Johnnie Cake Posted February 12, 2017 Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) As I've been taking a break from MD&D this past week, laying on a Mexican beach, a random thought entered my mind that I seriously couldn't answer. So I kindly ask it here. Has the LDS Church ever admitted to making a mistake or error? I know the church doesn't apologize but certainly mistakes have been made over the years that they must regret or there have been errors in judgement over the years or there have been positions taken by the church and its various organizations that have caused unintended injury, harm or caused damaged to its members due to its policies or made by the people who have been called to positions of authority...and yet I could not think of a single example of the church ever taking responsibility, expressing regret and admitting that mistakes were made. Can you? If you can please share, if no. Why not? Other faith traditions have admited making mistakes and regret why not the LDS Church? Edited February 12, 2017 by Johnnie Cake 1
Popular Post bluebell Posted February 12, 2017 Popular Post Posted February 12, 2017 In the gospel topics essay on the priesthood ban the church admits that the teachings on why the ban was in place were wrong. 5
Johnnie Cake Posted February 12, 2017 Author Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) 29 minutes ago, bluebell said: In the gospel topics essay on the priesthood ban the church admits that the teachings on why the ban was in place were wrong. Yeah I thought of that one also, but I then reread the essay and they don't. The church doesn't say it was a mistake or an error or even wrong. They don't take responsibility is it or even admitting that the ban was a mistake. The essay merely states that in 1852 Brigham Young put the ban in place and his successors kept it in place until it was lifted in 1978. They then put it in a historical context...they never admit that the ban was a mistake at all Edited February 12, 2017 by Johnnie Cake 2
bluebell Posted February 12, 2017 Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Yeah I thought of that one also, but I then reread the essay and they don't. The church doesn't say it was a mistake or an error or even wrong. They don't take responsibility is it or even admitting that the ban was a mistake. The essay merely states that in 1852 Brigham Young put the ban in place and his successors kept it in place until it was lifted in 1978. They then put it in a historical context...they never admit that the ban was a mistake at all I don't mean the ban. I'm talking about the reasons given for the ban. Edited February 12, 2017 by bluebell 1
Popular Post cinepro Posted February 12, 2017 Popular Post Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) It's an odd question, because if there's one thing the Church doesn't do it's admit to "mistakes". Obviously, the Church leaders make mistakes all the time, and they even correct the mistakes when they recognize the error. But they don't put out a press release or acknowledge it in a manual. They just change (and sometimes pretend the original mistake and subsequent change were all an intentional part of a grander plan we can't see). So don't look for press releases or search for "mistake" on LDS.org (where, should you do so, you will discover that the Church has no problem admitting that the members make mistakes...) Look for change. The bigger and faster, the better. If you want an interesting understanding of the psychology behind "mistakes" and admitting them, I highly recommend this book: Mistakes Were Made (but Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts Edited February 13, 2017 by cinepro 6
Guest Posted February 12, 2017 Posted February 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: As I've been taking a break from MD&D this past week, laying on a Mexican beach, a random thought entered my mind that I seriously couldn't answer. So I kindly ask it here. Has the LDS Church ever admitted to making a mistake or error? I know the church doesn't apologize but certainly mistakes have been made over the years that they must regret or there have been errors in judgement over the years or there have been positions taken by the church and its various organizations that have caused unintended injury, harm or caused damaged to its members due to its policies or made by the people who have been called to positions of authority...and yet I could not think of a single example of the church ever taking responsibility, expressing regret and admitting that mistakes were made. Can you? If you can please share, if no. Why not? Other faith traditions have admited making mistakes and regret why not the LDS Church? Joesph Smith wrote as scripture his many failings and rebukes from God. He also included rebukes for others from the Lord. The Church has made right many wrong, rather than just giving lip service to it. 2
Rich Hansen Posted February 12, 2017 Posted February 12, 2017 Of course, President Uchtdorf said this in General Conference: "And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine." Of course, he doesn't say general authorities made mistakes or that the Church made mistakes and no specific mistakes are mentioned. The second sentence also walks it back a bit. 2
CV75 Posted February 12, 2017 Posted February 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: As I've been taking a break from MD&D this past week, laying on a Mexican beach, a random thought entered my mind that I seriously couldn't answer. So I kindly ask it here. Has the LDS Church ever admitted to making a mistake or error? I know the church doesn't apologize but certainly mistakes have been made over the years that they must regret or there have been errors in judgement over the years or there have been positions taken by the church and its various organizations that have caused unintended injury, harm or caused damaged to its members due to its policies or made by the people who have been called to positions of authority...and yet I could not think of a single example of the church ever taking responsibility, expressing regret and admitting that mistakes were made. Can you? If you can please share, if no. Why not? Other faith traditions have admited making mistakes and regret why not the LDS Church? Do you have some examples of the authoritative bodies of other faith traditions admitting that their organization made a specific mistake, and expressing regret for it? Just to get the ball rolling and to compare apples and apples. I think it is implied that individuals in the Church in general (whether in a leadership position or not) are prone to making mistakes, but that the Church organization as the body of Christ does not and cannot make mistakes. I also think you should apologize to yourself for occupying your mind with such thoughts while laying on a Mexican beach. What is wrong with you?!?! 2
Johnnie Cake Posted February 12, 2017 Author Posted February 12, 2017 1 hour ago, cinepro said: It's an odd question, because if there's one thing the Church doesn't do it's admit to "mistakes". Obviously, the Church leaders make mistakes all the time, and they even correct the mistakes when they recognize the error. But they don't put out a press release or acknowledge it in a manual. They just change (and sometimes pretend the original mistake and subsequent change were all an intentional part of a grander plan we can't see). So don't look for press releases or search for "mistake" on LDS.org (where, should you do so, you will discover that the Church has no problem admitting that the members make mistakes...) Look for change. The bigger and faster, the better. If you want an interesting understanding of the psychology behind "mistake" and admitting them, I highly recommend this book: Mistakes Were Made (but Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts Of course by using the term "The Church" it's the leaders of the church I'm referring to. So clearly when a human is involved in a decision or a policy is made mistakes happen. But obviously the priesthood and temple ban was a mistake yet never acknowledged as such. Instead the church reverses the policy, wraps it in revelation and moves on never acknowledging the damage incurred by those impacted.
Johnnie Cake Posted February 12, 2017 Author Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rich Hansen said: Of course, President Uchtdorf said this in General Conference: "And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine." Of course, he doesn't say general authorities made mistakes or that the Church made mistakes and no specific mistakes are mentioned. The second sentence also walks it back a bit. Excellent... I forgot about this... I stand corrected. Hat off to president Uchtdorf. This is the kind of step I hope the church can continue to embrace...but wouldn't it be healing if the church acknowledged specific mistakes, policies that were injurious to members...such as its reparative therapy policy at BYU for example Edited February 12, 2017 by Johnnie Cake 1
Johnnie Cake Posted February 12, 2017 Author Posted February 12, 2017 58 minutes ago, CV75 said: Do you have some examples of the authoritative bodies of other faith traditions admitting that their organization made a specific mistake, and expressing regret for it? Just to get the ball rolling and to compare apples and apples. I think it is implied that individuals in the Church in general (whether in a leadership position or not) are prone to making mistakes, but that the Church organization as the body of Christ does not and cannot make mistakes. I also think you should apologize to yourself for occupying your mind with such thoughts while laying on a Mexican beach. What is wrong with you?!?! Here's a list of apologies made by the Pope John Paul ll of the Catholic Church https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope_John_Paul_II 2
Teancum Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/world/americas/pope-francis-bolivia-catholic-church-apology.html?_r=0 1 hour ago, CV75 said: Do you have some examples of the authoritative bodies of other faith traditions admitting that their organization made a specific mistake, and expressing regret for it? Just to get the ball rolling and to compare apples and apples. I think it is implied that individuals in the Church in general (whether in a leadership position or not) are prone to making mistakes, but that the Church organization as the body of Christ does not and cannot make mistakes. I also think you should apologize to yourself for occupying your mind with such thoughts while laying on a Mexican beach. What is wrong with you?!?! https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/world/americas/pope-francis-bolivia-catholic-church-apology.html?_r=0 SANTA CRUZ, Bolivia — Pope Francis offered a direct apology on Thursday for the complicity of the Roman Catholic Church in the oppression of Latin America during the colonial era, even as he called for a global social movement to shatter a “new colonialism” that has fostered inequality, materialism and the exploitation of the poor. 2
Teancum Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112329862 The Southern Baptist Convention issued an apology for its earlier stance on slavery. The issue had split the Baptist church between north and south in 1845. But a century and a half later, in 1995, Southern Baptist officials formally renounced the church's support of slavery and segregation. Richard Land, former head of the Southern Baptist Christian Life Commission, gives more information on the historic apology. 2
Duncan Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 Didn't Elder Marlin K. Jensen apologize some years ago for the Church's participation in Prop 8 or something to that effect?
bluebell Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 1 minute ago, Duncan said: Didn't Elder Marlin K. Jensen apologize some years ago for the Church's participation in Prop 8 or something to that effect? That would be pretty crazy if he had, since at least one apostle has said that the church's participation was God inspired.
Jeanne Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 I am liking some of the examples here..but does anyone have an ."We are sorry. We were wrong". quote anywhere?
bluebell Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 3 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Yeah I thought of that one also, but I then reread the essay and they don't. The church doesn't say it was a mistake or an error or even wrong. They don't take responsibility is it or even admitting that the ban was a mistake. The essay merely states that in 1852 Brigham Young put the ban in place and his successors kept it in place until it was lifted in 1978. They then put it in a historical context...they never admit that the ban was a mistake at all Found the reference- "Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form."
Duncan Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) Just now, bluebell said: That would be pretty crazy if he had, since at least one apostle has said that the church's participation was God inspired. oh great! now I have to look it up!!!!! put down my twizzlers and pickles and everything something to that effect he said! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlin_K._Jensen#Gay_marriage Edited February 13, 2017 by Duncan 1
CV75 Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: Here's a list of apologies made by the Pope John Paul ll of the Catholic Church https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope_John_Paul_II 1 hour ago, Teancum said: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/world/americas/pope-francis-bolivia-catholic-church-apology.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/world/americas/pope-francis-bolivia-catholic-church-apology.html?_r=0 SANTA CRUZ, Bolivia — Pope Francis offered a direct apology on Thursday for the complicity of the Roman Catholic Church in the oppression of Latin America during the colonial era, even as he called for a global social movement to shatter a “new colonialism” that has fostered inequality, materialism and the exploitation of the poor. I don’t see that the Church has done anything like the things mentioned in these links, and because of Article of Faith 2, the Church does not apologize for the sins of her members. Elder Uchtdorf seems to summarize the general Church attitude as follows: “And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine. “I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes. “In the title page of the Book of Mormon we read, “And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.” “This is the way it has always been and will be until the perfect day when Christ Himself reigns personally upon the earth. “It is unfortunate that some have stumbled because of mistakes made by men. But in spite of this, the eternal truth of the restored gospel found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not tarnished, diminished, or destroyed. [My interjection: The eternal truth of the restored gospel is far, far more powerful than the stumbling anyone can do for whatever reason.] “As an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ and as one who has seen firsthand the councils and workings of this Church, I bear solemn witness that no decision of significance affecting this Church or its members is ever made without earnestly seeking the inspiration, guidance, and approbation of our Eternal Father. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. God will not allow His Church to drift from its appointed course or fail to fulfill its divine destiny.” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng
bluebell Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 24 minutes ago, Duncan said: oh great! now I have to look it up!!!!! put down my twizzlers and pickles and everything 😂 1
Johnnie Cake Posted February 13, 2017 Author Posted February 13, 2017 42 minutes ago, bluebell said: Found the reference- "Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form." A disavowal is not the same as acknowledging their own complicity in the promotion of these theories nor the injury the policy had on members of African decent. 2
bluebell Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: A disavowal is not the same as acknowledging their own complicity in the promotion of these theories nor the injury the policy had on members of African decent. It can be. To disavow something means that you don't support it. You asked for references that the church has ever acknowledged making mistakes. To deny support for, and unequivocally condemn, doctrine previously taught over the pulpit seems like a reasonable example. Did you say that the examples had to include an apology or recognize injury to qualify? Edited February 13, 2017 by bluebell 1
Johnnie Cake Posted February 13, 2017 Author Posted February 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, bluebell said: It can be. To disavow something means that you don't support it. You asked for references that the church has ever acknowledged making mistakes. To deny support for, and unequivocally condemn, doctrine previously taught over the pulpit seems like a reasonable example. Did you say that the examples had to include an apology or recognize injury to qualify? Ok touché ... I see where you're coming from...but just imagine the healing that could have come from a acknowledgment of mistake rather than merely a disavowal. I want to give them positive marks for their disavowal...but I'll remain hopeful for an admission of it being a mistake 1
rpn Posted February 13, 2017 Posted February 13, 2017 4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Yeah I thought of that one also, but I then reread the essay and they don't. The church doesn't say it was a mistake or an error or even wrong. They don't take responsibility is it or even admitting that the ban was a mistake. The essay merely states that in 1852 Brigham Young put the ban in place and his successors kept it in place until it was lifted in 1978. They then put it in a historical context...they never admit that the ban was a mistake at all Until the day when we learn exactly how it happened and why it was allowed to continue, how could anyone acknowledge it as a "mistake"?
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