Ahab Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Ahab, I think we've reached that place where we're just going to have to agree to disagree Why do people say that? I hate that phrase. You may choose to disagree with me but I don't think I should have to agree to you disagreeing with me. That sounds as though I am condoning your disagreement, as if I approve of it somehow. I can not force you to agree with me but I will not agree that I want you to disagree with me or what I have said.
california boy Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Maestrophil said: Perhaps it is the focus on the sin that taints the "love the sinner, hate the sin" line? Aren't we all advised to "Love the sinner"? And are not we all sinners? When people say they love me, I never hear "love the sinner, hate the sin"? Why not? I have sins that are just as detrimental in keeping me from God's presence as any other sin (as any sin will keep you out, right?). That said, I can see how saying "love the sinner, hate the sin" regarding certain 'sinners' and not others can create a feeling of judgement and superiority in and of itself. I am trying to espouse this with my own kids - such as my son who is inactive and smokes pot and drinks. I don't want him to feel 'I love you - inspite of" but rather, "I love you!!" This line "Love the sinner, hate the sin" has become a mantra that has almost reach canonization proportions. I personally find it a very false idea of the teachings of Christ. He never said anything like this. He only said. Love the sinner. There is no condition added to that statement. I would rather the mantra be "Love the sinner, because we are all sinners." But self righteous people seem to need to add "hate the sin" as if they are so perfect that they are graciously overlooking some sin that they don't have. 4
Jeanne Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 Just now, california boy said: This line "Love the sinner, hate the sin" has become a mantra that has almost reach canonization proportions. I personally find it a very false idea of the teachings of Christ. He never said anything like this. He only said. Love the sinner. There is no condition added to that statement. I would rather the mantra be "Love the sinner, because we are all sinners." But self righteous people seem to need to add "hate the sin" as if they are so perfect that they are graciously overlooking some sin that they don't have. I agree. It is like saying to someone with a visible sin, we love you...but love you less than others. 1
Jeanne Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: Are we Related? Were you are the Cake Family reunion? I know I am confused...care to adopt Jeanne Cake?? 1
Popular Post cinepro Posted March 21, 2017 Popular Post Posted March 21, 2017 16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: An extraordinary video for the LDS Church to release, and quite a Christian approach at that. This is very important, even though it will never be enough for the anti-Mormon crowd. I agree. I saw an anti-Mormon suggest making a copy of the video with past anti-gay statements from Church leaders superimposed over it. It's an odd reaction for people who spend their time insisting (hoping?) the Church will change. Videos (and "developments") like this are a good litmus test to show who really wants the Church to actually change and get better on these issues, compared to those who find comfort and satisfaction from being able to criticize and mock the traditional LDS teachings. Sure, I'll criticize those things I see worthy of criticism, but I whole-heartedly support and appreciate improvement when it comes. 6
Ahab Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 6 minutes ago, california boy said: This line "Love the sinner, hate the sin" has become a mantra that has almost reach canonization proportions. I personally find it a very false idea of the teachings of Christ. He never said anything like this. He only said. Love the sinner. There is no condition added to that statement. I would rather the mantra be "Love the sinner, because we are all sinners." But self righteous people seem to need to add "hate the sin" as if they are so perfect that they are graciously overlooking some sin that they don't have. Whether you like the idea or not, we are supposed to hate sin so much that we want to turn away from it. Sin isn't something that we are supposed to like or be comfortable with. We should actually hate it. Abhor it. Be disgusted by it. Think that it is a very bad thing. And yet, yes, we are supposed to love everybody. We are even commanded to love everybody. Men and women. Adults and children. Everybody. So you figure it out, Einstein. Clearly we are supposed to have a love/hate relationship with everybody everywhere.
cinepro Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Ahab said: Why do people say that? I hate that phrase. You may choose to disagree with me but I don't think I should have to agree to you disagreeing with me. That sounds as though I am condoning your disagreement, as if I approve of it somehow. I can not force you to agree with me but I will not agree that I want you to disagree with me or what I have said. It's a short way to say "It's obviously unlikely that either of us will convince the other of our position, and the conversation seems to be quickly veering down a path of one or both of us acting like jerks and poisoning whatever good will there may be between us, or at best meandering as a pointless and redundant exercise in conversation, so let's find something else to talk about..." Most people are able to figure that out from the context. Edited March 21, 2017 by cinepro
Ahab Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 7 minutes ago, cinepro said: It's a short way to say "It's obviously unlikely that either of us will convince the other of our position, and the conversation seems to be quickly veering down a path of one or both of us acting like jerks and poisoning whatever good will there may be between us, or at best meandering as pointless and redundant exercise in conversations, so let's find something else to talk about..." Most people are able to figure that out from the context. I'd rather that people just say that if that is what is meant. But agree to disagree? No, not me. I don't think so.
california boy Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 48 minutes ago, Rain said: I've been thinking about you a lot the last couple of days. I can't imagine how hard it must have been to feel how you have felt the last 17 years. I know it must have been incredibly tough for you. Coming from the other side, though with different issues, and with 2 family members and a number of friends I wonder if you have ever expressed to them that you felt shunned? I ask this because I wonder if they saw things very differently and if they did if maybe understanding their side if there couldn't be some healing for both of you. For several years I've had one family member constantly swipe at us. I knew she was doing it out of pain because of things going on in her former marriage among other things. So I hung on. At one point I suggested she look into some help. I got an earful over that and then silence to every time I reached out to her in little ways and more important ways. I've heard over and over again about VTs and others are constant pains in the neck coming every single month when not wanted. I began to wonder if this was how my loved one felt about me. Then I was in the middle of my own battle where I was barely staying above water. Just texting this family member and getting nothing back took everything I had. I finally let this loved one know that I didn't want to be the hated person that would not stop bugging her. I still loved her and wanted contact, but I recognized I couldn't force contact on her part, nor did I want to. I let her know I was going to stop contacting her, but if she wanted to keep that bond I was there for her. She has never contacted me back. I have often wondered if she understood that the way my husband understood me on his mission. I knew I would marry him some day. I wrote to him while I was out that I needed to concentrate on my own mission so I was going to stop writing him, but wanted to see him when I got home. He took that as a dear John letter and was engaged when I got home. So I've often wondered if she thought I was saying that I didn't want to hear from her. I feel stuck a bit because I don't want her to feel that way, but I also don't want her to wish I would leave her alone. So I wonder what your family would say if you asked them about this. Again I can imagine it would be a very difficult thing to do and maybe it would be worse to find out why they acted the way they did. But on this side I just hope that it would be healing. I have always tried to be understanding towards how my family has treated me. I felt that it took me a very long time to deal with the fact that I was gay. Why would I expect my family to instantly understand what that was like and how to deal with it. Fortunately I did have one sister from day one that reached out to me and always showed nothing but kindness to me. I knew she loved me even if I was gay. As I mentioned, in the past couple of years things have begun to soften. My family knew exactly what they were doing. Some have even recently apologized to me which I found almost overwhelming. One just last week. I talked to her about this very thing. My ex wife has also stayed close to me since the very beginning. She has been the one that defended me when others would not. She is the one that told my dad to knock of the constant preaching to me about how sinful I was. Fortunately he listened to her. I was at the point that I thought I would not be able to ever talk to him again. Yet she is the one that was most hurt by the ultimate divorce. She realized that I was just as much a victim as she was and never harbored bad feelings towards me. And she knew that it was in the best interest of our kids to remain friends. So my situation is a little different than yours. I have always tried to reach out to my family when I could. And I tried to not take it personally when I was not included in family activities. The truth is, I have a very wonderful and healthy life with someone I deeply love. His mother was always kind to me even though she was a born again Christian. I think she was floored one evening when we started talking about the Bible and how much I knew. I taught seminary for 5 or 6 years. Unfortunately she died unexpectedly a couple of years ago. So I have found my own family amongst my friends. It is not uncommon in the gay community. We form our own family, which supports us and loves us. People we can count on in times of trouble when there is no family to lean on. My situation is hardly unique as you can imagine. This is not just a Mormon thing. Did I miss my family? Of course. Intently. But I can't make them do anything that they don't want to do. I can only control my actions and how I respond to what is handed to me. I know this may sound odd. But I am grateful to God for being gay. It has taught me so much about compassion, love, charity and giving of yourself even when it is difficult. Personally, I think there is a reason why there are gay people. Perhaps my family needed me to be gay. Perhaps I needed to be gay. 2
california boy Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 18 minutes ago, Ahab said: Whether you like the idea or not, we are supposed to hate sin so much that we want to turn away from it. Sin isn't something that we are supposed to like or be comfortable with. We should actually hate it. Abhor it. Be disgusted by it. Think that it is a very bad thing. And yet, yes, we are supposed to love everybody. We are even commanded to love everybody. Men and women. Adults and children. Everybody. So you figure it out, Einstein. Clearly we are supposed to have a love/hate relationship with everybody everywhere. I think the point is we should hate the sin THAT IS IN US. Other people's sins are no concern of ours. The world can be full of sin. So is the people in the church. It shouldn't effect how we live our lives or how we treat others. 2
Rain Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 7 minutes ago, california boy said: I have always tried to be understanding towards how my family has treated me. I felt that it took me a very long time to deal with the fact that I was gay. Why would I expect my family to instantly understand what that was like and how to deal with it. Fortunately I did have one sister from day one that reached out to me and always showed nothing but kindness to me. I knew she loved me even if I was gay. As I mentioned, in the past couple of years things have begun to soften. My family knew exactly what they were doing. Some have even recently apologized to me which I found almost overwhelming. One just last week. I talked to her about this very thing. My ex wife has also stayed close to me since the very beginning. She has been the one that defended me when others would not. She is the one that told my dad to knock of the constant preaching to me about how sinful I was. Fortunately he listened to her. I was at the point that I thought I would not be able to ever talk to him again. Yet she is the one that was most hurt by the ultimate divorce. She realized that I was just as much a victim as she was and never harbored bad feelings towards me. And she knew that it was in the best interest of our kids to remain friends. So my situation is a little different than yours. I have always tried to reach out to my family when I could. And I tried to not take it personally when I was not included in family activities. The truth is, I have a very wonderful and healthy life with someone I deeply love. His mother was always kind to me even though she was a born again Christian. I think she was floored one evening when we started talking about the Bible and how much I knew. I taught seminary for 5 or 6 years. Unfortunately she died unexpectedly a couple of years ago. So I have found my own family amongst my friends. It is not uncommon in the gay community. We form our own family, which supports us and loves us. People we can count on in times of trouble when there is no family to lean on. My situation is hardly unique as you can imagine. This is not just a Mormon thing. Did I miss my family? Of course. Intently. But I can't make them do anything that they don't want to do. I can only control my actions and how I respond to what is handed to me. I know this may sound odd. But I am grateful to God for being gay. It has taught me so much about compassion, love, charity and giving of yourself even when it is difficult. Personally, I think there is a reason why there are gay people. Perhaps my family needed me to be gay. Perhaps I needed to be gay. I have felt my diabetes was a gift to me sometimes as well. It has taught me some things I don't think that I could have learned well without it. I'm glad things are going better with your family.
Ahab Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, california boy said: I think the point is we should hate the sin THAT IS IN US. Other people's sins are no concern of ours. The world can be full of sin. So is the people in the church. It shouldn't effect how we live our lives or how we treat others. That's part of the point, but not all of it. I do believe we should be careful about pulling motes out of other's eyes when we have beams in our own eyes, but when we love others we should try to help them, too, while we still work on ourselves.
cinepro Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) There are actually a few videos regarding gay LDS on the "Mormon Channel". This one is especially interesting, because at 4:30 she tells the story of feeling suicidal and her therapist suggesting she pray to God to ask Him how He felt about her homosexual tendencies. The answer is interesting... Edited March 21, 2017 by cinepro
Robert F. Smith Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 17 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Really Robert its beneath you to resort to comparative hyperbole. But that said...what I described IS the real world...it's you and your sin that are living in a bubble Have fun in that imaginary paradise of yours, good buddy. I wish you well. The only problem is, since you are quite wrong, that all the rest of us are going to be jostled and shoved down the road to oblivion which you have chosen for yourself and for the rest of us. Kind of like Chairman Mao's cultural revolution, which was well-intentioned but completely wrong. Kind of like having our future determined by the Donald. And I don't mean Donald Duck.
california boy Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 27 minutes ago, Ahab said: That's part of the point, but not all of it. I do believe we should be careful about pulling motes out of other's eyes when we have beams in our own eyes, but when we love others we should try to help them, too, while we still work on ourselves. Well in my humble opinion, you don't need to tell them you love them even if they are a sinner. Would you like to be welcomed that way? Hey brother Ahab, nice to see you. You know we love you even though you are a sinner? About the 10th person to greet you that way would probably not make you have warm and fuzzy feelings for them. Yet this is a standard way many people, even on this board have addressed me. I honestly instantly do not trust the sincerity of their love. 1
Ahab Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, california boy said: Well in my humble opinion, you don't need to tell them you love them even if they are a sinner. Would you like to be welcomed that way? Hey brother Ahab, nice to see you. You know we love you even though you are a sinner? About the 10th person to greet you that way would probably not make you have warm and fuzzy feelings for them. Yet this is a standard way many people, even on this board have addressed me. I honestly instantly do not trust the sincerity of their love. I've never addressed anyone that way and can't think of any good reason I would unless maybe there was a running joke about that phrase and I felt sure that the person I said that to would think it was funny for me to say that. But that would probably be a very rare situation and even then I would only maybe say that. But I would also only maybe say that someone is a sinner, because not everyone is, although most everyone has and most people still do occasionally. Some of us sin so rarely these days though that the term doesn't seem appropriate to me. It would be like calling someone a thief because he stole something in his past but he does not steal anymore.
Maestrophil Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 1 hour ago, california boy said: This line "Love the sinner, hate the sin" has become a mantra that has almost reach canonization proportions. I personally find it a very false idea of the teachings of Christ. He never said anything like this. He only said. Love the sinner. There is no condition added to that statement. I would rather the mantra be "Love the sinner, because we are all sinners." But self righteous people seem to need to add "hate the sin" as if they are so perfect that they are graciously overlooking some sin that they don't have. Yes. That was my point exactly. My son KNOWS how I feel about his choices, and that they hurt me as a father who would love to see his son turn from bad habits that rob him of the spirit. I don't need to state it over and over again - but I do need to state I love him unconditionally. The fact that I hate sin is implicit in my active, temple recommend holding life. But so should the fact that I am to love and not judge. 2
california boy Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 8 minutes ago, Ahab said: I've never addressed anyone that way and can't think of any good reason I would unless maybe there was a running joke about that phrase and I felt sure that the person I said that to would think it was funny for me to say that. But that would probably be a very rare situation and even then I would only maybe say that. But I would also only maybe say that someone is a sinner, because not everyone is, although most everyone has and most people still do occasionally. Some of us sin so rarely these days though that the term doesn't seem appropriate to me. It would be like calling someone a thief because he stole something in his past but he does not steal anymore. My apologies. I didn't realize you were so far up the ladder to perfection. You can keep calling me a sinner. The term still applies. But if you feel the need to do so, don't bother with the love part of the phrase. I really won't believe it. 1
Gray Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Umm, no, not really. Those are men and women joined in marriage to each other, not same sex couples. They're out in two ways. You said the "only good form of sexual relations between people is between a man and a woman" Polygamists are out because it's between a man and multiple women. You went on to say, "who truly love each other and are legally and lawfully married." Polygamy has never been legal in this country.
Ahab Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 11 minutes ago, california boy said: My apologies. I didn't realize you were so far up the ladder to perfection. You can keep calling me a sinner. The term still applies. But if you feel the need to do so, don't bother with the love part of the phrase. I really won't believe it. I love you anyway.
Daniel2 Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) I posted this on a similar thread, but figured it's worth re-sharing here: When I came out, my entire family was (and continues to be, to this day) very devout, highly active, conservatively-orthodox LDS members. I am grateful that my parents responded very much as the parents in this video did--with immediate affirmations of love and emphasizing family ties, no matter what else happened in the future. My dad had served in a variety of church leadership throughout my life, both as EQ President and Branch President on numerous occasions (we grew up overseas and church was usually smaller Branch congregations made up of US Military members and local English-speakers within the mission field). At the time I came out (in my early 30's, after serving a mission myself, graduating from BYU, marrying in the SL Temple, and having three children of my own), my parents and I weren't living near/local to each other, so I broke the news on a one-on-one phone call to my father. I told him first, because I knew Dad would take it well, but was more concerned about how my Mom would handle it. After I said the words, "Dad, I'm gay," his first words where, "Son, I don't have all the answers, but know that I love you and you will ALWAYS be my son, no matter what." I was more concerned about Mom because her entire identity as a homemaker and mother revolved around raising five sons to be upstanding members of the church, serve missions, marry in the temple, and endure in faithfulness to the end (something she often expressed gratitude for from the pulpit for during testimony meetings), and I was worried that she wouldn't take the news very well. After asking for my Dad's input on how to tell her, I followed Dad's suggestion to have him break the news to her instead of me telling her directly, giving him some time to discuss it with her so she could process it, and having me ready for a phone call from her when Mom was ready to talk. Although she was also very loving, she was a little more expressive of her hope that I would find answers to "fix" what she felt was "broken." It took some time to process, but she also eventually came around to seeing that this wasn't a choice I had made and that the years of therapy I'd already endured didn't find anything that even needed "fixing." When I finally met my husband, Dad was in advanced stages of a terminal illness, and my husband (who was also raised LDS, served a mission and in bishoprics, and an accomplished singer) and I would often visit Dad in the final years of his life and sing hymns to him in his care home. Mom still regularly welcomes us in her house, as well as visiting us at our home, going out to dinners and plays together, and even attending family gatherings on my husbands' side (his family all lives locally, while I am the only child that resides in the same state as Mom, now). My husband and I haven't asked her to change any of her beliefs, and she doesn't push anything on us, either. Loving each other despite our differences of belief is easy, because there is a foundational love and respect that predated my coming out, anyway. My four brothers were a different story. Two of my four brothers had previously and were currently serving as branch presidents, bishops, and as stake president. Unlike CaliforniaBoy, however, those two brothers serving in LDS leadership positions responded in the MOST loving, compassionate, accepting way. At the time, I was clear that I was also leaving the church and was hopeful to someday find a husband to share my life with. They both immediately responded in love and acceptance, told me that I was always welcome in their homes, and that they'd love to meet and spend family time with a partner, should I ever meet someone. They both live out of state. One of them chose to come to our wedding, the other sent a card welcoming my husband to the family. In the last 2 years, both of these brothers, their wives, and all their children (ranging in age from 6 to 26) have welcomed us, shared family dinners, played games, gone to movies, etc. with both my husband and I. My nieces and nephews are particularly fond of both my husband and I and often clamor to be on our team when playing games. My other two brothers initially took a diametrically opposite approach. Although they were both kind when I first came out, the moment it became clear that I was leaving the church and pursing a future relationship with a man, they terminated any and all contact. They shared with me, our parents, and my two other brothers their objections and refusal to attend any family gatherings at which my husband and I would be present, refused to acknowledge him or even my legal (last) name change after my marriage, and had many discussions with my Mom and other brothers warning them that I was a bad influence on them and was attempting to 'turn' my Mom, especially, away from the church. These brothers have been very black and white on the issue... to them, allowing themselves or their children to interact with me and my husband seems to be nothing less than the first step on the road to condoning sin and/or a potentially dangerous influence on their children. One brother and his family have since softened his refusal and has since welcomed us into their home and we've had increased interaction with he and his family, now that his children are mostly out of the home (their youngest is almost done with HS). The last brother, in particular, has remained mostly resistive and deeply concerned about his own boys' development to the point of bringing two Christian (one of whom is LDS) authors' book he was reading to Mom's house while he was staying there for a family reunion called Encouraging Heterosexuality: Helping Children Develop a Traditional Sexual Orientation, the description of which states, "This book offers a unique approach which unapologetically demonstrates how faith, tradition and science are complementary in the search for truth about what is best for children. Their message is simple and clear: Parents can prefer and encourage heterosexuality in their children and can do so without disrespect or criticism for those who believe or differently. Parents will find practical advice as well as cutting edge research to reinforce traditional sexual views.") I was already familiar with that book, and personally believe it to be an outdated and particularly unjust/misguided indictment of parents and individuals, insidiously blaming them for causing their kids (or themselves) to be gay. Thankfully, it's no longer available, at least at Deseret Book). This brother has only had brief interaction with my husband at a family funeral, and remains committed to the idea that either he and his family or I and my husband will attend family reunions and gatherings--but he refuses to attend, and forbids his wife and children to attend, if my husband and I do. Mom has been heartbroken at the division this has caused in the family, especially in light of Dad's passing early last year. It's been really challenging for her, and my other brothers don't know how to help, either. She has spend many hours on her knees, crying, asking for help with how to help my brother find compassion and empathy. In the end, each of us make choices for our lives, and ultimately must surrender control in the face of personal agency. As parents, perhaps that is the most painful lesson we all ultimately learn, like it or not. What may seem ironic to some on the outside is that my father's reaction and that of my two closest brothers are those that have been and continue to be in leadership positions within the church. But that isn't a surprise to me, and I don't imagine will come as a surprise to those Latter-day Saints who strive for charity, kindness, compassion, and to reserve judgment of others who are different. Mom and I both feel that it's expressly BECAUSE of my Dad's and two brother's experiences serving as branch presidents, bishops and stake presidents--NOT in SPITE of those experiences--that have led Dad and my two accepting brothers to make my husband and I feel welcome. Being a bishop exposes so many men to the struggles we all face, and, ironically, despite being called "as judges in Israel," often help such leaders develop compassion, empathy, and understanding. Their experiences have led them to what I consider to be Christ-like examples of seeking for the spirit of the law, rather than the Pharisaical letter of it. In the end, while I understand that many here aren't surprised by the new video's message and don't feel it has changed much, in my personal and familial experience, it's a HUGE departure from the Oakman/Wicks interview many years ago (which is what my brother has advocated of, in defense of his approach). My brother tends to take his cues directly from church leadership and is highly suspicious of any non-official influences. I hope he will someday see this video and contemplate its significance. I would have welcomed it's explicit and clear message of acceptance and love and open doors many years ago, but I'm truly grateful for it, even today. Edited March 21, 2017 by Daniel2 1
Daniel2 Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) 22 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Not sure the Church ever taught that anyone should ever shun their children. If so, myself and my wife, nor any other Mormon we know we're ever listening. It never occurred to us to shun our gay child, if anything any issues that would ever seek to distance our children from us, only made us want to draw nearer. 17 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: My comment was pertaining to the idea that the Church taught that gay children (or any children) we required to be shunned. I have never heard of any such teaching in 38 years. My Bishop and Stake President's only advice to me (and I sought it) was to be loving and forgiving of my child. If their advice had been different, I would have still been loving and forgiving. In my family, this portion of the Oaks/Wickman interview on the LDS Newsroom in the fall of 2006 was cited by some members of my family as justification for some of my family members' ongoing refusal to be in the same room with me, and prohibit their spouses and family members from doing the same: Quote PUBLIC AFFAIRS: At what point does showing that love cross the line into inadvertently endorsing behavior? If the son says, ‘Well, if you love me, can I bring my partner to our home to visit? Can we come for holidays?’ How do you balance that against, for example, concern for other children in the home?’ ELDER OAKS: That’s a decision that needs to be made individually by the person responsible, calling upon the Lord for inspiration. I can imagine that in most circumstances the parents would say, ‘Please don’t do that. Don’t put us into that position.’ Surely if there are children in the home who would be influenced by this example, the answer would likely be that. There would also be other factors that would make that the likely answer. I can also imagine some circumstances in which it might be possible to say, ‘Yes, come, but don’t expect to stay overnight. Don’t expect to be a lengthy house guest. Don’t expect us to take you out and introduce you to our friends, or to deal with you in a public situation that would imply our approval of your “partnership.” There are so many different circumstances, it’s impossible to give one answer that fits all. I'm grateful that this new video tempers that previously released newsroom interview. Edited March 21, 2017 by Daniel2 1
Ahab Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 23 minutes ago, Gray said: They're out in two ways. You said the "only good form of sexual relations between people is between a man and a woman" Polygamists are out because it's between a man and multiple women. The righteous sexual relationships are still between only a man and a woman. There is no same sex sexual relations in a righteous marriage. I will now retract what I said about a legal and lawful marriage being required of a righteous marriage. Evidently all that is required is that God authorize that marriage.
Gray Posted March 21, 2017 Posted March 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, Ahab said: The righteous sexual relationships are still between only a man and a woman. There is no same sex sexual relations in a righteous marriage. It's between a man and multiple women. No one is claiming that the women have relationships with each other, but the man has relationships with multiple women. 3 minutes ago, Ahab said: I will now retract what I said about a legal and lawful marriage being required of a righteous marriage. Evidently all that is required is that God authorize that marriage. The church says that it should be legal and lawful, though.
bluebell Posted March 21, 2017 Author Posted March 21, 2017 3 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: As I learned when I was a missionary... I answered the question you should have asked. And you've made the point before how you don't think that's a valid way to answer questions. Is there some reason you are refusing to answer it? Maybe because your answer would show how it's not actually offensive to love someone while hating choices they've made that you believe are wrong?
Recommended Posts