The Holy Ghost's probation

[theplains]

According to the contemporary accounts of the Nauvoo discourses of the Joseph Smith, he said, 
"the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he 
may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has."

This seems to say that the Holy Ghost is currently a man in a state of probation.  Which course
that Jesus passed through will the Holy Ghost pass through?

Thanks,
Jim

[JAHS]

I would assume he means that the Holy Ghost will come to earth to obtain a body and experience a mortal life.

Joseph Smith also once said that, "The Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and is waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did."[Joseph Smith, Encyclopedia of Joseph Smith's Teachings, edited by Larry E. Dahl and Donald Q. Cannon (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1997)]

But I think any of this is pure speculation.

President Joseph Fielding Smith was asked if the Holy Ghost would get a body and he said:
"There is so much in relation to the gospel that we are required to do and so many commandments to observe and ordinances to receive in order that we may obtain an exaltation in the kingdom of God, that we should have no time to enter into speculation in relation to the Holy Ghost. 
Too many members of the Church bother themselves about something which does not concern us and which has not been revealed. They neglect the weightier matters and fail to seek for the light and truth which is revealed and also to obtain and be true to the ordinances and covenants so essential to our salvation."(Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 2 p. 148)

[Duncan]

I think the Holy Ghost already came in man form, Harlan Sanders. Anytime I eat KFC I feel inspired and what is more the first KFC chain restaurant opened in Utah, oooooooohhhhhh!!!!!

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by Duncan

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, theplains said:

According to the contemporary accounts of the Nauvoo discourses of the Joseph Smith, he said, 
"the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he 
may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has."

This seems to say that the Holy Ghost is currently a man in a state of probation.  Which course
that Jesus passed through will the Holy Ghost pass through?

Come to earth, and presumably suffer his life to be taken.  After all, according to another discourse the Holy Gost is also known as "God the witness, or testator."  There is no stronger testimony than one sealed by blood.

4 hours ago, JAHS said:

I would assume he means that the Holy Ghost will come to earth to obtain a body and experience a mortal life.

Joseph Smith also once said that, "The Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and is waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did."[Joseph Smith, Encyclopedia of Joseph Smith's Teachings, edited by Larry E. Dahl and Donald Q. Cannon (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1997)]

Joseph said that much earlier than the quote the OP referenced.  At some point the first quote you provide here has to become past tense.  

And it has to refer to more than merely coming to a mortal life and gaining a body.  We all have done that.  "A similar course to the son of man" implies something closer to Christ's life than the average man.

I think the OP quote refers to the Holy Ghost having a mission similar to the Savior's, minus the atonement of course.  Sooner or later the personage of the Holy Ghost has to receive a body, and a resurrection.  And they will likely live a life testifying and witnessing of God, Christ, and the gospel (including perhaps martyrdom) in accordance with their role in the eternal covenant.

Edited February 11, 2017 by JLHPROF

[JAHS]

8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

 Sooner or later the personage of the Holy Ghost has to receive a body, and a resurrection.  And they will likely live a life testifying and witnessing of God, Christ, and the gospel (including perhaps martyrdom) in accordance with their role in the eternal covenant.

I agree it is possible that the Holy Ghost might receive a body but I don't see why that has to be. He would have to be the last person to get a body and the last person to die because everyone else would need him as His role as the Holy Ghost before that time and before everyone is resurrected, both here and in the spirit world. By then there would be no time left and no people left for him to witness and testify of God to because they all will have already lived, died, and have been resurrected. I don't know if that made any sense; I know it makes my head hurt thinking about it. But He is already considered a God without a body so why can't He just remain as the Holy Ghost?

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

I agree it is possible that the Holy Ghost might receive a body but I don't see why that has to be. He would have to be the last person to get a body and the last person to die because everyone else would need him as His role as the Holy Ghost before that time and before everyone is resurrected, both here and in the spirit world. By then there would be no time left and no people left for him to witness and testify of God to because they all will have already lived, died, and have been resurrected. I don't know if that made any sense; I know it makes my head hurt thinking about it. But He is already considered a God without a body so why can't He just remain as the Holy Ghost?

Because as Joseph Smith taught those with bodies ALWAYS have power over spirits.  We are capable of casting out or embracing the adversary and the same with the Holy Ghost.  In order to become as God is and not be subject to everyone else a body is required for him too.  And if we were to accept the OP quote at face value he may already have received one.

[Tacenda]

I have always felt that the Holy Ghost was Jesus Christ/God. He left the HG with us when He left this earth, IMO. Or, I guess the HG could be our guardian angel, so Christ's helper. 

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Because as Joseph Smith taught those with bodies ALWAYS have power over spirits.  We are capable of casting out or embracing the adversary and the same with the Holy Ghost.  In order to become as God is and not be subject to everyone else a body is required for him too.  And if we were to accept the OP quote at face value he may already have received one.

I think you are assuming way too much about the Holy Ghost. I think I will stick with what I quoted from President Smith:

"Too many members of the Church bother themselves about something which does not concern us and which has not been revealed."

[Benjamin Seeker]

EDIT: I'd like to clarify that I approach this topic (and others) from a historical perspective, meaning I'm not making any prescriptions of belief or describing my own beliefs. I'm just outlining an obvious possibility of what JS taught in the Nauvoo period.

In the Nauvoo period, it seems pretty clear that Joseph Smith had reached a theology of the Godhead in which God the Father and all the Gods before him had gone through a mortal probation in a similar manner to Jesus Christ, redeeming a world or worlds through an atonement. According to this theology, Jesus Christ would become like God the Father, and the Holy would become like Jesus Christ and fulfill that role. Following are the relevant quotes illustrating that theology (some have already been fully or partially cited).

On Heavenly Father having already redeemed a world or worlds, the King Follett discourse is the clearest source (April 1844). While, the collated version popularly available in the past can easily be interpreted as Jesus Christ literally did things he saw the father do (i.e. died for others sins, was resurrected), George Laub's notes on the discourse provide a concrete detail. He wrote, 

Quote

...Jesus Christ spoke in this manner; I do as my Father before me did. Well what did the Father do? Why he went and took a body and went to redeem a world in the flesh and had power to lay down his life and to take it up again...

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1844/7Apr44.html

George Laub's inclusion of the phrase "redeem a world in the flesh" lines up with Joseph's statements, already cited above, about the Holy Ghost and the progression of the God head. These quotes are from the same time period. In August 1843, Franklin Richards recorded that JS taught,

Quote

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1843/27Aug43.html

Even more revealing are George Laub's notes on the Sermon at the Grove (June 1844), JS' second most famous sermon following the King Follett sermon. A portion of Laub's notes read,

Quote

But the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body. as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies for the Saviour Says the work that my father did do i also & those are the works he took himself a body & then laid down his life that he might take it up again

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1844/16Jun44.html

Notice that the full idea, cut short in the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith version cited earlier, includes the entire idea of the progression of the Gods, implying that each having "laid down his life that he might take it up again."

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by Benjamin Seeker

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I have always felt that the Holy Ghost was Jesus Christ/God. He left the HG with us when He left this earth, IMO. Or, I guess the HG could be our guardian angel, so Christ's helper. 

This was my thoughts also.  I thought as a spirit of God..that he would remain so and always a part of the Godhead.  I am surprised because who would be more worthy than the Holy Ghost to bypass mortality and have instant exaltation?  I am really surprised

[JLHPROF]

51 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I think you are assuming way too much about the Holy Ghost. I think I will stick with what I quoted from President Smith:

"Too many members of the Church bother themselves about something which does not concern us and which has not been revealed."

Except I am trying to avoid assumptions, and just read Joseph's teachings.  If Joseph was making assumptions then I am comfortable sticking with those.

Joseph taught:

1. The Holy Ghost was in a probationary state.

2. Those with bodies have power over spirits without bodies.

3. The Holy Ghost's probation will be a similar course to Christ's.

4. The Holy Ghost is also called God the Witness or Testator.

5. The final judgement will result in God's children  (incl the HG) receiving their resurrected bodies and glories.

No assumptions needed on my part.

[JAHS]

16 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Except I am trying to avoid assumptions, and just read Joseph's teachings.  If Joseph was making assumptions then I am comfortable sticking with those.

Joseph taught:

1. The Holy Ghost was in a probationary state.

2. Those with bodies have power over spirits without bodies.

3. The Holy Ghost's probation will be a similar course to Christ's.

4. The Holy Ghost is also called God the Witness or Testator.

5. The final judgement will result in God's children  (incl the HG) receiving their resurrected bodies and glories.

No assumptions needed on my part.

You are assuming Joseph Smith was speaking true doctrine and not just an opinion. Do we ignore what the other President Smith said about it not being revealed yet?

[CV75]

18 hours ago, theplains said:

According to the contemporary accounts of the Nauvoo discourses of the Joseph Smith, he said, 
"the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he 
may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has."

This seems to say that the Holy Ghost is currently a man in a state of probation.  Which course
that Jesus passed through will the Holy Ghost pass through?

Thanks,
Jim

If this is the only place anyone said Joseph Smith said something like this, I'm not sure how reliable the report it is.

[Benjamin Seeker]

38 minutes ago, CV75 said:

If this is the only place anyone said Joseph Smith said something like this, I'm not sure how reliable the report it is.

Read my response above. There is a second occurrence with even more info from the same time period.

Also didn't Franklin Richards, who recorded the statement you're referring to, have the official responsibility of recording JS' journal or have some official record keeping responsibility?

Edited February 11, 2017 by Benjamin Seeker

[Calm]

5 hours ago, JAHS said:

 But He is already considered a God without a body so why can't He just remain as the Holy Ghost?

Why do we bother to be resurrected if our bodies don't make a significant difference in abilities?

Did Christ needs others to witness to him?  There are also other worlds besides ours.  Perhaps another person serving as the Holy Ghost for another world can cover the time period needed for him to get his own body or perhaps he already passed through that experience in another world and can receive a body at anytime, anywhere including the Millennium.

[JAHS]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why do we bother to be resurrected if our bodies don't make a significant difference in abilities?

Did Christ needs others to witness to him?  There are also other worlds besides ours.  Perhaps another person serving as the Holy Ghost for another world can cover the time period needed for him to get his own body or perhaps he already passed through that experience in another world and can receive a body at anytime, anywhere including the Millennium.

Perhaps......perhaps......That's my point. It's still all speculation, even though Joseph Smith made a few offhanded remarks about it, other prophets say we don't know because it has not been revealed. I would bet most current Apostles and prophets would say that nothing for certain has been revealed about it yet. 

[Benjamin Seeker]

4 hours ago, JAHS said:

...even though Joseph Smith made a few offhanded remarks about it...

(My comments here are a general response and not a specific attack on your comment, JAHS)

The June 1844 statement about the Holy Ghost cannot be labeled an offhand comment. This statement is from the Sermon in the Grove, which was JS' followup to his landmark King Follett address, and this teaching about the Holy Ghost is an extension of the theology laid out in the King Follett sermon (see my 1st response in this thread). In weighing the importance of JS' comments here it's important to remember that the King Follett sermon isn't just a big deal to modern readers interested in JS views on the nature of man and God, it was also a huge deal for JS at the time. It was a big reveal at general conference, through which he was demonstrating his prophethood in the face of criticism and controversy. As is well known, there was a high level controversy, probably just as much as ever before, during the Nauvoo period surrounding JS, his practices, and his teachings. Several comments from the King Follett sermon demonstrate that it was intended as a significant reveal to help steady things.

Quote

The apostle says this is eternal life, to know God and Jesus Christ, whom he has sent. If any man enquire what kind of a being is God, if he will search diligently his own heart, if the declaration of the apostle by true, he will realize that he has not eternal life, there can be eternal life on no other principle. My first object is, to find out the character of the only wise and true God, and if I should be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to your hearts so that the spirit seals it upon you, let every man and woman henceforth put their hand on their mouth and never say any thing against the man of God again; but if I fail, it becomes my duty to renounce all my pretensions to revelations, inspirations, &c., and if all are pretensions to God, they will all be as bad off as I am at any rate. There is not a man but would breathe out an anathema, if they knew I was a false prophet; and some would feel authorized to take away my life.

If any man is authorized to take away my life, who says I am a false teacher: then upon the same principle am I authorized to take away the life of every false teacher, and where would be the end of blood, and who would not be the sufferer. But no man is authorized to take away life in consequence of their religion; which all laws and governments ought to tolerate, right or wrong. If I show verily, that I have the truth of God, and show that ninety-nine out of a hundred are false teachers, while they pretend to hold the keys of God, and to kill them because they are false teachers, it would deluge the whole world with blood.

Quote

the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I had the trump of a arch angel, I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever;

Quote

no man knows my history; I cannot tell it. I shall never undertake it; if I had not experienced what I have, I should not have known it myself. I never did harm any man since I have been born in the world. My voice is always for peace, I cannot lie down until all my work is finished. I never think any evil, nor any thing to the harm of my fellow man.--- When I am called at the trump of the ark-angel, and weighed in the balance, you will all know me then. I add no more. God bless you all. Amen.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1844/7Apr44.html

The Sermon in the Grove is a follow up and extension of the King Follett sermon, and again it is meant as a significant response to criticism and controversy. It is a public sermon at the grounds near the temple. Hear are a couple of pertinent quotes:

Quote

Now, you know that of late some malicious and corrupt men have sprung up and apostatized from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and they declare that the Prophet believes in a plurality of Gods, and, lo and behold! we have discovered a very great secret, they cry -- "The Prophet says there are many Gods, and this proves that he has fallen."  It has been my intention for a long time to take up this subject and lay it clearly before the people, and show what my faith is in relation to this interesting matter.

Quote

I testify again, as the Lord lives, God never will acknowledge any traitors or apostates. Any man who will betray the Catholics will betray you; and if he will betray me, he will betray you. All men are liars who say they are of the true Church without the revelations of Jesus Christ and the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which is after the order of the Son of God.

It is in the order of heavenly things that God should always send a new dispensation into the world when men have apostatized from the truth and lost the priesthood, but when men come out and build upon other men's foundations, they do it on their own responsibility, without authority from God; and when the floods come and the winds blow, their foundations will be found to be sand, and their whole fabric will crumble to dust.

Did I build on any other man's foundation? I have got all the truth which the Christian world possessed, and an independent revelation in the bargain, and God will bear me off triumphant. I will drop this subject. I wish I could speak for three or four hours; but it is not expedient on account of the rain; I would still go on, and show you proof upon proofs; all the Bible is equal in support of this doctrine, one part as another. 

http://emp.byui.edu/jexj/courses/sermon_in_the_grove.htm

It is in this context of reasserting his prophethood once again that JS takes his teaching from several months earlier:

Quote

Jesus said, as the Father hat power in himself, even so hath the Son power; to do what? why what the Father did, that answer is obvious; in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again.

and expands it to (EDIT: I had the wrong quote here at first... sorry!):

Quote

But the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body. as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies for the Saviour Says the work that my father did do i also & those are the works he took himself a body & then laid down his life that he might take it up again

Now, I'm not arguing that this should be considered officially revealed, or anything along those lines. I'm just pointing out that the teachings in the King Follett Sermon and the Sermon in the Grove were intended to be significant, and they were intended to be a manifestation of JS' prophethood. For these reasons, I don't think we can get away with labeling his teaching about the Holy Ghost an offhand remark!

Edited February 12, 2017 by Benjamin Seeker

[Calm]

3 hours ago, JAHS said:

Perhaps......perhaps......That's my point. It's still all speculation, even though Joseph Smith made a few offhanded remarks about it, other prophets say we don't know because it has not been revealed. I would bet most current Apostles and prophets would say that nothing for certain has been revealed about it yet. 

I agree it is primarily speculation.  I don't think we have enough information that has been confirmed as revelation (even if Joseph claimed he was speaking as a prophet, I believe we need multiple prophets teaching to confirm doctrine) rather than just speculation to even begin to imagine what the destiny of the HG is.  Though I do believe we know enough to say he will end up with a body at sometime, otherwise the Plan of Salvation doesn't apply to him and we are taught he is a child of God, so it must.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Calm

[JAHS]

25 minutes ago, Calm said:

I agree it is primarily speculation.  I don't think we have enough information that has been confirmed as revelation (even if Joseph claimed he was speaking as a prophet, I believe we need multiple prophets teaching to confirm doctrine) rather than just speculation to even begin to imagine what the destiny of the HG is.  Though I do believe we know enough to say he will end up with a body at sometime, otherwise the Plan of Salvation doesn't apply to him and we are taught he is a child of God, so it must.

This gets a little confusing because maybe because He is already a God He doesn't need a body or the plan of salvation. Jesus was considered a God before He got a body. The main reason He came to earth was so He could perform the atonement for us, which did require a body.

[Calm]

He may notbneed a body to be God, but that doesnt mean he doesn't need a body for other things.

[CMZ]

No, the Holy Ghost will not remain without a body forever.

[JAHS]

34 minutes ago, CMZ said:

No, the Holy Ghost will not remain without a body forever.

I don't know how people can be so sure of this. President Joseph Fielding Smith also said:

"I have never troubled myself about the Holy Ghost whether he will sometime have a body or not because it is not in any way essential to my salvation. He is a member of the Godhead, with great power and authority, with a most wonderful mission which must be performed by a spirit. This has satisfied me without delving into mysteries that would be of no particular benefit." (Conf. Rep., Oct., 1952, pp. 59-60.)

If this prophet of God doesn't know and doesn't confirm what Joseph Smith said, how can anyone be certain of it?

 

[CMZ]

Because there is a general course that all people take unless they were cast out of heaven as one of Satan's hosts. For someone as righteous as the Holy Ghost to be forever denied a body would not make sense.

[JLHPROF]

24 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Because there is a general course that all people take unless they were cast out of heaven as one of Satan's hosts. For someone as righteous as the Holy Ghost to be forever denied a body would not make sense.

It would give every resurrected being the authority to rule over a member of the godhead and retain more power than he does.  That makes no sense to me either.

 

[CV75]

22 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Read my response above. There is a second occurrence with even more info from the same time period.

Also didn't Franklin Richards, who recorded the statement you're referring to, have the official responsibility of recording JS' journal or have some official record keeping responsibility?

Thank you--just making sure the homework got done for me!

In this sense, as Saviors on Mount Zion we all do what we saw the Father do, and also what we saw the Christ do. We came to earth, we took a body and we redeem a world in the flesh. We have power to lay down our life and to take it up again, figuratively (spiritually) and literally (physically).

When the Father came down, He did not have power within Himself to birth Himself; He relied on the merits of the first parents and His own earthly parents. He likewise relied upon a Christ through whom He had power to lay down His life and to take it up again (if He wasn't that Christ having that power within Himself).

How did we as pre-mortal spirits see -- truly see -- the Father do what he did? I think He told us and showed us in various ways in the pre-mortal world. Or perhaps as co-eternal we possessed that intelligence as it came to pass. How do we truly see the Christ do what He did? I can confidently say in the same manner, but witnessing His works as spirits and then in this world by receiving the testimony of His servants and the Holy Ghost, and becoming more and more like Him.

So I take these writings to mean that the Holy Ghost is a “Spiritual body” in the same way as we are, and He will do what He sees us do, which is what the Father and Son have done. It may be interesting to consider the pre-mortal experience as a “Probation,” but that pretty much describes the conditions of a war in heaven. We all had and have different roles, and the Holy Ghost is now fulfilling His. Some say we all had a chance taking on this role, and while it fits with the "each doing what They did" framework, is a hard one to justify by these sources.