Serious Question: Has the Church Ever Admitted to Making a Mistake?

[Tacenda]

I wish the church would apologise for the many deaths they caused the native Indians in Utah. That gets lost in all the praise for the faithfulness of the pioneers crossing the plains. How could they turnaround and make life hell for others that were in Utah before them?

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Sky said:

We were happy to accept an apology from the State of Illinois -160 years later.  

See: 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2004-04-07/news/0404070268_1_mormons-armand-mauss-latter-day-saints

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2004/04/the-church-grows-stronger?lang=eng

 

I think when someone makes a gesture, they put the other in a somewhat difficult place.  If one doesn't respond, one is rude.  If one does, then it may appear that one was seeking for something when one wasn't.  That doesn'tvmean someone shouldn't try to do what is right, but it might be a good idea to find out if the other really wants it or not.  Sometimes gestures may even make things worse.

It is polite to respond when someone apologizes.  I think it is hard to draw any conclusion from the response itself.  Did the Church leadership ever lobby or suggest in sime way an apology was owed?  That would be much more persuasive in my view.

[Meadowchik]

On Monday, February 13, 2017 at 3:03 AM, Johnnie Cake said:

Ok touché ...  I see where you're coming from...but just imagine the healing that could have come from a acknowledgment of mistake rather than merely a disavowal.  I want to give them positive marks for their disavowal...but I'll remain hopeful for an admission of it being a mistake

Thing about this disavowal is that it leaves open the interpretation that the way the Church did things then was for a reason and part of some grander plan.

[Meadowchik]

In a personal note, my Stake President apologised to my husband and me on behalf of the hurtful actions of another member, the inappropriate and hurtful response of our bishop, and for "anything he had done" which was wrong or hurt us.

It went a long way to helping my heart and mind reconcile to the Church.

Imo the Church may need to develop a better habit of apologising. It would benefit many and promote healing.  On the other hand, is there a contingent in the church that depends too heavily on notions of infallibility? Would members fall away if they knew that what they're investing and perhaps sacrificing could be for something that the Church will disavow and maybe apologise for later?

Edited February 14, 2017 by Meadowchik

[thesometimesaint]

14 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I wonder what Joseph's 33+ wives would call his proposals for plural marriage, I would call it promoting.

As for Brigham, lets see, how many laws against Polygamy did he violate?  Just for starters there's the Illinois state laws first, then common law in the US it was illegal, making it illegal in US territories as well.  After unsuccessfully getting Mormons to follow these laws, the Government started passing more and more progressively stringent laws to try and get Mormons to comply.  In Brigham's lifetime there was the Morrill Act in 1862, then the Poland act in 1874, not to mention the Edmunds and Edmunds tucker acts, but those were after Brigham passed away.  

 

Polygamy was held very close to the vest by JS, and those he asked regardless of the number he had. What was to become Utah wasn't a territory until well after BY left this country.

[pogi]

15 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Is it a sin to ask an organization to merely abide by the same standards it expects its own members to live by?  Sorry you found offense in my asking the question...

I am not personally offended, I am just a bit disheartened by chronic fault-finders.  Even if you were RIGHT about every criticism, every small jab, every nail in the proverbial coffin, I would still be disheartened by your approach. I don't have any problem with questions, but lets be honest, you are not here with an open heart.

You need to understand that there are people here who love this church deeply; it is like a cherished friend to them (warts and all), and your approach is akin to a grade-school student walking behind your good friend and stepping on his heel and kicking at his feet to get him to stumble.  It is maybe even a little playful at first, but over time, the gig gets old.  After a while, you start to recognize who is here with an open heart of dialogue and discourse, and who is here to tear down your friend here a little and there a little (even while being friendly to you and others).  What do you think one friend is going to do when they see another friend being put down day after day after day for their perceived faults by the same person?

I am sure there is a lot of good about you Johnnie, but whatever disillusionment and hurt the church has caused you, it is time to move on.  You don't need to justify your leaving,  flick the chip off your shoulder and find something worthy of your praise.  It is a better, happier way to live.  You don't need to prove anything; you don't need to save us from the church, and yo don't need our approval and validation for leaving.  "Let it be..."

 

[hope_for_things]

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I wish the church would apologise for the many deaths they caused the native Indians in Utah. That gets lost in all the praise for the faithfulness of the pioneers crossing the plains. How could they turnaround and make life hell for others that were in Utah before them?

I'm currently reading Paul Reeve's great book "Religion of a Different Color", and I'm in the chapters about interactions between Mormons and native american's in Utah.  There is so much that I wasn't aware of as far as really poor treatment during the early Utah period.  I'm not condemning the early saints, these issues were complicated, and I personally have early Utah ancestors that lived through and contributed to this history in some ways I'm sure.  However, some formal apologies are in order I believe.  

Personally, I think one of the greatest crimes we've done to native peoples is by taking away their true heritage and assigning them a different label of Lamanites and a false heritage along with it.  This label not only removes them from their actual roots, but it this label of Lamanite has so many negative associations that I believe this is form of racial discrimination that needs to be explored more, and we need to run away from this label as a church.  I realize this is a challenge because of how much the church has invested in the historicity of the BoM, but we are doing damage to these peoples and I find it morally inappropriate.  

[hope_for_things]

19 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

And I am pointing out that God said following the law of the land not based in the Constitution isn't required.  And a member of the First Presidency stated that the law of God must come first.
So whether or not it is illegal seems unimportant to whether it was right.

Its important if you view the social contract and rule of law as important.  If any groups or individually feel like they can just ignore the laws of the land on religious grounds, then we have a problem as a civilized society.  

 The OP asks " Can you?  If you can please share, if no. Why not?  Other faith traditions have admited making mistakes and regret why not the LDS Church? "  Everyone get back on topic or the thread will be closed.

[JLHPROF]

29 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Its important if you view the social contract and rule of law as important.  If any groups or individually feel like they can just ignore the laws of the land on religious grounds, then we have a problem as a civilized society.  

If the laws of the land go against what God requires, I'd say we have an even bigger problem.

[thesometimesaint]

Like "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"?

Exodus 22:18

 

[Ouagadougou]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

If the laws of the land go against what God requires, I'd say we have an even bigger problem.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.  

[JLHPROF]

19 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.  

Now we are going in circles.  I give you these two:

D&C 98:6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;
7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.

Daniel 6:7 All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions.
8 Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.
9 Wherefore king Darius signed the writing and the decree.
10 ¶Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

Then you respond with:
D&C 58:21 Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.

Laws of the land can be right or wrong.
We have no obligation to follow an unrighteous law, nor will God bless us for doing so.

 

[thesometimesaint]

12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

.

Laws of the land can be right or wrong.
We have no obligation to follow an unrighteous law, nor will God bless us for doing so.

God can take can take care of himself.

We individually don't get to decide what is an unrighteous law. IE; Try driving down the wrong side of the highway sometime.

Edited February 14, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[Ouagadougou]

34 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Now we are going in circles.  I give you these two:

D&C 98:6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;
7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.

Daniel 6:7 All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions.
8 Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.
9 Wherefore king Darius signed the writing and the decree.
10 ¶Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

Then you respond with:
D&C 58:21 Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.

Laws of the land can be right or wrong.
We have no obligation to follow an unrighteous law, nor will God bless us for doing so.

 

I see your point...it can be a double-edged sword depending on how one understands the law. 

[Jeanne]

21 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

God can take can take care of himself.

We individually don't get to decide what is an unrighteous law. IE; Try driving down the wrong side of the highway sometime.

I agree.  God help us all if anyone or church can pick which laws of the land they can obey. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

God can take can take care of himself.

We individually don't get to decide what is an unrighteous law. IE; Try driving down the wrong side of the highway sometime.

So Daniel should have obeyed Darius and stopped praying?
The early saints should have obeyed the Edmunds Act and stopped plural marriage 8 years earlier?

Maybe there is more to the uncanonized 1889 revelation than we think.

[thesometimesaint]

14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So Daniel should have obeyed Darius and stopped praying?
The early saints should have obeyed the Edmunds Act and stopped plural marriage 8 years earlier?

Maybe there is more to the uncanonized 1889 revelation than we think.

Forced un-prayer is about as useless as forced conversion. King Darius didn't have a Constitution that guaranteed freedom of religion.

Probably should have. But I see no overriding secular reason to outlaw polygamy between consenting adults.

[Johnnie Cake]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

I am not personally offended, I am just a bit disheartened by chronic fault-finders.  Even if you were RIGHT about every criticism, every small jab, every nail in the proverbial coffin, I would still be disheartened by your approach. I don't have any problem with questions, but lets be honest, you are not here with an open heart.

You need to understand that there are people here who love this church deeply; it is like a cherished friend to them (warts and all), and your approach is akin to a grade-school student walking behind your good friend and stepping on his heel and kicking at his feet to get him to stumble.  It is maybe even a little playful at first, but over time, the gig gets old.  After a while, you start to recognize who is here with an open heart of dialogue and discourse, and who is here to tear down your friend here a little and there a little (even while being friendly to you and others).  What do you think one friend is going to do when they see another friend being put down day after day after day for their perceived faults by the same person?

I am sure there is a lot of good about you Johnnie, but whatever disillusionment and hurt the church has caused you, it is time to move on.  You don't need to justify your leaving,  flick the chip off your shoulder and find something worthy of your praise.  It is a better, happier way to live.  You don't need to prove anything; you don't need to save us from the church, and yo don't need our approval and validation for leaving.  "Let it be..."

 

Great words of wisdom if your characterization of me hit the mark...you see me as the boy poking the stick through the cage of the cat to get a reaction, the nasty antagonist, a provocateur seeking to inflict, tease and otherwise torment the believers in this board...but I am none of these. You see pogi, I am a seeker of truth and I very much wanted the church to be all it claimed to be...seriously who doesn't want eternal life with family and friends...but try as I might, I haven't been able to yet find the ability to make all of the puzzle pieces fit together again.  I come here in the hope that someone might give me the key to make them fit together again...but so far it hasn't happened. 

My heart is open to the possibility that I am mistaken...but I can't seem to make Santa real again...I've seen my parents taking a bite from the cookies left for Santa and putting the gifts out.

If my contribution offends you...don't read my threads or posts.  I hold the church accountable, I test my conclusions, I actually want holes punched in my theories and conclusions, that would indicate that they are wrong...so that if necessary I can reevaluate them...you see pogi...I'm a truth seeker...I gave up a belief system that had given me much joy when I was a believer...but also a lot of pain as well...so if my approach doesn't work for you, I'm sincerely sorry.

As for moving on...it will happen...I just haven't reached that point of totally giving up on Mormonism and so I keep posting....and I choose to post here rather than other boards which cater to a more non believing crowd...so I hope you'll have patience with me and my posts as I work through the issues I have with the church.  But I will also seriously consider your invitation to leave as well...I don't want to over stay the generous privilege it is to post here in this community

I believe my heart is sincere and in the right place...and I have no delusions of changing the mind of anyone who posts here...I am here for my own personal desires to just test my conclusions before I eventually do move on...help me..Obi Wan Kenobi..You're my only hope :-)

Edited February 14, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[rongo]

4 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

....and I choose to post here rather than other boards which cater to a more non believing crowd...so I hope you'll have patience with me and my posts as I work through the issues I have with the church. 

This is actually not true, though, is it? 

You sometimes do a lot of posting at at least one other message board that mocks the Church (and us over here) --- sometimes joining in the making fun of us here.

From the looks of it, it can sometimes look like you're just having fun stirring up the idiots over here, rather than earnestly trying to "work through the issues" you have with the Church.

[hope_for_things]

23 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I believe my heart is sincere and in the right place...and I have no delusions of changing the mind of anyone who posts here...I am here for my own personal desires to just test my conclusions before I eventually do move on...

You're doing great, I like your posts Johnnie, keep them coming as there are others who are going through a similar journey and its important to write and talk and process these ideas.  

My experience has been that as my beliefs have changed, one of the core things that changed for me was the ideas of exclusive truth, exclusive authority, and exclusive access to the divine or even a construct of what the divine is.  As I let go of all those very Mormon constructs, I felt a large burden lifted, and now I don't get triggered as often by those who still believe very devoutly in those constructs that I too once believed.    

Follow your instincts and keep exploring.  Research and discovery is always a good thing and is necessary for real growth.  An analogy I like is that of a body builder.  You have to break down your muscles and push yourself to the point of exhaustion to really grow.  Same thing with intellectual and spiritual endeavors.  Too often our church culture tries to warn people to stay away from unapproved sources of information.  While that might be wise counsel for a child, its insulting to and very unhealthy advice for adults.  Treat us like adults, engage with the critical debate and thought.  Don't hide from it like an ostrich and try to shame those that want to explore.  

[Johnnie Cake]

41 minutes ago, rongo said:

This is actually not true, though, is it? 

While it is true that I post on other boards...99.9% of my online activity is here. 

Quote

You sometimes do a lot of posting at at least one other message board that mocks the Church (and us over here) --- sometimes joining in the making fun of us here.

As far as the charge of me making fun of (you) here...I don't know that I would call my "other" posts as making fun of anyone here...but I do no self editing there as I do here...so I am more free handed with my word choice there than I am here.  It is true that that other board does mock the church and I probably have been guilty of joining in at times....but I would probably use the word vent rather than mock.

Quote

From the looks of it, it can sometimes look like you're just having fun stirring up the idiots over here, rather than earnestly trying to "work through the issues" you have with the Church.

Yeah I get that...but I sincerely try my best to be respectful and even tone down my posts so as not to offend...but I acknowledge that at times I have been unsuccessful in doing so...but give me some credit for my attempt.  And I honestly do not consider a single member here an idiot.  From my experience this board is filled with thoughtful intelligent believers.  I consider it a privilege to be able to post here and choose to do so because it challenges me and I believe makes me stretch intellectually while I accept that others may not think anything I post is intelligent.  I hope I offer something that contributes to the board rather than takes away from it.  I certainly hold the members of this board accountable and expect no less from MD&D poster towards my  posts.

 

Edited February 14, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[cinepro]

6 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm currently reading Paul Reeve's great book "Religion of a Different Color", and I'm in the chapters about interactions between Mormons and native american's in Utah.  There is so much that I wasn't aware of as far as really poor treatment during the early Utah period.  I'm not condemning the early saints, these issues were complicated, and I personally have early Utah ancestors that lived through and contributed to this history in some ways I'm sure.  However, some formal apologies are in order I believe.  

Personally, I think one of the greatest crimes we've done to native peoples is by taking away their true heritage and assigning them a different label of Lamanites and a false heritage along with it.  This label not only removes them from their actual roots, but it this label of Lamanite has so many negative associations that I believe this is form of racial discrimination that needs to be explored more, and we need to run away from this label as a church.  I realize this is a challenge because of how much the church has invested in the historicity of the BoM, but we are doing damage to these peoples and I find it morally inappropriate.  

I'll just leave this here...

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Great words of wisdom if your characterization of me hit the mark...you see me as the boy poking the stick through the cage of the cat to get a reaction, the nasty antagonist, a provocateur seeking to inflict, tease and otherwise torment the believers in this board...but I am none of these.   You see pogi, I am a seeker of truth

No, you are generally pretty friendly to the people on the board.  I don't view you in that light at all.  It is not the people here that you have a problem with for the most part...it is the church.  Johnnie, when it comes to the church, are you really a "seeker of truth" or are a seeker of fault?  Are you seeking to hear a good word, or to disclose an empty religion?  To find the sacred, or expose the naked?

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

but try as I might, I haven't been able to yet find the ability to make all of the puzzle pieces fit together again.  I come here in the hope that someone might give me the key to make them fit together again...but so far it hasn't happened. 

The key only works when you use it.  If your intent is to find truth in the church as you claim, then you are going about it all wrong.  The truth is, you will find whatever it is you are looking for in the church.  Truth is here if you want it, and so are the mistakes and imperfections.  If you want to broaden your perspective, you have to get yourself out of the trench that you have dug for yourself.  It is a comfortable trench for you...very predictable.  If any one wants to know where Johnnie stands, it is in that trench over yonder, digging around for more mistakes and lies.  

...but the key is in your hand, and the door is over here...out of that trench. 

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

My heart is open to the possibility that I am mistaken...but I can't seem to make Santa real again...I've seen my parents taking a bite from the cookies left for Santa and putting the gifts out.

Is your heart open?  Are you really open to believing in "Santa" again?  Or are you positive that you have seen your parents "taking a bite from the cookies and putting the gifts out"?  If there is NO room for "Santa", then your heart isn't really open at all.

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

If my contribution offends you...don't read my threads or posts. 

I am not offended at all and I actually find some of your posts and threads quite interesting, but you do come off as a bit of a bully, not to the posters, but to the church.  What I know is that there are two wolves battling within each of us, and the wolf that survives is the one that you feed - one wolf is hope, the other wolf is doubt.  What are you feeding here Johnnie?  Alma 32 doesn't work on doubt.  The key is hope...use it.  That requires uncertainty.  If you can admit that you are uncertain, then there is room for hope. 

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I believe my heart is sincere and in the right place...

I hope so, but you don't seem to be aware of how you come off.  It seems to me that you are stuck in the trenches of doubt.  Keep digging around the same places and you will keep finding the same dirt.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2017 by pogi

[Johnnie Cake]

16 minutes ago, pogi said:

you are generally pretty friendly to the people on the board.  I don't view you in that light at all.  It is not the people here that you have a problem with for the most part...it is the church.  Johnnie, when it comes to the church, are you really a "seeker of truth" or are a seeker of fault?  Are you seeking to hear a good word, or to disclose an empty religion?  To find the sacred, or expose the naked?

The key only works when you use it.  If your intent is to find truth in the church as you claim, then you are going about it all wrong.  The truth is, you will find whatever it is you are looking for in the church.  Truth is here if you want it, and so are the mistakes and imperfections.  If you want to broaden your perspective, you have to get yourself out of the trench that you have dug for yourself.  It is a comfortable trench for you...very predictable.  If any one wants to know where Johnnie stands, it is in that trench over yonder, digging around for more mistakes and lies.  

...but the key is in your hand, and the door is over here...out of that trench. 

Is your heart open?  Are you really open to believing in "Santa" again?  Or are you positive that you have seen your parents "taking a bite from the cookies and putting the gifts out"?  If there is NO room for "Santa", then your heart isn't really open at all.

I am not offended at all and I actually find some of your posts and threads quite interesting, but you do come off as a bit of a bully, not to the posters, but to the church.  What I know is that there are two wolves battling within each of us, and the wolf that survives is the one that you feed - one wolf is hope, the other wolf is doubt.  What are you feeding here Johnnie?  Alma 32 doesn't work on doubt.  The key is hope...use it.  That requires uncertainty.  If you can admit that you are uncertain, then there is room for hope. 

I hope so, but you don't seem to be aware of how you come off.  It seems to me that you are stuck in the trenches of doubt.  Keep digging around the same places and you will keep finding the things. 

 

 

 

I'm going to ignore the condescension implied in your post...as I did in your earlier one...  Ok maybe not.  pogi, you don't know me nor my journey...but you really have the advantage in that you are making your post on MD&D and I can't really reply as I would desire to reply.  Maybe its just me...but you're condescension is getting stuck in my throat.  I believe that you are coming from an honest and well meaning place...but to me...your comments come off as very patronizing and superior.  I don't expect you to see them that way or to see the world or the church for that matter from my perspective...so I'll just leave it at that. I've said too much. Time for admin to lock this puppy ( the thread not me) down and tuck it into bed.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Meadowchik]

14 hours ago, pogi said:

I am not personally offended, I am just a bit disheartened by chronic fault-finders.  Even if you were RIGHT about every criticism, every small jab, every nail in the proverbial coffin, I would still be disheartened by your approach. I don't have any problem with questions, but lets be honest, you are not here with an open heart.

You need to understand that there are people here who love this church deeply; it is like a cherished friend to them (warts and all), and your approach is akin to a grade-school student walking behind your good friend and stepping on his heel and kicking at his feet to get him to stumble.  It is maybe even a little playful at first, but over time, the gig gets old.  After a while, you start to recognize who is here with an open heart of dialogue and discourse, and who is here to tear down your friend here a little and there a little (even while being friendly to you and others).  What do you think one friend is going to do when they see another friend being put down day after day after day for their perceived faults by the same person?

I am sure there is a lot of good about you Johnnie, but whatever disillusionment and hurt the church has caused you, it is time to move on.  You don't need to justify your leaving,  flick the chip off your shoulder and find something worthy of your praise.  It is a better, happier way to live.  You don't need to prove anything; you don't need to save us from the church, and yo don't need our approval and validation for leaving.  "Let it be..."

 

Or, he can stay and talk. We can handle it