The Church puts out a video about a family who accepts their gay son

[jcake]

I don't think God does look at the calendar to decide what is sin.  I do think people are heavily influenced by their culture and time.    Which is why I can eat bacon, talk in church, etc. and not be accused of sinning, which wasn't always the case.  I do think sin is behaving in a way that does harm to myself or others.  The ten commandments seem to fit in perfectly here.  When we decide that things that aren't hurting anyone, and may even be caring and loving, are sinful, then I have to give those things a little more thought.

Edited March 21, 2017 by jcake

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

My comment was pertaining to the idea that the Church taught that gay children (or any children) we required to be shunned. I have never heard of any such teaching in 38 years. My Bishop and Stake President's only advice to me (and I sought it) was to be loving and forgiving of my child. If their advice had been different, I would have still been loving and forgiving.

As for what happened with yourself and your family, I can only say that I am so sorry. I would also add that the healing powers of the Atonement, and Balm of Gilead are available to both those who have sins, or to those who have been sinned upon. It is my prayer that one day (and I believe that it will be) you and your family will all once again find that bond for which heaven made you. Hope this helps? 

Bill, your brother in Christ Jesus. 

Thanks. That is very kind of you.  And things are definitely getting better.  I hope some day to feel like I am a part of the family again.

[Meadowchik]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

Your dealing with this issue is nothing close to what I experienced.  I posted this on the other thread that talked about this video.  It is my reality.

 

I cried through the whole video.  If only that video would have been around when I came out to my family some 17 years ago, what a different life I may have had.  My family except one sister basically had nothing to do with me for 15 years.  15 years.  Never invited to a family event.  Never invited to a baptism.  Never a missionary farewell, Never a Christmas dinner.  Nothing.  On rare occasions, I would visit some of my family members to try and reconnect.  But basically it was a one sided effort.  I began to accept that I was never going to be a part of the family ever again.  I would just be that son, brother, that was lost.  

About two years ago, I was going to be at a meeting near my fathers house.  I told him I would like to see him, but I would be with my partner who was also going to the meeting.  So if that was a problem, I would understand.  But he told me to come by and bring my partner.  The connection went well.  My dad really warmed up to my partner.  They actually talked more than I did.  

That was two years ago.  It has made a big difference.  It is like he gave my siblings permission to have a relationship with me again.  For the first time, I am getting Christmas cards from family members.  They helped me with a service project I wanted to do.  And me and my partner were invited to a sibling get together.  One sister in law told me she needed to talk to me about something.  I kinda freaked out inside of what she might say.  But she surprised me and apologized how she has been treating me for the past 15 years.  Just this week, my other sister apologized and told me that so much has changed.  She is over issues, and wants her brother back in her life.  

It is not all roses.  There are still some family members that think I should not be a part of the family and they have made that quite clear.  Actually it is the sister in laws that are trying to keep me away from family activities.  I wasn't invited to a week long sibling vacation that my father is organizing.  It is painful, but hey after 17 years of this, I have developed a pretty thick skin.  

In some ways, I see a parallel with how the church has treated it's relationship with gay members and how both my family and the one in the video handled having a gay son.  17 years ago, the church wanted nothing to do with anyone who was gay.  Their only solution was to make them choose to be straight.  Then the church realized that being gay is not a choice.  So the policy was to tell gay members to never have a deep relationship with anyone all their lives.  Nothing.  No dating.  No kissing.  No marriage.  Nothing.  This video is a big deal.  For the first time, the church is realizing that gays can have a rich and fulfilling life.  Unfortunately still not within the church.  But hey.  Baby steps.  Like my sister said this week.  A lot has changed.  There is a greater understanding of things.

I am not sure I should send this video link to my family members.  I would love to have them see it.  But since I have such little contact with them, I don't want everything that I talk to them about is this whole gay issue.  There is way more to me than just being gay.  I think they are just beginning to remember that.  Any advice?  

Wow, how fortunate they are to have a son and brother who is still open to a healthy relationship, despite everything.

I am so sorry for any part I have played, by way of giving ammunition to shunners, as an opponent of gay marriage.

I hope you can have the wholeness in your parents' family that you always wanted, or the hope of it, and be sustained in the meantime.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Meadowchik

[Guest]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

Thanks. That is very kind of you.  And things are definitely getting better.  I hope some day to feel like I am a part of the family again.

I am sure it will, after all "hope" is the very foundation of any faith or any family. 

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I'm sure you're color blind to how offensive this remark is bluebell even though I know that wasn't your intent. What past generations considered sin you now engage in and what you consider sin your grandchildren will not.  Sin is fleeting and changes based on a variety of ever moving factors.  Blessed are those that have eyes to see

Think about something that you sincerely believe is wrong.  Then think about someone you love doing it?  Would it be offensive for you to continue to love them while still believing their actions are wrong?  

[Maestrophil]

Perhaps it is the focus on the sin that taints the "love the sinner, hate the sin" line?  Aren't we all advised to "Love the sinner"?  And are not we all sinners?  

When people say they love me, I never hear "love the sinner, hate the sin"?  Why not?  I have sins that are just as detrimental in keeping me from God's presence as any other sin (as any sin will keep you out, right?).  That said, I can see how saying "love the sinner, hate the sin" regarding certain 'sinners' and not others can create a feeling of judgement and superiority in and of itself.  

I am trying to espouse this with my own kids - such as my son who is inactive and smokes pot and drinks.  I don't want him to feel 'I love you - inspite of" but rather, "I love you!!"  

 

Edited March 21, 2017 by Maestrophil

[Ahab]

12 hours ago, jcake said:

When we decide that things that aren't hurting anyone, and may even be caring and loving, are sinful, then I have to give those things a little more thought.

That is the category of sin we are talking about here, I think.

Consider fornication, for example. Ithe could be argued that type of sin may even be caring and loving, to some degree, and yet there is still considered to be something sinful about it, even when the people truly love each other.

I think some people just have a hard time telling the difference between what is good and what is evil.

[stemelbow]

I remain a bit sad after this video.  I think it's a good thing that families stay together, love and support.  But the message of the Church doesn't want them seems strong.  "you can love your family member who is gay" followed with, but "there really isnt' room for them in the Church" hurts me.  I'm trying to remain patient and I think things will continue to change, but it's too slow for me.

[Johnnie Cake]

13 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

What is considered a sin by society does change from one generation to the next.  God however does not look at the calendar to decide what is sin and what is not sin. 

Ever read the Bible?  God has changed His mind on what constitutes sin all the time...

[Ahab]

16 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Perhaps it is the focus on the sin that taints the "love the sinner, hate the sin" line?  Aren't we all advised to "Love the sinner"?  And are not we all sinners?  

When people say they love me, I never hear "love the sinner, hate the sin"?  Why not?  I have sins that are just as detrimental in keeping me from God's presence as any other sin (as any sin will keep you out, right?).  That said, I can see how saying "love the sinner, hate the sin" regarding certain 'sinners' and not others can create a feeling of judgement and superiority in and of itself.  

I am trying to espouse this with my own kids - such as my son who is inactive and smokes pot and drinks.  I don't want him to feel 'I love you - inspite of" but rather, "I love you!!"  

 

I think it's important that our children, or anyone else we love, know that we love them, personally, but that that is not to say that we love everything that they do.

And that because we love them, personally, we want to try to help them to stop doing something, including thinking something, that isn't good for them to be doing or thinking.

Otherwise they might get the idea that we think everything about them and all that they do is just wonderful, darling, and downright adorable even when what we really think is that they are far, far away from perfection.

[stemelbow]

Just now, Johnnie Cake said:

Ever read the Bible?  God has changed His mind on what constitutes sin all the time...

God or the people who pretend to speak for him.

[Johnnie Cake]

13 hours ago, jcake said:

I don't think God does look at the calendar to decide what is sin.  I do think people are heavily influenced by their culture and time.    Which is why I can eat bacon, talk in church, etc. and not be accused of sinning, which wasn't always the case.  I do think sin is behaving in a way that does harm to myself or others.  The ten commandments seem to fit in perfectly here.  When we decide that things that aren't hurting anyone, and may even be caring and loving, are sinful, then I have to give those things a little more thought.

Are we Related?  Were you are the Cake Family reunion?

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Think about something that you sincerely believe is wrong.  Then think about someone you love doing it?  Would it be offensive for you to continue to love them while still believing their actions are wrong?  

Homosexual sex between consenting adults is no more a sin that sex between heterosexuals.  That you and the LDS church wish to make it one is the problem. That this attitude of sin and guilt is then projected onto a members of the LGBT community is the real sin

[Johnnie Cake]

8 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

God or the people who pretend to speak for him.

Exactly

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Homosexual sex between consenting adults is no more a sin that sex between heterosexuals.  That you and the LDS church wish to make it one is the problem. That this attitude of sin and guilt is then projected onto a members of the LGBT community is the real sin

I didn't ask you how you felt about homosexuality.   Could you answer the question i actually asked?

[stemelbow]

7 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Homosexual sex between consenting adults is no more a sin that sex between heterosexuals.  That you and the LDS church wish to make it one is the problem. That this attitude of sin and guilt is then projected onto a members of the LGBT community is the real sin

hah...Exactly.

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Homosexual sex between consenting adults is no more a sin that sex between heterosexuals.  That you and the LDS church wish to make it one is the problem. That this attitude of sin and guilt is then projected onto a members of the LGBT community is the real sin

Sin is sin regardless of what the sin is, but there are still different types or forms of sin.  

The only good form of sexual relations between people is between a man and a woman who truly love each other and are legally and lawfully married.  

[Johnnie Cake]

1 minute ago, Ahab said:

Sin is sin regardless of what the sin is, but there are still different types or forms of sin.  

The only good form of sexual relations between people is between a man and a woman who truly love each other and are legally and lawfully married.  

The LDS church is free to define sin anyway its wishes to...Doing so does not make it true or sin.

[Johnnie Cake]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I didn't ask you how you felt about homosexuality.   Could you answer the question i actually asked?

As I learned when I was a missionary... I answered the question you should have asked.

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said:

The LDS church is free to define sin anyway its wishes to...Doing so does not make it true or sin.

True.  Truth is truth and sin is sin regardless of what anyone thinks.

[Rain]

15 hours ago, california boy said:

Your dealing with this issue is nothing close to what I experienced.  I posted this on the other thread that talked about this video.  It is my reality.

 

I cried through the whole video.  If only that video would have been around when I came out to my family some 17 years ago, what a different life I may have had.  My family except one sister basically had nothing to do with me for 15 years.  15 years.  Never invited to a family event.  Never invited to a baptism.  Never a missionary farewell, Never a Christmas dinner.  Nothing.  On rare occasions, I would visit some of my family members to try and reconnect.  But basically it was a one sided effort.  I began to accept that I was never going to be a part of the family ever again.  I would just be that son, brother, that was lost.  

About two years ago, I was going to be at a meeting near my fathers house.  I told him I would like to see him, but I would be with my partner who was also going to the meeting.  So if that was a problem, I would understand.  But he told me to come by and bring my partner.  The connection went well.  My dad really warmed up to my partner.  They actually talked more than I did.  

That was two years ago.  It has made a big difference.  It is like he gave my siblings permission to have a relationship with me again.  For the first time, I am getting Christmas cards from family members.  They helped me with a service project I wanted to do.  And me and my partner were invited to a sibling get together.  One sister in law told me she needed to talk to me about something.  I kinda freaked out inside of what she might say.  But she surprised me and apologized how she has been treating me for the past 15 years.  Just this week, my other sister apologized and told me that so much has changed.  She is over issues, and wants her brother back in her life.  

It is not all roses.  There are still some family members that think I should not be a part of the family and they have made that quite clear.  Actually it is the sister in laws that are trying to keep me away from family activities.  I wasn't invited to a week long sibling vacation that my father is organizing.  It is painful, but hey after 17 years of this, I have developed a pretty thick skin.  

In some ways, I see a parallel with how the church has treated it's relationship with gay members and how both my family and the one in the video handled having a gay son.  17 years ago, the church wanted nothing to do with anyone who was gay.  Their only solution was to make them choose to be straight.  Then the church realized that being gay is not a choice.  So the policy was to tell gay members to never have a deep relationship with anyone all their lives.  Nothing.  No dating.  No kissing.  No marriage.  Nothing.  This video is a big deal.  For the first time, the church is realizing that gays can have a rich and fulfilling life.  Unfortunately still not within the church.  But hey.  Baby steps.  Like my sister said this week.  A lot has changed.  There is a greater understanding of things.

I am not sure I should send this video link to my family members.  I would love to have them see it.  But since I have such little contact with them, I don't want everything that I talk to them about is this whole gay issue.  There is way more to me than just being gay.  I think they are just beginning to remember that.  Any advice?  

I've been thinking about you a lot the last couple of days.  I can't imagine how hard it must have been to feel how you have felt the last 17 years.  I know it must have been incredibly tough for you. 

Coming from the other side,  though with different issues,  and with 2 family members and a number of friends I wonder if you have ever expressed to them that you felt shunned?  

I ask this because I wonder if they saw things very differently and if they did if maybe understanding their side if there couldn't be some healing for both of you. 

For several years I've had one family member constantly swipe at us. I knew she was doing it out of pain because of things going on in her former marriage among other things. So I hung on. At one point I suggested she look into some help. I got an earful over that and then silence to every time I reached out to her in little ways and more important ways.

I've heard over and over again about VTs and others are constant pains in the neck coming every single month when not wanted. I began to wonder if this was how my loved one felt about me. Then I was in the middle of my own battle where I was barely staying above water. Just texting this family member and getting nothing back took everything I had.

I finally let this loved one know that I didn't want to be the hated person that would not stop bugging her.  I still loved her and wanted contact,  but I recognized I couldn't force contact on her part,  nor did I want to.  I let her know I was going to stop contacting her,  but if she wanted to keep that bond I was there for her.  She has never contacted me back. 

I have often wondered if she understood that the way my husband understood me on his mission.  I knew I would marry him some day. I wrote to him while I was out that I needed to concentrate on my own mission so I was going to stop writing him, but wanted to see him when I got home. He took that as a dear John letter and was engaged when I got home. So I've often wondered if she thought I was saying that I didn't want to hear from her.  I feel stuck a bit because I don't want her to feel that way,  but I also don't want her to wish I would leave her alone.  

So I wonder what your family would say if you asked them about this.  Again I can imagine it would be a very difficult thing to do and maybe it would be worse to find out why they acted the way they did.  But on this side I just hope that it would be healing. 

[Rain]

Ok, with other things going on and with your post California I have just reached out to her again. I hope she chooses to reach back. 

[Gray]

58 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Sin is sin regardless of what the sin is, but there are still different types or forms of sin.  

The only good form of sexual relations between people is between a man and a woman who truly love each other and are legally and lawfully married.  

That leaves all of our polygamist ancestors out in the cold.

[Johnnie Cake]

55 minutes ago, Ahab said:

True.  Truth is truth and sin is sin regardless of what anyone thinks.

Ahab,  I think we've reached that place where we're just going to have to agree to disagree

[Ahab]

11 minutes ago, Gray said:

That leaves all of our polygamist ancestors out in the cold.

Umm, no, not really.  Those are men and women joined in marriage to each other, not same sex couples.