was never stopped.  Just moved up the ordinance ranks to the highest point.

[JLHPROF]

38 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The initiatory is actually my favorite part, although all four stages, baptism, initiatory, endowment, and sealing are intertwined.  If one was dropped the other three would be lose meaning.

I agree with you.
The problem is we have repeatedly altered the form of the ordinances based on member feedback and the form of the initiatory is still one that seems strange to members going through for the first time even though it was completely overhauled a few years back..
You know as well as I do people complain about wearing the garments, and the elements of the initiatory are among the most commonly mocked in the public eye.
If we read the history of the evolution of the temple ordinances in this dispensation virtually every change made came as an issue of making members more comfortable and stemming their complaints.  That's in the history.

More complaining and agitating for a more comfortable scenario will undoubtedly result in more changes in the future.
 

[SeekerB]

On 4/12/2017 at 8:52 AM, Darren10 said:

Forget future robot servants, I currently call my dogs stupid all the time.  

Don't have a dog anymore, so I have to call my cats stupid. I do it nicely so they think I am complimenting them.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

C Those stories represent the fears and biases of the writers, I will point out these writers also thought that other races, female menstrual cycles, cultures, were impure and contagious.  Lots of fear of the other, this is purely tribalism and bigotry, not an actual contagion.  

All of the things you mention are influenced by teachings and theology that is highly flawed and makes me sad to think that our tradition has contributed to these negative ideas about a person's relationship to the divine or worthiness or the view of sin and nature and dying and going to hell.  All of these concepts have their origins in earlier Christian tradition, for example the Calvinists belief in our being of a sinful nature, unworthy to approach God.  

I see things very differently now, you are already worthy of God and God's love, you should never think that anything you can do will take that away.  God of course wants us to be the best people we can be, but God already loves and accepts you as a worthy unique and wonderful creature and creation that deserves respect.  Mormon culture often teaches us to be hardest on ourselves.  I invite you to listen to this most recent podcast on the concept of self compassion, its episode 37.  

https://secularbuddhism.com/podcast/

 

I disagree with almost everything you said.

[hope_for_things]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Washing of feet was never stopped.  Just moved up the ordinance ranks to the highest point.

Right, and combined with a ritual that while I'd like to hope there were good intentions for its original innovation, from what I've read about it, I find much of it to be off putting to me personally.  

[hope_for_things]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I disagree with almost everything you said.

To each his own.  I've changed a lot in the past few years, not sure what planted the seeds that led to how I've changed, but I'm grateful for the journey.  

[JLHPROF]

28 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Right, and combined with a ritual that while I'd like to hope there were good intentions for its original innovation, from what I've read about it, I find much of it to be off putting to me personally.

I find nothing off putting about the second anointing ceremonies.
But can see how people today would take issue with them.

 

[Darren10]

2 hours ago, SeekerB said:

Don't have a dog anymore, so I have to call my cats stupid. I do it nicely so they think I am complimenting them.

Lol. It's all in the tone, isn't it.

[Garden Girl]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Personally, I think if the members had their way the entire initiatory and garment portion would get dropped.
We've already altered most of it far from the original form and people still find it strange.

Personally, if time was allowed to wind on I could easily see the endowment reduced to the movie and the sealing ceremony.
 

I love the initiatory... as an ordinance worker every week for six years, it was my favorite.  You'd be surprised apparently at the Spirit felt as the sisters received the initiatory blessings on behalf of their deceased family.  One sister that used to attend every week would kiss each card upon completion of the ordinances.  Tears filled her eyes more than once when the Spirit was particularly strong.  It was a real work of love for her family... 

And, I can remember 21 years ago how I felt when the initiatory blessings were pronounced for me...  sometimes when I attend the temple I take time to do some initiatories just to hear the blessings again... 

GG

[ksfisher]

5 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Right, and combined with a ritual that while I'd like to hope there were good intentions for its original innovation, from what I've read about it, I find much of it to be off putting to me personally.  

So did Peter until the Savior explained why it was necessary that He wash Peter's feet.

[probablyHagoth7]

On 4/11/2017 at 11:29 PM, Ouagadougou said:

...How do you think temple recommend requirements will change (if at all) over the next 50 years?  

If temples are still a thing, perhaps interview might be streamlined to two questions:

1. Do you love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind?

2. Do you love your neighbor as yourself?

[HappyJackWagon]

18 hours ago, ksfisher said:

The initiatory is actually my favorite part, although all four stages, baptism, initiatory, endowment, and sealing are intertwined.  If one was dropped the other three would be lose meaning.

I hear a lot of people say that but I'm not sure I get it. There is much I don't understand about the initiatory. Particularly, why are there so many physical blessings given when it is being done by proxy for the dead. The focus on physical blessings is very strange for individuals who will presumably receive perfected bodies.

The endowment could be shortened significantly by simply reducing redundancy. It has been altered so much already, I think they could whittle the non-essentials down to 1 hour pretty easily.

RE- the original question about TR interview questions.

Interviews will be conducted electronically (equivalent of email survey) and then the recommend will be uploaded directly to the individual's electronic profile. When the individual walks into the temple there won't be  a need for a desk because facial recognition or EMF electronic scan will recognize the person/electronic profile.