Serious Question: Has the Church Ever Admitted to Making a Mistake?

[Johnnie Cake]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This place is addicting isn't it?!? I think the MDDB has such variety, nothing beats it! By variety I want to emphasize the part that has believers of every walk of life. Lots of flavor here.

I enjoy several things about MD&D.  The intellectual stimulation, the challenge of being held accountable for my claims, the speed of the interaction and the diversity of thought to name a few

[JLHPROF]

33 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This place is addicting isn't it?!? I think the MDDB has such variety, nothing beats it! By variety I want to emphasize the part that has believers of every walk of life. Lots of flavor here.

 

42 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

 What's the common derogatory term designed both as a demeaning joke and as a descriptor of the posters in that board? The Trailer Park is it? While I've never seen you use the term it is often thrown about on this board...and it is an excellent example of the condescending, holier than thou attitude some hold on this board.

In all fairness, it takes about 30 seconds of reading posts on this board and on the other board to determine why such a demeaning term is used for the other board.  The threads in the most popular forum contain little discussion and a whole lot of insults.  Our Mods may occasionally be a bit strict, but they allow respectful discussion.  If they didn't allow debate this board would be an echo chamber and I'd lose interest quickly.

But we stick to issues, as Tacenda says, such variety and flavor.  And we can do it without being insulting.  I think the last time one of my posts on this board was quoted by a poster on "the other board" it was suggested that my only value was as an organ donor, and probably not even then.  And they delight in trashing the Church, believers, most posters here - even Calm, one of the nicest people I've ever corresponded with online.  So yeah, trailer park.

[Johnnie Cake]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

In all fairness, it takes about 30 seconds of reading posts on this board and on the other board to determine why such a demeaning term is used for the other board.  The threads in the most popular forum contain little discussion and a whole lot of insults.  Our Mods may occasionally be a bit strict, but they allow respectful discussion.  If they didn't allow debate this board would be an echo chamber and I'd lose interest quickly.

But we stick to issues, as Tacenda says, such variety and flavor.  And we can do it without being insulting.  I think the last time one of my posts on this board was quoted by a poster on "the other board" it was suggested that my only value was as an organ donor, and probably not even then.  And they delight in trashing the Church, believers, most posters here - even Calm, one of the nicest people I've ever corresponded with online.  So yeah, trailer park.

Ok I have to admit it...I just Laughed Out Loud at the Organ Donor comment...but yeah that is over the top...but it was a funny quip

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Judging goes both ways pogi,  What's the common derogatory term designed both as a demeaning joke and as a descriptor of the posters in that board? The Trailer Park is it? While I've never seen you use the term it is often thrown about on this board...and it is an excellent example of the condescending, holier than thou attitude some hold on this board.  I've always tried to be respectful of this board and its members...I always refer to it as MD&D and not by its other name....although I have at times expressed frustration over what I've considered the capriciousness of how some board policies are enforced. <---a comment that will probably get me in trouble yet again.

While you are welcome to read anything I've ever written online just as anyone is...I only ask that when you cross post my comments, just keep them in context instead of cherry picking for effect.

Just when we were beginning to turn a corner...Can you not see the patronizing condescension in your last paragraph? Relegating my posts to negative tabloid trash?  You just had to get in that one last dig right? Maintain your superior POV. But you framed it as a joke so that makes it ok, right? You've put me in my place and now you can pose for the photo.  I will totally push back on your use of descriptor words like "consistent negative twist"  I reject that my posts are twisted or spun in such a manner so as to be negative or tabloid trash...as for provocative or attention grabbing...I certainly hope so

OK, I hear you, I understand that you feel picked on and judged by me, and probably for good reason as I have been more heavy handed than I typically am.  Sometimes you just have to get it out of your system.  Like I said, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.  I think that you will find that I am more than reasonable to try to see things from another's perspective.  Sometimes that takes a little time and patience.  Give me a little time, and a little patience, and I will try to better understand where you are coming from.

The last paragraph was a bit of banter.  What fun would this place be without a little banter?  And what would banter be without a little condescension - a little jab here and there?  Take your picture of Kendal Jones for example, and your comparison of me to a much ridiculed trophy hunter.  That is good banter and fair game.

I don't know why you would choose to push back on me for using descriptor words like "consistent negative twist" to describe your threads.  Show me a thread that you have started in relation to the Mormon church or its doctrines/teachings that is not designed to be oppositional, doubt raising, or critical in nature, a.k.a. "negative twist", and I (like Scott Lloyd), will gladly acknowledge that I was wrong...I will even take it a step further, I will say "I'm sorry" and mean it.

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

While you are welcome to read anything I've ever written online just as anyone is...I only ask that when you cross post my comments, just keep them in context instead of cherry picking for effect.

My cherry picking, in this case, might actually help your image over here.  Do you really want me to put it in context?  It wont change what you said at all.  I understand that sometimes people say things in a hyperbolic way, especially when frustrated and angry (which you clearly were).  If that is the case, just say so, but putting it in context I am afraid, will not change anything.  

[pogi]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Pogi...why are you checking in elsewhere?? 

Why?  Do you guys have something to hide over there or something?

You know it is funny, I have heard a lot of comments here about this other discussion board, but I have never known what it's about.  I happily stumbled upon this board and am not interested in spreading myself thin.  Rongo and others have mentioned Johnnies activity on other threads so I was partial curious to see what this "trailer park" was all about once and for all, but I also wanted to verify that Johnnie isn't a completely different person over there.  If there is one thing that pisses me off is disingenuous people.  I really, really hate it when people hide behind masks to deceive, or change their persona depending on the crowd they are in.  With me, what you see is what you get, online and offline, at church, work or at a Phish concert.  I don't dress up like a hippy to be accepted by the crowd. I am me...if you don't like it, oh well.  While Johnnie certainly sensors himself more over here than there, he is not really a different person as far as I can tell with the limited time that I spent over there.   I was happy to see that.  I just like to know what I am really dealing with, is that so wrong?  I have been fooled before.

 

[clarkgoble]

On 2/12/2017 at 0:45 PM, Johnnie Cake said:

I know the church doesn't apologize but certainly mistakes have been made over the years that they must regret or there have been errors in judgement over the years or there have been positions taken by the church and its various organizations that have caused unintended injury, harm or caused damaged to its members due to its policies or made by the people who have been called to positions of authority...and yet I could not think of a single example of the church ever taking responsibility, expressing regret and admitting that mistakes were made.

I've not read all the thread so apologies if this was mentioned already.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/695209359/LDS-Church-issues-apology-over-Mountain-Meadows.html

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

 

 

I don't know why you would choose to push back on me for using descriptor words like "consistent negative twist" to describe your threads.  Show me a thread that you have started in relation to the Mormon church or its doctrines/teachings that is not designed to be oppositional, doubt raising, or critical in nature, a.k.a. "negative twist", and I (like Scott Lloyd), will gladly acknowledge that I was wrong...I will even take it a step further, I will say "I'm sorry" and mean it.

 

Umm...how about this thread I created, Did I twist it negative enough for you?

or this one:

or this one:

or this one:

or this one:

 

Should I go on?

 

Edited February 17, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

OK, I hear you, I understand that you feel picked on and judged by me, and probably for good reason as I have been more heavy handed than I typically am.  Sometimes you just have to get it out of your system.  Like I said, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.  I think that you will find that I am more than reasonable to try to see things from another's perspective.  Sometimes that takes a little time and patience.  Give me a little time, and a little patience, and I will try to better understand where you are coming from.

I don't feel picked on at all...the whole drama around our conversation has been, at least from my POV, on your tone and what I feel is a perceptive based on false assumptions

Quote

The last paragraph was a bit of banter.  What fun would this place be without a little banter?  And what would banter be without a little condescension - a little jab here and there?  Take your picture of Kendal Jones for example, and your comparison of me to a much ridiculed trophy hunter.  That is good banter and fair game.

I get that...and I'm fine

Quote

My cherry picking, in this case, might actually help your image over here.  Do you really want me to put it in context?  It wont change what you said at all.  I understand that sometimes people say things in a hyperbolic way, especially when frustrated and angry (which you clearly were).  If that is the case, just say so, but putting it in context I am afraid, will not change anything.  

Gotta know your audience...and I direct my comments to the audience they are intended for...

Edited February 17, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Why?  Do you guys have something to hide over there or something?

You know it is funny, I have heard a lot of comments here about this other discussion board, but I have never known what it's about.  I happily stumbled upon this board and am not interested in spreading myself thin.  Rongo and others have mentioned Johnnies activity on other threads so I was partial curious to see what this "trailer park" was all about once and for all, but I also wanted to verify that Johnnie isn't a completely different person over there.  If there is one thing that pisses me off is disingenuous people.  I really, really hate it when people hide behind masks to deceive, or change their persona depending on the crowd they are in.  With me, what you see is what you get, online and offline, at church, work or at a Phish concert.  I don't dress up like a hippy to be accepted by the crowd. I am me...if you don't like it, oh well.  While Johnnie certainly sensors himself more over here than there, he is not really a different person as far as I can tell with the limited time that I spent over there.   I was happy to see that.  I just like to know what I am really dealing with, is that so wrong?  I have been fooled before.

 

I was just curious.  I remember someone telling Tacenda to stay away from that "anti" stuff.  I sure don't have anything to hide...don't know about the rest.  I am not on there enough to know.  I check in for info but rarely post.  There are some really intelligent people over there..like here.  I have to get a dictionary out to know what they talking about.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Umm...how about this thread I created, Did I twist it negative enough for you?

I almost gave you credit for the first one, until I read this..."This post is proof that I should be reinstated to full board participation status" 

The second, third, and fourth ones are positive threads, but they have nothing to do with the church or its doctrine/teachings.  

In the last one you do give credit to the church, and for that I am sorry. I was wrong. Hell, I am feeling generous and will give you credit for the first one too as I believe it wasn't entirely based in ulterior motives.  I may have misjudged you and I am sorry. 

 

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I enjoy several things about MD&D.  The intellectual stimulation, the challenge of being held accountable for my claims, the speed of the interaction and the diversity of thought to name a few

That's exactly how I feel. When I'd post on NOM, I wouldn't get the attention that I get here, lol. The speed of interaction and diversity is a biggy! I love the format of MDDB too. 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

 

In all fairness, it takes about 30 seconds of reading posts on this board and on the other board to determine why such a demeaning term is used for the other board.  The threads in the most popular forum contain little discussion and a whole lot of insults.  Our Mods may occasionally be a bit strict, but they allow respectful discussion.  If they didn't allow debate this board would be an echo chamber and I'd lose interest quickly.

But we stick to issues, as Tacenda says, such variety and flavor.  And we can do it without being insulting.  I think the last time one of my posts on this board was quoted by a poster on "the other board" it was suggested that my only value was as an organ donor, and probably not even then.  And they delight in trashing the Church, believers, most posters here - even Calm, one of the nicest people I've ever corresponded with online.  So yeah, trailer park.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

I was just curious.  I remember someone telling Tacenda to stay away from that "anti" stuff.  I sure don't have anything to hide...don't know about the rest.  I am not on there enough to know.  I check in for info but rarely post.  There are some really intelligent people over there..like here.  I have to get a dictionary out to know what they talking about.

I think boards like that are important because it keeps the church from being totally bullet proof. Just like the church essays needing to come out. The members of the church should have things to cause a stir as to decide on their own what is right or wrong, and they get their own witness. Like me over 10 years ago. I didn't know a thing, before the anti or so-called anti stuff came out. Now that anti stuff is fact. I'd still be relying on others' testimonies or be in a bubble where I believed because I didn't know anything else. That's how sheltered I was, or unwilling to look at anything else being true or as true. 

Now I don't judge like I did before, even though I never thought I judged. Also, I wouldn't be helping my brother the way I have, honestly. It's been super painful to lose that knowledge that the church was true no matter what. And have that safe feeling that all is well. Now I search and search for the signs, and try to actually have faith, the the Lord talks about, where before I never needed faith, I just believed.

 

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think boards like that are important because it keeps the church from being totally bullet proof. Just like the church essays needing to come out. The members of the church should have things to cause a stir as to decide on their own what is right or wrong, and they get their own witness. Like me over 10 years ago. I didn't know a thing, before the anti or so-called anti stuff came out. Now that anti stuff is fact. I'd still be relying on others' testimonies or be in a bubble where I believed because I didn't know anything else. That's how sheltered I was, or unwilling to look at anything else being true or as true.

Now I don't judge like I did before, even though I never thought I judged. Also, I wouldn't be helping my brother the way I have, honestly. It's been super painful to lose that knowledge that the church was true no matter what. And have that safe feeling that all is well. Now I search and search for the signs, and try to actually have faith, the the Lord talks about, where before I never needed faith, I just believed.

 

 

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

I was just curious.  I remember someone telling Tacenda to stay away from that "anti" stuff.  I sure don't have anything to hide...don't know about the rest.  I am not on there enough to know.  I check in for info but rarely post.  There are some really intelligent people over there..like here.  I have to get a dictionary out to know what they talking about.

If that board were just "anti" that wouldn't be an issue.
We have plenty of anti members here.  And I would agree there are many very intelligent posters over there.  That is why I still lurk semi-regularly.
It's the lack of civility over there that gets to me.  There is little respectful disagreement and a whole lot of insults.

[Jeanne]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think boards like that are important because it keeps the church from being totally bullet proof. Just like the church essays needing to come out. The members of the church should have things to cause a stir as to decide on their own what is right or wrong, and they get their own witness. Like me over 10 years ago. I didn't know a thing, before the anti or so-called anti stuff came out. Now that anti stuff is fact. I'd still be relying on others' testimonies or be in a bubble where I believed because I didn't know anything else. That's how sheltered I was, or unwilling to look at anything else being true or as true. 

Now I don't judge like I did before, even though I never thought I judged. Also, I wouldn't be helping my brother the way I have, honestly. It's been super painful to lose that knowledge that the church was true no matter what. And have that safe feeling that all is well. Now I search and search for the signs, and try to actually have faith, the the Lord talks about, where before I never needed faith, I just believed.

 

I hear you Tacenda. There is truth everywhere..and some of it is hard to hear.  I hope all is well with your brother and I so admire your FAITH in him..and that..is what really matters.

[Jeanne]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

If that board were just "anti" that wouldn't be an issue.
We have plenty of anti members here.  And I would agree there are many very intelligent posters over there.  That is why I still lurk semi-regularly.
It's the lack of civility over there that gets to me.  There is little respectful disagreement and a whole lot of insults.

Just more freedom to speak out..and that is different to some here because we are monitored differently here; as it should be in LDS dialogue.  But to speak out and be yourself is not a bad thing.  I have been kind of insulted over there too..but I get to say what I want to say.  That is not easy here.  Have you seen the podcast advertised by consig yet?  I have been tempted to bring it here..but very wary to do so.

[Raingirl]

11 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Pogi...why are you checking in elsewhere?? 

Why not?  Anything posted on public forums is....well...public.

We had a poster here a while back who - while presenting one persona here - was heavily active on another forum for writers of explicit LGBT pornography.  Kind of gives you a different picture of a person, don't you think? Crying 0h-woe-is-me-I-can't-get-a-temple-recommend on this board, seeking sympathy and attention, all the while they are reveling in, and bragging about, the filth they are writing elsewhere.

If one has nothing to hide, and they are posting comments on a public online forum for all the world to see, why would they mind if anyone read their posts from other forums?

I have no idea which board is the one referred to as the "trailer park", but I have seen from comments here, more than one member of this forum over the years , has posed as an honest participant of this board, all the while making fun of this forum and the members here, elsewhere.

So, yeah, posts elsewhere might provide a more honest picture of the person you are dealing with.

[Thinking]

On 2/12/2017 at 5:23 PM, bluebell said:

Found the reference-

"Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form."

Disavowing the theories is not the same as admitting that the theories were advanced by the Church. This essay was very carefully written so as to not allow blame to fall on the LDS Church as an organization even though some leaders of that same organization were the ones who advanced the theories.

[Jeanne]

16 hours ago, Raingirl said:

Why not?  Anything posted on public forums is....well...public.

We had a poster here a while back who - while presenting one persona here - was heavily active on another forum for writers of explicit LGBT pornography.  Kind of gives you a different picture of a person, don't you think? Crying 0h-woe-is-me-I-can't-get-a-temple-recommend on this board, seeking sympathy and attention, all the while they are reveling in, and bragging about, the filth they are writing elsewhere.

If one has nothing to hide, and they are posting comments on a public online forum for all the world to see, why would they mind if anyone read their posts from other forums?

I have no idea which board is the one referred to as the "trailer park", but I have seen from comments here, more than one member of this forum over the years , has posed as an honest participant of this board, all the while making fun of this forum and the members here, elsewhere.

So, yeah, posts elsewhere might provide a more honest picture of the person you are dealing with.

Okay.

Edited to add:  I asked only because members here have told others not to go to those sites.  So yeah, it does provide an honest picture.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Jeanne